Gruden not as bad as we all think...

[SacBengal]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

We do not have NEARLY as much talent as you are trying to lead on to.
We really just don't. We have a bottom of the league offense in terms of talent and it reared it's ugly little head at the end of the season.

And FYI, I am ignoring the stupid idea behind comparing a 2nd year QB to PEYTON MANNING or Drew Brees.

It's not a comparison of Manning or Brees to Dalton. It's a comparison of offensive philosophies. One that that utilizes the strengths that are the field, and one that forces all of the square pegs into a round hole.

You can make excuses all day long for Gruden, but at some point responsibility has to point back to him, and the fact that he's tried very, very little to get his guys involved in different ways to find something, anything, that worked consistently.

[FootballBender]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Pressley WAS on the field this year, so the question of whether I'd prefer him or another WR or TE is not the point. The point is that when he was on the field we never threw him the ball or even once handed off to him to carry the ball up the middle. In other words, when Pressley was in the game our offense was very limited and easy to read. This was NOT because of lack of talent, but because of lack of imagination by the play caller. Pressley may not be all-world, but he's talented enough to hand the ball off to once per game or throw the ball to once per game just to keep a defense honest. Even if we don't gain much yardage when we do that the point is that it just makes an opposing LB a step slower the next time Pressley's in the game on 3rd-and-short when he has to consider the possibility of Pressley getting the ball.

Anyway, I'm getting stuck on Pressley which was just an example. There's no way you'll convince me we couldn't have gotten Charles more than 8 catches this year ... he looked pretty smooth in the limited chances he got. And, people on these boards begged Gruden for weeks to get Peerman more carries from scrimmage before he finally started being given the opportunity and proved a useful changeup in the running game. I stand by my story: whatever you think of our level of talent on offense, Gruden did not make full use of it. I'm certainly in favor of making moves to improve the offensive personnel this offseason ... I'm not saying limits in talent played no part in us ranking 22nd on offense, but IMO Gruden could have done a lot more with what he did have.

PS For all the people who think that replacing Gruden would be a kneejerk reaction and we should give him more time, note that Denver just fired their DB coach after their fiasco on Saturday. That's the level of accountability in some organizations ... one really bad PLAY in a playoff game and you're out (considering Denver ranked 3rd in pass D I'm assuming they weren't too down on this coach's work before Saturday).

He wasn't fired...His contract just wasn't renewed.

[twlssn03]

Thank you, we are so stinking predictable. Peerman didn't get any real carries this season or last.
In fact no one gets carries except who the other team knows will get them. It has been the same with
Ced, Dillon, etc. If only one of our backs gets the rock it makes us much easier to defend. Every other team in the league gives the ball to multiple players.

[EatonFan]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He's probably getting some play out of his last name and he's probably getting some credit for getting an offense with a good but not great QB and one real weapon in AJ to the playoffs in both of those players first two seasons.

Plus, he probably interviews well.

I could go either way, I think there are other OCs we could bring in i.e. Wisenhunt that could do a fine job. I am really disappointed in the offensive showing in this year's playoff game. If he stays, fine, if not, just get another good WCO guy.

Ditto.

[Derrick]

Originally Posted by RedBengal9

His worst year was by far his first year, which he pretty much got a pass for.

This past year wasn't as bad, but he left a bad taste in everyone's mouth after the playoff game. That's why everyone is screaming for him to get out of town.

I think your analysis is correct IMO. Some days I am more tolerant of the OC's ability than I am on other days.

[Derrick]

Originally Posted by Joelist

By the way, a major reason the Texans snuffed out the couple of screens we tried to run is we don't do them enough to be proficient at them. Note that the Patriots burnt the Texans to a crisp with screens. Why? They do them a lot and as a result they know how to do them right.

Also, the fact that we run our offense at such a slow tempo hurts screens and also hurts draws, traps and indeed all of the offensive plays that try to snooker a defense. Those plays need the offense to be more up tempo so as to deny the defense time to diagnose everything. We need to be practicing a lot at getting formed up fast and getting the play off quickly - realistically with a 45 second play clock we should be able to form up and snap within 8-10 seconds of the play clock starting. Yes there are times we want to burn off the play clock but we need the POTENTIAL to fire off plays in rapid succession.

Now, this is something I can agree with!!!

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by berserkerone88

All in all we are a team of role players and guys with incredibly narrow skill sets. When they get on the field, teams know how to play us.

I just re-newed my season tickets, love my role players.

[StLucieBengal]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Care to actually make an argument in your post? Our offense ranked #22 in the league, we scored only 7 offensive TDs in the final 6 games of the season ... and even 6 of those TDs came after defense or special teams set us up with field position in the opponent's half of the field. We literally had only ONE drive in the final 6 games where we took possession in our own half of the field and managed to get the ball into the endzone (opening drive versus Dallas). Given how bad we were on offense, why is it "ridiculous" and a "chicken little mentally" (I guess you meant 'mentality' on that last one) for people to want a new offensive coordinator? Baltimore fired their OC during the season when they were 9-4 and leading the AFC North, and coming off a game when they scored 28 points ... is the Ravens GM just 'chicken little'?

Sure I will happily make an argument. Point by Point.

1. On our 22 Ranking: Yes this is not where we need to be but this ranking is based on our lack of talent on the offense. Who is our game changer on offense besides AJ. Most top offenses have a 2nd home run hitter.

Top offenses Pats- Gronk/Welker, NO - Colston/Moore, Denver - McGahee/Thomas, Wash - the RB/Pierre, Detroit - CJ/Stafford, Dallas - Both WR, Houston - Johnson/Foster
All of the top 4 Offenses have ELITE QB's

We do not have a 2nd home run threat or an Elite QB at this time. Lets see who they bring in this off season. Scoring will follow, I do not argue with the lack of points down the stretch but we did it with smoke and mirrors at times. We need another WR and speed back badly. there were serious holes but BJGE was just too slow to pop the big runs. He is a steady mauler. and will be fine, but needs a speed compliment

2. On the Chicken Little Mentality: Yes I did mispell but thats what happens when you post using your iphone while fishing on the boat. Thank you for pointing that out Spell Check Police.
Yes I do think dumping Gruden is thinking small, its ridiculous to think anyone was going to be a top 10 offense with this crew in 2012. For the reasons listed above. I just get tired and worn out with the mentality to blow it up and make us worse, ITS NOT MADDEN!
How many big plays did we have that AJ didnt make? BJGE had a few 40+ runs, but Scott or a speed guy would have gone to the house on those, and there was more, we had holes up front several times this year. I watched the coaches tape on the NFL package.

3. On Baltimore Firing their OC: How does their situation relate to ours? No top offense fired their OC? Baltimore also has play makers on their Offense Rice/Smith and Bolden isnt too shabby either at times. If we had the same quality of talent on offense that they do and we were still doing the same, then there is merit to move on. But just because they or another teams makes a move doesnt mean we have to. Besides none of us know what happened there, could have been a personal reason to be fired. And really it doesnt matter because it has nothing to do with us.

there you go, let me know if you need me to clarify anything or if I mistyped again, Im on my ipad this time.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by StLucieBengal

....there you go, let me know if you need me to clarify anything or if I mistyped again, Im on my ipad this time.

Awesome, good stuff. I enjoyed that post a lot more than the one where you just insulted everybody who disagreed with your opinion.

I acknowledge that we did not have as much talent on our roster as some other offenses in the league, but I also think the personnel we did have was not used effectively by Gruden either. At this point I think I've posted enough comments in this thread trying to explain why I feel this way, so I won't elaborate any more.

[StLucieBengal]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

We're all entitled to an opinion. You've expressed your opinions but have no really persuasive arguments in your post that would cause me to change mine. IMO, we did not have overwhelming talent on offense, but there was enough there to do much, much better than we did last season. Good play-calling and design can go a long way to covering up for lack of talent. To repeat one of the examples I gave in my post: we only got the ball to Pressley once all season (a TD catch versus Jax). Do I think Pressley is a phenomenal receiving talent? No, of course not. But it makes an opposing LB's job way, way easier when he comes into a game knowing we pretty much never throw to the FB and he doesn't have to consider that possibility when Pressley's in the game. Can you appreciate how something like that makes it easier to defend our offense?

PS Randy Moss was cut by the Pats 4 games into 2010 and had little to do with the production the Pats got out of Tate that year, most of which came after Moss was gone.

your epiphany to solve the offense is pass more to Pressley and Tate LMFAO C'mon man you have just proven where your at ..... You know if we sprinkle in more Richard Quinn we will probably jump up 8 or 9 spots. ffs lol

Pressley is a battering ram. ... end of. Him runnng routes will not make any defense quiver or LB's worry about anything, No one fears a Neck Roll in the route.

Tate lol F'in Tate Needs fired, and frankly just shows that we need another WR Badly

and FYI Tate's "production" in NE had something to do with Welker and a superior QB.

[StLucieBengal]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Awesome, good stuff. I enjoyed that post a lot more than the one where you just insulted everybody who disagreed with your opinion.

I acknowledge that we did not have as much talent on our roster as some other offenses in the league, but I also think the personnel we did have was not used effectively by Gruden either. At this point I think I've posted enough comments in this thread trying to explain why I feel this way, so I won't elaborate any more.

Its cool, I just get tired of the overreacting by so many over something that really isnt as bad an issue as its made out to be...

[graphicguy]

Anyone hear that Jodi Foster said she was a lesbian?

That's as interesting as some of these "offensive theories" I'm reading.

I will agree that Gruden, for reasons I can't explain, called a horrific game against Houston. We should have won that game by 13 or more. BTW.....I can't stand Watt.

Some blame Sanu's absence as the turning point. I think there's something else that caused Gruden to go all Bratkowski the latter part of the season (yes, the offense sputtered quite a bit the last 1/4 of the season).

I think there's a lack of faith in some of the players. Marvin tried to call out some of them (i.e, Mauluga and Dalton). But, if they can't execute in practice, they aren't going to get the chance in the game. I saw a whole lot less of "no huddle" in the latter part of the year, than we saw the rest of the season. Is it because some of the players couldn't handle it? My guess is yes. If the players are in the NFL, you would think they'd be capable of absorbing a play book. Then again, Mike Brown is known for getting gifted athletes that possessed the IQ of a rock.

Sometimes I think OCs become too clever for their own good. I think that's what happened with Gruden. He was piling on the "creative" plays. And then, just went vanilla. Did Marvin want to tone it down? According to Gruden, no (Marvin wanted the famous Sanu to A.J. pass called).

If Gruden gets the AZ job (which looks 50-50 at this point), I'm betting Hue takes over. He's used to having a strong armed QB, which Dalton is not (at least not accurately). So, are we better off? I wouldn't be so certain of that.

Bottom line, it will be an interesting 2013. We'll either have a new OC with a new, presumably better scheme. Or, the same OC, with hopefully another year of experience who can correct what went wrong.

BTW....someone mentioned the Ravens Harbaugh firing his OC. This is akin to his brother throwing his starting QB under the bus when he got hurt to start someone else. Initially, they both look brilliant. In the not to distant future, the coaches and players will flip their HC their middle finger. FAs will think twice about looking at either franchise. Current players will leave when their contract is up.

A couple of seasons from now, fans of those teams will be asking, "what happened?". Well, it won't be apparent but remember what both did this season for the answers.

[RandyRoy]

Gruden failed big time at the end of the season plus wildcard game.

[fumetti]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

First off let me say that i was thoroughly disappointed in the gameplan against the Texans. I expected a more creative gameplan and not targeting AJ green in the first half is unacceptable.

With that said i think our offense improved from last season. When this offense was clicking it was extremely fun to watch. Green going deep, hawkins in the slot, and Sanu on the opposite side to go along with Gresham up the seam is a very formidable offense. Gruden in my opinion is not the problem. I think our real problem is Dalton as well as our WRs not getting any separation from the DBs.

Here was our offense the last month of the season in a nutshell. Dalton pre snap reads the defense, and has already made his decision on where he is going to throw the ball. He looks at Receiver A, if not open he will either scramble out of the pocket, get sacked, or force the ball in tight coverage. Rarely did he check the ball down or go to option B when there were other options.

Now on the flip side most of the time Dalton did read the coverage properly, but the WR such as Hawkins, or Jones just didn't get open one on one. In addition our pass blocking was very average and he would be forced to make a quick decision.

2 things would do wonders for this offense. One would be for Dalton to be a little more patient and go through his progressions. The next thing would be for us to pick up another WR opposite Green that can create separation and take advantage of one on one coverage.

In the end Gruden drew up the plays, and our offense was awful the last few games, but I think in this particular case the blame game goes to the players more so than the coach.

I know this is an unpopular opinion right now but if you watch the coach film it wasn't as if the plays were poorly designed. The only gripe I have with Gruden is that he sometimes should stick to the run more when it is working. Anyways I think Gruden is the right fit for this offense and this QB at this time. Give him another year.

GRUDEN MUST GO.

He is AWFUL.

The ONLY stat that matters is that Gruden LOSES to good teams.

1. He cannot move the ball and score points against good teams. Look at Cincy's offensive output vs Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Absolutely wretched. The Giants game now looks like a fluke. The offense did okay against Denver until the 4th quarter when Cincy just needed first downs (not even touchdowns) and couldn't get them. The egg laid vs Miami made me nauseous. The second half of the Cleveland loss made me puke.

2. Gruden is WORSE every time he faces a familiar opponent (usually meaning the second time he faces someone). Good grief, Cincy had just ONE meaningful play in Pittsburgh territory in the win--and that was a pass to get into field goal range. Gruden only beat Balt because our backups played better than Balt's backups. And look at Houston: 19 points, then 10 points, then 6 offensive points. (The only teams' starters that Gruden has beaten in a second meeting were Cleveland in '11, and the offense didn't have a lead until a FG when the clock expired, and Jacksonville in '12--and they were 2-12.)

3. Dalton and Green are NOT progressing. They played in December and January as if they were raw rookies in preseason games. Just completely out of synch. Second seasons are supposed to be much better but this one wasn't when it mattered. There is NO EXCUSE for this passing game falling off a cliff in the second half of '11 and '12. Plus, the pass blocking inexplicably became absolutely atrocious after having a solid stretch of good performances.

4. The IDIOTIC gameplan in the playoffs. Especially that Gruden stuck with it in the second qtr after it failed so miserably in the first qtr. Gruden looked like this was the first game plan he ever made.

5. Gruden CANNOT make in-game adjustments. If his plan doesn't work from the get-go, he has no counter. (If a team is successful getting pressure on Dalton, Gruden STILL calls 5 step drops with long routes--just stupid. And when he calls a screen--that one time in a million--the play is usually botched because he calls them so rarely.) If his plan works, but the other team adjusts to stop it, then Gruden has no counter-adjustment. He simply cannot perform at this level. We've lost way too many games, especially two playoff games (rare gems for this team) because of Gruden. The defense plays its guts out. It deserves better from the offense.

IT'S NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.

Either (A) Dalton is a good franchise quarterback hamstrung by bad coaching or (B ) Gruden is a good coach and Dalton is a bad quarterback. Why? Because if it's (C) Dalton and Gruden are both performing well, then (D) they both stink and BOTH need replaced. I think it's A.

I am OUTRAGED that Gruden still has his job. I am hoping that Mike Brown didn't fire Gruden simply to make him more attractive to other teams. Otherwise we have yet another incidence of MB's incompetence as a General Manager.

[Cardiackat]

Originally Posted by fumetti

GRUDEN MUST GO.

He is AWFUL.

The ONLY stat that matters is that Gruden LOSES to good teams.

1. He cannot move the ball and score points against good teams. Look at Cincy's offensive output vs Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Absolutely wretched. The Giants game now looks like a fluke. The offense did okay against Denver until the 4th quarter when Cincy just needed first downs (not even touchdowns) and couldn't get them. The egg laid vs Miami made me nauseous. The second half of the Cleveland loss made me puke.

2. Gruden is WORSE every time he faces a familiar opponent (usually meaning the second time he faces someone). Good grief, Cincy had just ONE meaningful play in Pittsburgh territory in the win--and that was a pass to get into field goal range. Gruden only beat Balt because our backups played better than Balt's backups. And look at Houston: 19 points, then 10 points, then 6 offensive points. (The only team's starters that Gruden has beaten in a second meeting was Jacksonville--and they were 2-12.)

3. Dalton and Green are NOT progressing. They played in December and January as if they were raw rookies in preseason games. Just completely out of synch. Second seasons are supposed to be much better but this one wasn't when it mattered. There is NO EXCUSE for this passing game falling off a cliff in the second half of '11 and '12. Plus, the pass blocking inexplicably became absolutely atrocious after having a solid stretch of good performances.

4. The IDIOTIC gameplan in the playoffs. Especially that Gruden stuck with it in the second qtr after it failed so miserably in the first qtr. Gruden looked like this was the first game plan he ever made.

5. Gruden CANNOT make in-game adjustments. If his plan doesn't work from the get-go, he has no counter. (If a team is successful getting pressure on Dalton, Gruden STILL calls 5 step drops with long routes--just stupid. And when he calls a screen--that one time in a million--the play is usually botched because he calls them so rarely.) If his plan works, but the other team adjusts to stop it, then Gruden has no counter-adjustment. He simply cannot perform at this level. We've lost way too many games, especially two playoff games (rare gems for this team) because of Gruden. The defense plays its guts out. It deserves better from the offense.

IT'S NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.

Either (A) Dalton is a good franchise quarterback hamstrung by bad coaching or ( Gruden is a good coach and Dalton is a bad quarterback. Why? Because if it's (C) Dalton and Gruden are both performing well, then (D) they both **** and BOTH need replaced. I think it's A.

I am OUTRAGED that Gruden still has his job. I am hoping that Mike Brown didn't fire Gruden simply to make him more attractive to other teams. Otherwise we have yet another incidence of MB's incompetence as a General Manager.

Hey, normally when team exit out the playoffs so poorly like that they do switch up on coordinators and I'm surprise there's no change.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by fumetti

....The Giants game now looks like a fluke....

It's actually consistent with your criticisms when you consider that our special teams and defense were dominant in that game and that our offensive TD drives came after being set up with the following field position:

-own 21
-Giants 11
-Giants 12
-Giants 16

So, besides the opening drive, when a massive defensive breakdown allowed AJ to be wide open for the long TD, all of our TD drives were set up by big plays on special teams or defense which set us up with very short field position. This is entirely consistent with most of the last half of the season ... our offense could rarely get the ball into the endzone unless the D or special teams set them up with short field.