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  #51  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline View Post
The blame doesnt go on Cook though. It goes on the coaching to put him in while we had a Trevor Robinson playing pretty well. Once Cook got back in the rotation, the offense went kaput.
And that about sums up my thoughts on Cook.
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  #52  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

I have no problem with Cook.
And he is not one of the Bengals problems.
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  #53  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

Nobody deserves a pass. Giving passes is for losers.
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  #54  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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No this is not a thread defending Kyle Cook and how honorable he was those last 4 games. Cook throughout his career has been above average at center and was not even close to his normal in 2012. If not for the new rule he would've been placed on season ending IR. I just don't think he had enough time to get back 100% for those last few games. Cook was bad but we can all agree here that he can be much better. I do believe he and Robinson will have a great battle next season in training camp.
If cook gets a pass for not being 100% the coach that put him in the game needs to be fired. immediately.
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  #55  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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I have no problem with Cook.
And he is not one of the Bengals problems.
Robinson > Cook
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  #56  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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The season is over and the finger pointing at Cook should be too. Nothing we do or say on these boards will change the fact that come training camp next year, Kyle Cook will go in as the starter. It should be a good battle to see who will start the season opener as the starter though. I think Trevor Robinson can work on building some strength this offseason and over-take Cook as the starter. Kyle Cook will be fully healed and 100%, so there shouldnt be any excuses. The only issue I see forthcoming, is the coaching staffs inability to chose the better player. We all know the line played worlds better when Robinson was starting and I would like to think the coaching staff knows this now that the season is over and the tape-watching has begun.

There have been a lot of mock drafts with us taking Barrett Jones in the 1st or 2nd round or Frederick in the late 2nd round, but I have a very hard time believing they will pull the trigger on a Center in the draft. They have money owed to Kyle Cook and they have a young center with one years experience under his belt who played well enough to start the NFL. Why bring in another Center? I just dont see it happening. I would rather use the pick on another weapon for Andy or shoring up our LB or Secondary issue on the defense.
There wont be excuses and there wont be a fair battle in camp.. Cook gets paid well he will start even though it hurts this football team.
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  #57  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by BengalsFan024 View Post
If cook gets a pass for not being 100% the coach that put him in the game needs to be fired. immediately.
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  #58  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Ive been waiting and wanting him to be removed from the head coaching position for a few years now... I understood the lock out year. And i know marvins strategy..

The more your paid the more you play.
And always play an underperforming vet before a talented rookie.
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  #59  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

Until I hear what exactly Cooks flaws were that supposedly ruined the offense down the stretch I am going to consider that BS.

Cook presence was not the downfall of the offense this year.

Those who believe it was should provide some examples of game changing plays that Cook screwed up on because I can't remember any.
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  #60  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by yellowxdiscipline View Post
I just wonder what this teams obsession with lower center prospects... It all started with Gutcheck who has a 4th rounder, he lost his job to an undrafted Cook, who almost and by all rights should have lost his job to an undrafted Robinson. Put some damn value into the position and draft a guy in the first three rounds and let that be the end of it for a while. My point being is that we need to find another Richie Braham and stop settling for these off the street guys that fall out of favor after 2 seasons. I love what Robinson gave us when he was filling in, but I dont think he's a long term solution at the position, he's a good player that will be an immediate impact in case of injury. Cook is average, and thats all that he will be, the fact that an undrafted rookie came in and the offense played better with him speaks to his expendability. If we can somehow manage to land a guy like Barrett Jones in the second round I think we would be set for a while.
Agreed, it's not like Centre is some half-arsed position, it's pretty crucial to the line. Draft position doesnt always equate to talent, but like you say its like we plug in a guy and leave it at that. I liked Robinson in there, there's not a great sample size to say he's the answer, but he looked better than Cook in there.
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  #61  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:01 PM
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bengals Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
Seems those that actually make a living grading players would not agree with your assessment.
Kyle Cook will get another shot to be the starting center. he is under contract and they will not cut him.We so need to upgrade that positon.I would cut him or trade him if possible,draft the guy from bama,make him my starter with trevor as his back-up for rest and all that.We can wish all we want, this staff will do something stupid and keep him.I have not seen him be a stud on the line yet and i believe andy doesn't trust him.
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  #62  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

I just don't know how the correlation between us having a great run-game/clicking offense with Robinson and insane pressure up the middle, sacks galore, mediocre run-game with Cook is lost on our coaching staff.

It's like we don't want to hurt Cook's feelings or something, we need a dose of Harbaugh-style tough love realism in this franchise imo.
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  #63  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by TheCincinnatiKid View Post
Agreed, it's not like Centre is some half-arsed position, it's pretty crucial to the line. Draft position doesnt always equate to talent, but like you say its like we plug in a guy and leave it at that. I liked Robinson in there, there's not a great sample size to say he's the answer, but he looked better than Cook in there.
How did Robinson look better than Cook in the offense?

Both made mistakes in certain games.

Is there any substance behind your observation or are you like everyone else and blame Cook because the entire offense stunk down the stretch?
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  #64  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

dude...did you watch the games?

I'm not trying to be facetious, but it was night and day when they made the switch, or the change to a "center-rotation," which may be the stupidest idea/phrase ever conceived.
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  #65  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

Cook is our weakest player on offrense.

Rey weakest player on defense.

These two positions and getting a long term solution at safety to go with reggie are biggest areas of need.

The Redskins drafted their stud running back in the sixth round.
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  #66  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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dude...did you watch the games?

I'm not trying to be facetious, but it was night and day when they made the switch, or the change to a "center-rotation," which may be the stupidest idea/phrase ever conceived.
Give me some examples, if you can.

Other than the Watt sack, in the 1st Qtr, I didn't see Cook play that bad in the playoff game.

Leonard missed the chip on that stunt and Watt shouldn't be blocked one on one.

Other than Hampton getting 1 pressure in the 2nd Steelers game (Robinson also got blown up once by Hampton in the 1st Steelers game) I didn't see Cook play that bad individually either.

I mean if I'm missing something then please refresh my memory.

The whole offense struggling was not a result of putting Cook back in there.
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  #67  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

I've got to take a cost/benefit view on players. Didn't find Cook or Robinson in the top 10 cap hits for centers in 2012 or 2013. Want a player with fewer flaws - spend more at that position - be prepared to have to cut someone in some other place... say... Whitworth or Andre who are both in top 10 cap hits for tackle?

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cap-hit/center/

No team will have a complete set of perfect players. That the Bengals got two UFA's that can both start at the NFL level, get the team to the playoffs, shows the orgnization is doing lot more right than wrong from scouting, to coaching, to front office getting the pay close what the players are worth.

If a better center is there in the draft - take him... but don't reach, not over BPA... I'm bumed two years now for team not getting to the next level...
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  #68  
Old 01-16-2013, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Give me some examples, if you can.

Other than the Watt sack, in the 1st Qtr, I didn't see Cook play that bad in the playoff game.

Leonard missed the chip on that stunt and Watt shouldn't be blocked one on one.

Other than Hampton getting 1 pressure in the 2nd Steelers game (Robinson also got blown up once by Hampton in the 1st Steelers game) I didn't see Cook play that bad individually either.

I mean if I'm missing something then please refresh my memory.

The whole offense struggling was not a result of putting Cook back in there.
Difference is The first steelers game was robinsons first @ Center.. Then after he had a full week of practice there he was much better. Just go back and watch any of the games with cook in. and concentrate on him. You will see him go and help a double team (not needed) and then a guy come straight thru where he was Or you will see him standing behind the other ol guys not blocking anything He just seemed out of position most of the time. But the OL did not function well at all once he returned.
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  #69  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
How did Robinson look better than Cook in the offense?

Both made mistakes in certain games.

Is there any substance behind your observation or are you like everyone else and blame Cook because the entire offense stunk down the stretch?
And you're jumping to that conclusion yourself. Nowhere did I blame Cook for the whole offence failing down the stretch. Have a re-read buddy.

I just said we looked a lil better with Robinson in there. And we did. I dont know how anyone could say otherwise. But I dont therefore think Cook is a joke and Robinson is the greatest Centre of all time. It just worked a bit better while he was in.

You seem more guilty of jumping to group opinions than I do

Last edited by TheCincinnatiKid; 01-16-2013 at 05:19 PM.
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  #70  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Difference is The first steelers game was robinsons first @ Center.. Then after he had a full week of practice there he was much better. Just go back and watch any of the games with cook in. and concentrate on him. You will see him go and help a double team (not needed) and then a guy come straight thru where he was Or you will see him standing behind the other ol guys not blocking anything He just seemed out of position most of the time. But the OL did not function well at all once he returned.
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And you're jumping to that conclusion yourself. Nowhere did I blame Cook for the whole offence failing down the stretch. Have a re-read buddy.

I just said we looked a lil better with Robinson in there. And we did. I dont know how anyone could say otherwise. But I dont therefore think Cook is a joke and Robinson is the greatest Centre of all time. It just worked a bit better while he was in.

You seem more guilty of jumping to group opinions than I do
024 - Examples? I can't watch the games on NFL Rewind anymore because my subscription expired when the playoffs started. Are any of the vague moments you listed above game changing moments in the game?

Kid - Or could it just be that Robinson started during a stretch where the Bengals played horrible teams that are now picking in the top 5 of this years draft?

What nobody wants to admit is that the offense struggled the most because the young QB was having trouble adjusting to NFL pocket pressure and reading NFL defenses.

Like it or not, that is the reason, not Cook.
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  #71  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:51 PM
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bengals Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

Nope!!!
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  #72  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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I just don't know how the correlation between us having a great run-game/clicking offense with Robinson and insane pressure up the middle, sacks galore, mediocre run-game with Cook is lost on our coaching staff.

It's like we don't want to hurt Cook's feelings or something, we need a dose of Harbaugh-style tough love realism in this franchise imo.
I don't think it's lost on the coaches. They rotated(dumb idea) instead of immediately benching Robinson when Cook came back. It tells me they gained some confidence in him since they signed an out of shape Faine off the couch to start the season. And when the season ended they said he'd get to compete for the start in training camp rather than ignore the situation entirely. So they're saying a lot without saying much, I think.

Cook had playoff experience, and perhaps the coaches worried there would be too much youth on the line. There's no way to know for sure that Robinson would have done well in that kind of situation. I don't know if Robinson has ever been in a playoff/bowl situation in college, but coaches do consider how well their guys have played in big games.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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024 - Examples? I can't watch the games on NFL Rewind anymore because my subscription expired when the playoffs started. Are any of the vague moments you listed above game changing moments in the game?

Kid - Or could it just be that Robinson started during a stretch where the Bengals played horrible teams that are now picking in the top 5 of this years draft?

What nobody wants to admit is that the offense struggled the most because the young QB was having trouble adjusting to NFL pocket pressure and reading NFL defenses.

Like it or not, that is the reason, not Cook.
I agree Cook was not the reason, but I think he was part of the reason. I find it hard to fault one guy when a team struggles in the playoffs that isn't wearing a coach's visor or a business suit. I think the offense just needs some time to mature.
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  #74  
Old 01-16-2013, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Here's what was saudcabout Cook before the 2012 injury season



Kyle Cook and total pressures allowed in the NFL

By maxpower617 - Jul-16-12 7:22am
From: 60maxpowero.com
Pro Football Focus has been releasing their "3 Years of ..." articles in the past few weeks, and it's always interesting to see a Bengals name pop up here and there at the bottom or top of some list. Andrew Whitworth ranked the third best offensive tackle in the league in pass blocking effeciency. Defensive ends Michael Johnson and Robert Geathers ranked among the four worst edge rushers in the league in pass rushing effeciency. Geno Atkins ranked second best in the league in pass rushing productivity for defensive tackles.
These articles are interesting and informative, but they always must be taken with a grain of salt, and looked at on case by case basis. For example, Chris Crocker was the most effecient pass rushing defensive back in the league by a mile, but we attributed that to the scheming of defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer, more than the ability of Crocker himself.
In their most recent article, Bengals starting center Kyle Cook, ranked fourth worst in the league in pressure allowed in the past three years. That sounds really, really bad. But, in reality, he amounts to just a below average pass blocker, who has simply been on the field more than anyone else.
Yup, Kyle Cook, a name some casual fans might not recognize, actually leads the entire Bengals team in total number of snaps in the past three years. He also places second in the league in total number of snaps for a center. Only Detroit's Dominic Raoila has taken more snaps at center in the past three years, and he's allowed 4 more pressures.
The article actually addresses this issue, and introduces the more important part.
Total pressure numbers can often be misleading. Sure, Goodwin, Meester, and Raiola [and Cook!] gave up the most pressure, but they also spent a larger portion of their time pass blocking. This is where the PBE formula demonstrates its value and adds a whole new level of context by taking into acount who was giving up the most pressure relative to the number of pass-protecting snaps.
So, while Kyle Cook is ranked fourth worst in the league in total pressures allowed, he isn't in the bottom ten in pass blocking efficiency, which is the next part of the article. That's the important one. It's a ratio of how often you are on the field and how many pressures you allow - which they call Pass Blocking Efficiency.
Since Kyle Cook wasn't in the bottom ten himself, I added up his own numbers and found that he would have fallen just outside the bottom ten. He received a 97.46 Pass Blocking Effeciency rating, just above tenth place's 97.45. So, while that's not good, remember that there's only 32 starting centers in the league, and you can rightfully conclude that Kyle Cook has been a below average pass-blocking center for the past three years. And, hey, guess who ranks as the 4th worst pass blocking center in the last three years? It's the Pittsburgh Steeler's 2011 Pro Bowl Center Maurkice Pouncey.
Like Pouncey, Kyle Cook is generally better at run blocking. Pro Football Focus rated Cook as the sixteenth best run blocking center in 2009, the tenth best in 2010 (Pouncey was fifteenth), and the fourteenth best in 2011 (Pouncey was seventeenth). Therefore, Cook has proven himself as a slightly above average as a run blocker.
Put that all together and you can statistically prove (at least through the eyes of Pro Football Focus) that Kyle Cook is a below average pass blocker, and an above average run blocker. All from an undrafted player who had the much criticized Nate Livings as his right left hand man.
Cook's biggest weakness is his inconsistency. Like Livings (but not as extremely bad), he can make a Pro Bowl block on one play, then allow pressure up the middle on the next play. He has stretches of very good games, and stretches of very bad games. If Cook can eliminate those mistakes and improve on his consistency, he can play like one of the best centers in the league. The Bengals certainly believe so. When the Bengals extended players in the 2011 offseason, they chose to extend Leon Hall, Andrew Whitworth, and Kyle Cook. They signed Cook to a four year extension, worth over $2.5 million per year.
He's signed through 2015, so if you don't like him, you should get used to him. He has been the Bengals second best run-blocking lineman for the past two years, and he finally is getting some good run-blockers around him in free agent left guard Travelle Wharton and first round right guard Kevin Zeitler. We'll see how the season plays out, but we know for sure that the Bengals organization is optimistic about the future of Kyle Cook.
Is it possible his efficiency rating is higher because he missed a ton of snaps mid season. It seems probable to me.
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  #75  
Old 01-16-2013, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Does Kyle Cook deserve a pass

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Originally Posted by silvergun View Post
I just don't know how the correlation between us having a great run-game/clicking offense with Robinson and insane pressure up the middle, sacks galore, mediocre run-game with Cook is lost on our coaching staff.

It's like we don't want to hurt Cook's feelings or something, we need a dose of Harbaugh-style tough love realism in this franchise imo.
A lot of the pressure came from right tackle and Boling. Cook gave up some.

People talk like he gave up 20 sacks.

There were games where Robinson was bad too. The 1st Steelers game comes to mind.
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