Ray Lewis...greatest of all time.

[gmdino]

After I posted this I started doing some research. I apologize for the length but I didn't really parse it, just typed as I found it.

First off kudos to Bmoreblitz for at least using some stats and not just saying he’s played at a high level or is a good motivator.

The problem with the stats is…they don’t hold up to much scrutiny.

Tackles are a fickle thing. Over the last three years Ryan Clark has the second most tackles for the Steelers (and more than Ray Lewis over that time span)…but I don’t want a safety to have that many tackles! LOL! That means the play is already down field.
And I couldn't find a breakdown of tackles for losses so even if Ray has the most tackles ever…how many are down-field? How many were him chasing a player who stepped out of bounds or fell in front of him?

But let’s look at that stat anyway.

Over his career Ray Lewis has 2061 tackles in 228 games played. 111 more than London Fletcher who played in 240 games. That’s impressive. More impressive is he has 1567 solo vs 1335 for Fletcher and average just about one more tackle per game than Fletcher.

But his average of 9 tackles per game isn't the best of all time. That’s Zach Thomas who in 184 games averaged 9.4 tackles per game. 6 solo tackles per game to Ray’s 6.9.
But, I can hear you say, “Ray played at a high level for a long time!”

Well, kind of.

If you look over the last five years Lewis is 10th in tackles over that time with 541 (Averaging 8.2 per game.) Behind such notables as Curtis Lofton, Stephen Tulloch and Antoine Bethea! LOL! His average over that time is behind London Fletcher, Chad Greenway, Jerod Mayo, Patrick Willis and Paul Posluszny.

Over the last three years…a time when the Ravens have reached the AFC Championship game once and the playoffs every time...Lewis is 28th with 291. Behind the afore mentioned Ryan Clark who had 292 (in 13 more games). Still a respectable 8.6 per game average…which would have made him 4th in the time span.

So production is down as injuries have limited his time on the field. Plus, as I said, tackles are kind of fickle. How many of those were for a loss or were the “big hits” people remember from early in Ray’s career?

I thought maybe one way to look at that was to see how many fumbles Lewis forced. A big guy, big hitter, all time leader in tackles…he MUST have created some turnovers.

Ray is 68th all-time in interceptions with 31. First among linebackers. But you never hear people talk about Ray’s great hands and cover skills. LOL! (Lambert had 28…and I couldn't find a total for his tackles other than Wikipedia which listed him at 1479 and he played before sack totals were kept although the internet said he is listed as 23.5 unofficially.)

However Ray is 66th all-time in forced fumbles with 19. All time. He’s behind 25 other linebackers in that stat. That is something I thought would be higher given his reputation.

Also when it comes to sacks Lewis is 203rd with 41.5 life time. Tied with Brian Urlacher who has played 46 fewer games. (Urlacher also has 22 INT’s)

So the tackles aren't causing turnovers…he doesn't sack the QB…he was the best LB as far as total INT’s.

Is that the greatest ever? Of all time?

I don’t think so. On a team that had a great defense he made a lot of tackles…and he may have been the loudest so he was the “emotional leader” but the stats don’t show that he made a difference. What they show is that because he was demonstrative he got a reputation. Because he made a few big hits he got a reputation. But really, other than tackles (and again, they are hard to define) he made the calls and gave speeches. Reputation leads to pro-bowl votes. Especially after the Super Bowl win early in his career.

Does that qualify as greatest?

Lastly there have been players that the NFL made rule changes for. Players so good they had to change the GAME to lessen their impact. Ray Lewis is not one of those players. He played the game hard…but no different.

Edit: Stats from http://www.playerfilter.com/nfl

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by gmdino

After I posted this I started doing some research. I apologize for the length but I didn't really parse it, just typed as I found it.

First off kudos to Bmoreblitz for at least using some stats and not just saying he’s played at a high level or is a good motivator.

The problem with the stats is…they don’t hold up to much scrutiny.

Tackles are a fickle thing. Over the last three years Ryan Clark has the second most tackles for the Steelers (and more than Ray Lewis over that time span)…but I don’t want a safety to have that many tackles! LOL! That means the play is already down field.
And I couldn't find a breakdown of tackles for losses so even if Ray has the most tackles ever…how many are down-field? How many were him chasing a player who stepped out of bounds or fell in front of him?

But let’s look at that stat anyway.

Over his career Ray Lewis has 2061 tackles in 228 games played. 111 more than London Fletcher who played in 240 games. That’s impressive. More impressive is he has 1567 solo vs 1335 for Fletcher and average just about one more tackle per game than Fletcher.

But his average of 9 tackles per game isn't the best of all time. That’s Zach Thomas who in 184 games averaged 9.4 tackles per game. 6 solo tackles per game to Ray’s 6.9.
But, I can hear you say, “Ray played at a high level for a long time!”

Well, kind of.

If you look over the last five years Lewis is 10th in tackles over that time with 541 (Averaging 8.2 per game.) Behind such notables as Curtis Lofton, Stephen Tulloch and Antoine Bethea! LOL! His average over that time is behind London Fletcher, Chad Greenway, Jerod Mayo, Patrick Willis and Paul Posluszny.

Over the last three years…a time when the Ravens have reached the AFC Championship game once and the playoffs every time...Lewis is 28th with 291. Behind the afore mentioned Ryan Clark who had 292 (in 13 more games). Still a respectable 8.6 per game average…which would have made him 4th in the time span.

So production is down as injuries have limited his time on the field. Plus, as I said, tackles are kind of fickle. How many of those were for a loss or were the “big hits” people remember from early in Ray’s career?

I thought maybe one way to look at that was to see how many fumbles Lewis forced. A big guy, big hitter, all time leader in tackles…he MUST have created some turnovers.

Ray is 68th all-time in interceptions with 31. First among linebackers. But you never hear people talk about Ray’s great hands and cover skills. LOL! (Lambert had 28…and I couldn't find a total for his tackles other than Wikipedia which listed him at 1479 and he played before sack totals were kept although the internet said he is listed as 23.5 unofficially.)

However Ray is 66th all-time in forced fumbles with 19. All time. He’s behind 25 other linebackers in that stat. That is something I thought would be higher given his reputation.

Also when it comes to sacks Lewis is 203rd with 41.5 life time. Tied with Brian Urlacher who has played 46 fewer games. (Urlacher also has 22 INT’s)

So the tackles aren't causing turnovers…he doesn't sack the QB…he was the best LB as far as total INT’s.

Is that the greatest ever? Of all time?

I don’t think so. On a team that had a great defense he made a lot of tackles…and he may have been the loudest so he was the “emotional leader” but the stats don’t show that he made a difference. What they show is that because he was demonstrative he got a reputation. Because he made a few big hits he got a reputation. But really, other than tackles (and again, they are hard to define) he made the calls and gave speeches. Reputation leads to pro-bowl votes. Especially after the Super Bowl win early in his career.

Does that qualify as greatest?

Lastly there have been players that the NFL made rule changes for. Players so good they had to change the GAME to lessen their impact. Ray Lewis is not one of those players. He played the game hard…but no different.

Edit: Stats from http://www.playerfilter.com/nfl

Here's how Lewis' numbers stack up when compared to 4 of the best MLB's of the past 20 years:

Ray Lewis: 228 games, 2073 tackles, 41.5 sacks, 31 ints, 19 ff, 20 fr
Brian Urlacher: 182 games, 1358 tackles, 41.5 sacks, 22 ints, 11 ff, 15 fr
Junior Seau: 268 games, 1849 tackles, 56.5 sacks, 18 ints, 11 ff, 18 fr
Zach Thomas: 184 games, 1733 tackles, 20.5 sacks, 17 ints, 16 ff, 8 fr
London Fletcher: 240 games, 1928 tackles, 37 sacks, 23 ints, 19 ff, 20 fr

Stats per 16 games played:

Lewis: 145 tackles, 2.9 sacks, 2.2 ints, 1.3 forced fumbles, 1.4 recoveries
Urlacher: 119 tackles, 3.6 sacks, 1.9 ints, 1.0 forced fumbles, 1.3 recoveries
Seau: 110 tackles, 3.4 sacks, 1.1 ints, 0.7 forced fumbles, 1.1 recoveries
Thomas: 151 tackles, 1.8 sacks, 1.5 ints, 1.4 forced fumbles, 0.7 recoveries
Fletcher: 129 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 1.5 ints, 1.3 forced fumbles, 1.3 recoveries

The only player that tops Ray on tackles is Zach Thomas, but Ray's other stats dwarf Zach's.

Ray was responsible for 51 turnovers compared to only 25 for Zach. Ray also had more than twice as many sacks in his career.

As for some of the players from other eras, I can't find official tackle numbers for Mike Singletary, but he only had 19 sacks and 7 ints in 179 games. Those numbers are absolutely destroyed by Lewis'.

It gets cloudier after that, because sacks weren't officially recorded prior to 1982.

As for players being so great that the NFL changes rules for them, I guess you count Roy Williams as one of the best safeties of all-time?

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by gmdino

Now it is no secret that I am not a fan of anything related to the Ravens at all....and Ray Ray is at the top (or bottom depending how you look at it) of the things I do NOT like.

So full disclosure: I think Ray Lewis is in the top ten linebackers all time. You can argue of the list...but I don't believe is the best of ALL time. Maybe over a 10-12 year period but not all time. And at that I'd say he was the best on a great defense...not necessarily the best himself of all the players during that time period.

So, in all seriousness I ask, why do YOU think he is the greatest of all time? Is there a stat or is it just because you think he's a great motivator...which can't be proven with stats and is more opinion?

Is it because the whole defense was so good for so long? Or is it because you think without him the defense would not have been so good?

State your case and defend it.

In my opinion Ray Lewis is the best linebacker hands down. It's Ray Lewis and then everyone else. As much as it pains me to say a player like Ray is the best, I have to be honest and admit he's better than anyone the Steelers or any of the other teams had. He could change the game in the blink of an eye. He deserves to be listed as the number 1 and he deserves to go out with another Super Bowl ring this year. Heck anyone that can win with Trent Dilfer deserves to be the best.

[Bengalzona]

The stats themselves never tell the whole story. One of the things Ray has going for him (lest people say that I'm hating on him) is what I call the "Mr. October Factor". Simply put, it sees to me that Ray has come up with a lot of key plays in key situations, sort of the way Reggie Jackson was a decent baseball player most of the season, but had clutch plays in key postseason games. You could probably statistically measure and compare that, if you had no life.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Here's how Lewis' numbers stack up when compared to 4 of the best MLB's of the past 20 years:

Ray Lewis: 228 games, 2073 tackles, 41.5 sacks, 31 ints, 19 ff, 20 fr
Brian Urlacher: 182 games, 1358 tackles, 41.5 sacks, 22 ints, 11 ff, 15 fr
Junior Seau: 268 games, 1849 tackles, 56.5 sacks, 18 ints, 11 ff, 18 fr
Zach Thomas: 184 games, 1733 tackles, 20.5 sacks, 17 ints, 16 ff, 8 fr
London Fletcher: 240 games, 1928 tackles, 37 sacks, 23 ints, 19 ff, 20 fr

Stats per 16 games played:

Lewis: 145 tackles, 2.9 sacks, 2.2 ints, 1.3 forced fumbles, 1.4 recoveries
Urlacher: 119 tackles, 3.6 sacks, 1.9 ints, 1.0 forced fumbles, 1.3 recoveries
Seau: 110 tackles, 3.4 sacks, 1.1 ints, 0.7 forced fumbles, 1.1 recoveries
Thomas: 151 tackles, 1.8 sacks, 1.5 ints, 1.4 forced fumbles, 0.7 recoveries
Fletcher: 129 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 1.5 ints, 1.3 forced fumbles, 1.3 recoveries

The only player that tops Ray on tackles is Zach Thomas, but Ray's other stats dwarf Zach's.

Ray was responsible for 51 turnovers compared to only 25 for Zach. Ray also had more than twice as many sacks in his career.

As for some of the players from other eras, I can't find official tackle numbers for Mike Singletary, but he only had 19 sacks and 7 ints in 179 games. Those numbers are absolutely destroyed by Lewis'.

It gets cloudier after that, because sacks weren't officially recorded prior to 1982.

As for players being so great that the NFL changes rules for them, I guess you count Roy Williams as one of the best safeties of all-time?

And I said all that about the turnovers. I'm also saying his reputation for being a big hitter and tackle machine is just that...reputation. Tackles are counted by the home team and he doesn't create the turnovers that you would think he should given the number of tackles he has made (again, assuming he made them). Playing in the middle of the field his job is to read the play and get to the ball. He's done that. But unless someone can show me that he makes a lot of tackles for losses they are just stops.

Mel Blount completely changed the way defenders were allowed to cover a receiver. They changed the rules to help out other teams because of one person. You don't think that makes him rank higher than a guy who did what he suppose to do and made tackles?

Great player...maybe top 3 linebackers...top 10 defenders. Not a game changer.

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by gmdino

After I posted this I started doing some research. I apologize for the length but I didn't really parse it, just typed as I found it.

First off kudos to Bmoreblitz for at least using some stats and not just saying he’s played at a high level or is a good motivator.

The problem with the stats is…they don’t hold up to much scrutiny.

Tackles are a fickle thing. Over the last three years Ryan Clark has the second most tackles for the Steelers (and more than Ray Lewis over that time span)…but I don’t want a safety to have that many tackles! LOL! That means the play is already down field.
And I couldn't find a breakdown of tackles for losses so even if Ray has the most tackles ever…how many are down-field? How many were him chasing a player who stepped out of bounds or fell in front of him?

But let’s look at that stat anyway.

Over his career Ray Lewis has 2061 tackles in 228 games played. 111 more than London Fletcher who played in 240 games. That’s impressive. More impressive is he has 1567 solo vs 1335 for Fletcher and average just about one more tackle per game than Fletcher.

But his average of 9 tackles per game isn't the best of all time. That’s Zach Thomas who in 184 games averaged 9.4 tackles per game. 6 solo tackles per game to Ray’s 6.9.
But, I can hear you say, “Ray played at a high level for a long time!”

Well, kind of.

If you look over the last five years Lewis is 10th in tackles over that time with 541 (Averaging 8.2 per game.) Behind such notables as Curtis Lofton, Stephen Tulloch and Antoine Bethea! LOL! His average over that time is behind London Fletcher, Chad Greenway, Jerod Mayo, Patrick Willis and Paul Posluszny.

Over the last three years…a time when the Ravens have reached the AFC Championship game once and the playoffs every time...Lewis is 28th with 291. Behind the afore mentioned Ryan Clark who had 292 (in 13 more games). Still a respectable 8.6 per game average…which would have made him 4th in the time span.

So production is down as injuries have limited his time on the field. Plus, as I said, tackles are kind of fickle. How many of those were for a loss or were the “big hits” people remember from early in Ray’s career?

I thought maybe one way to look at that was to see how many fumbles Lewis forced. A big guy, big hitter, all time leader in tackles…he MUST have created some turnovers.

Ray is 68th all-time in interceptions with 31. First among linebackers. But you never hear people talk about Ray’s great hands and cover skills. LOL! (Lambert had 28…and I couldn't find a total for his tackles other than Wikipedia which listed him at 1479 and he played before sack totals were kept although the internet said he is listed as 23.5 unofficially.)

However Ray is 66th all-time in forced fumbles with 19. All time. He’s behind 25 other linebackers in that stat. That is something I thought would be higher given his reputation.

Also when it comes to sacks Lewis is 203rd with 41.5 life time. Tied with Brian Urlacher who has played 46 fewer games. (Urlacher also has 22 INT’s)

So the tackles aren't causing turnovers…he doesn't sack the QB…he was the best LB as far as total INT’s.

Is that the greatest ever? Of all time?

I don’t think so. On a team that had a great defense he made a lot of tackles…and he may have been the loudest so he was the “emotional leader” but the stats don’t show that he made a difference. What they show is that because he was demonstrative he got a reputation. Because he made a few big hits he got a reputation. But really, other than tackles (and again, they are hard to define) he made the calls and gave speeches. Reputation leads to pro-bowl votes. Especially after the Super Bowl win early in his career.

Does that qualify as greatest?

Lastly there have been players that the NFL made rule changes for. Players so good they had to change the GAME to lessen their impact. Ray Lewis is not one of those players. He played the game hard…but no different.

Edit: Stats from http://www.playerfilter.com/nfl

Troy Polamalu doesn't have the best stats ever. Are they terrible? No are they great? No. He will go down as one of the best to ever play the game though at the Safety position. Not because of his INts or his sacks or passes defended but because of his natural ability to just do things the average player can't. Jumping over the center as soon as the ball is snapped..or busting through the line. Just the big plays he came up with.


Barry Sanders rushed for the most negative yards in NFL History..when you think of Sanders you don't think of how many yards..you think of his ability to make tacklers miss and just do some flat out crazy *****.

Stats don't tell the entire story.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

Troy Polamalu doesn't have the best stats ever. Are they terrible? No are they great? No. He will go down as one of the best to ever play the game though at the Safety position. Not because of his INts or his sacks or passes defended but because of his natural ability to just do things the average player can't. Jumping over the center as soon as the ball is snapped..or busting through the line. Just the big plays he came up with.


Barry Sanders rushed for the most negative yards in NFL History..when you think of Sanders you don't think of how many yards..you think of his ability to make tacklers miss and just do some flat out crazy *****.

Stats don't tell the entire story.

I agree wholeheartedly. However will Troy be called the greatest of all time because he could make spectacular plays? For every jump over the center is there a blown play?

Plays like that help create a reputation. And it is warranted. But that doesn't mean its always true. With Ray his reputation is as a leader. But does that make him the best at his position? Lambert was a leader on a great defense too. Singletary also.

So there has to be something more. And the only thing the stats show is he makes tackles and leads LB's in INT's. So I'm still saying he's not the greatest of all time as a LB or as a defensive player.

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by gmdino

I agree wholeheartedly. However will Troy be called the greatest of all time because he could make spectacular plays? For every jump over the center is there a blown play?

Plays like that help create a reputation. And it is warranted. But that doesn't mean its always true. With Ray his reputation is as a leader. But does that make him the best at his position? Lambert was a leader on a great defense too. Singletary also.

So there has to be something more. And the only thing the stats show is he makes tackles and leads LB's in INT's. So I'm still saying he's not the greatest of all time as a LB or as a defensive player.

I think Troy will go down as one of the best ever. If he has another season where he is injured ALL season I think then people will question that. Lord knows he has done a TON for the Steelers and came up big in crucial games..Examples..Sack Fumble in Baltimore, Pick 6 in AFCCG. He is a monster.

I don't think Ray is the best ever..I actually think it's hard to declare the best ever at a position because of different eras played and the rules that were changed etc. Especially at the LB position..there has been so many great players to play the position.

Take the Wide Receiver position. I don't think Jerry Rice is the best of all time. I strongly believe Don Hutson is.

[Slappy from New Haven]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

I think Troy will go down as one of the best ever. If he has another season where he is injured ALL season I think then people will question that. Lord knows he has done a TON for the Steelers and came up big in crucial games..Examples..Sack Fumble in Baltimore, Pick 6 in AFCCG. He is a monster.

I don't think Ray is the best ever..I actually think it's hard to declare the best ever at a position because of different eras played and the rules that were changed etc. Especially at the LB position..there has been so many great players to play the position.

Take the Wide Receiver position. I don't think Jerry Rice is the best of all time. I strongly believe Don Hutson is.

i think the Don Hutson Jerry Rice is a great debate.

The issue is most fans never saw him play and we are deluged with NFL films and the press TELLING use Rice was the greatest of all time

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

i think the Don Hutson Jerry Rice is a great debate.

The issue is most fans never saw him play and we are deluged with NFL films and the press TELLING use Rice was the greatest of all time

Jerry Rice was no doubt a stud and deserves to be called great but Don Hutson man did what Rice did in a time where passes weren't that common lol and he put up modern day numbers. Don Hutson has more receiving touchdowns then a lot of great receivers today. Sadly people will always go with the media favorite and Hutson will be forgotten.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

i think the Don Hutson Jerry Rice is a great debate.

The issue is most fans never saw him play and we are deluged with NFL films and the press TELLING use Rice was the greatest of all time

And Rice has the flashy stats...which came with the era he played in and the team he played for.

And that also brings me back to Ray. He's been called the greatest of "all time" for so long its just accepted. I said before that if "all time" is the last 15 years then maybe. But the NFL is a wee bit older than that!

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by gmdino

And Rice has the flashy stats...which came with the era he played in and the team he played for.

And that also brings me back to Ray. He's been called the greatest of "all time" for so long its just accepted. I said before that if "all time" is the last 15 years then maybe. But the NFL is a wee bit older than that!

Hutson had flashy stats too man.

Career NFL statistics
Receptions 488
Receiving Yards 7,991
Touchdowns 99

3x NFL Champion, 1936 1939 1944
Rated #9 NFL player of all-time by NFL.com
NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
NFL 1930s All-Decade Team
2× Joe F. Carr Trophy winner (1941, 1942)
Green Bay Packers all-time leading Touchdown receptions leader with 99
Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame
Green Bay Packers#14 Retired


Most seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most consecutive seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most points scored in a quarter: 29*
Most touchdowns scored in a quarter: 4*
Most touchdown receptions in a quarter: 4*
Most seasons led league, touchdowns: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, touchdowns: 4*
Most seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 9*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 5*
Most seasons led league, receptions: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receptions: 5*
Most seasons led league, receiving yards: 7*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving yards: 4*
Most receptions, career: 488
Most receptions, season: 74
Most receptions, game: 14
Most receiving yards, career: 7,991
Most receiving yards, season: 1,211
Most receiving yards, game: 209
Most receiving touchdowns, career: 99
Most touchdowns, season: 17
Most touchdowns, game: 4
Note: * = remains an NFL record.



Pretty damn impressive for a guy that played 1935-1945.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

Hutson had flashy stats too man.

Career NFL statistics
Receptions 488
Receiving Yards 7,991
Touchdowns 99

3x NFL Champion, 1936 1939 1944
Rated #9 NFL player of all-time by NFL.com
NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
NFL 1930s All-Decade Team
2× Joe F. Carr Trophy winner (1941, 1942)
Green Bay Packers all-time leading Touchdown receptions leader with 99
Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame
Green Bay Packers#14 Retired


Most seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most consecutive seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most points scored in a quarter: 29*
Most touchdowns scored in a quarter: 4*
Most touchdown receptions in a quarter: 4*
Most seasons led league, touchdowns: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, touchdowns: 4*
Most seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 9*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 5*
Most seasons led league, receptions: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receptions: 5*
Most seasons led league, receiving yards: 7*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving yards: 4*
Most receptions, career: 488
Most receptions, season: 74
Most receptions, game: 14
Most receiving yards, career: 7,991
Most receiving yards, season: 1,211
Most receiving yards, game: 209
Most receiving touchdowns, career: 99
Most touchdowns, season: 17
Most touchdowns, game: 4
Note: * = remains an NFL record.



Pretty damn impressive for a guy that played 1935-1945.

I didn't realize he still held so many records! Wow.

I think that shows too that the innovation of the Packers passing game was so far ahead of the rest of the league it led to those championships.

[Slappy from New Haven]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

Hutson had flashy stats too man.

Career NFL statistics
Receptions 488
Receiving Yards 7,991
Touchdowns 99

3x NFL Champion, 1936 1939 1944
Rated #9 NFL player of all-time by NFL.com
NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team
NFL 1930s All-Decade Team
2× Joe F. Carr Trophy winner (1941, 1942)
Green Bay Packers all-time leading Touchdown receptions leader with 99
Green Bay Packers Hall of Fame
Green Bay Packers#14 Retired


Most seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most consecutive seasons led league, scoring: 5*
Most points scored in a quarter: 29*
Most touchdowns scored in a quarter: 4*
Most touchdown receptions in a quarter: 4*
Most seasons led league, touchdowns: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, touchdowns: 4*
Most seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 9*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving touchdowns: 5*
Most seasons led league, receptions: 8*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receptions: 5*
Most seasons led league, receiving yards: 7*
Most consecutive seasons led league, receiving yards: 4*
Most receptions, career: 488
Most receptions, season: 74
Most receptions, game: 14
Most receiving yards, career: 7,991
Most receiving yards, season: 1,211
Most receiving yards, game: 209
Most receiving touchdowns, career: 99
Most touchdowns, season: 17
Most touchdowns, game: 4
Note: * = remains an NFL record.



Pretty damn impressive for a guy that played 1935-1945.

Don Hutson has Beast Mode tattooed on his bicep.

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by gmdino

I didn't realize he still held so many records! Wow.

I think that shows too that the innovation of the Packers passing game was so far ahead of the rest of the league it led to those championships.

Some of those stats are misleading such as Lead the league in touchdowns. This is because he also played defense so I don't really count that for his receiver resume.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

Some of those stats are misleading such as Lead the league in touchdowns. This is because he also played defense so I don't really count that for his receiver resume.

Hey, he still had to score...while playing both ways.

Look at George Blanda. Kicked, QB, etc. You still had to be able to do it.

[Blitzberg06]

Originally Posted by gmdino

Hey, he still had to score...while playing both ways.

Look at George Blanda. Kicked, QB, etc. You still had to be able to do it.

Touche. So my good sir while I hope I didn't hijack your thread..I just believe that Hutson was better.

[gmdino]

Originally Posted by Blitzberg06

Touche. So my good sir while I hope I didn't hijack your thread..I just believe that Hutson was better.

No problem. I like the debate.

The thing with Lewis is if you say he's slowed down and is hurting the team on pass coverage you are told he's 37 and injured and that can be expected.

But if you say he had 30 tackles in 2 games you are told its amazing how well he plays at his age and with the injuries he's had.

That's why I wanted to break down the whole tackles thing. Its a great number...but what does it mean?

I just listened to one of the Baltimore beat writers on the local sports radio saying Ray seems by all accounts to be a stand up guy...but he doesn't talk much to the press other than when he has to. Also a reporter got escorted out for asking about the Atlanta incident.

[Slappy from New Haven]

Originally Posted by gmdino

No problem. I like the debate.

The thing with Lewis is if you say he's slowed down and is hurting the team on pass coverage you are told he's 37 and injured and that can be expected.

But if you say he had 30 tackles in 2 games you are told its amazing how well he plays at his age and with the injuries he's had.

That's why I wanted to break down the whole tackles thing. Its a great number...but what does it mean?

I just listened to one of the Baltimore beat writers on the local sports radio saying Ray seems by all accounts to be a stand up guy...but he doesn't talk much to the press other than when he has to. Also a reporter got escorted out for asking about the Atlanta incident.

Ray as a person is a fraud, BS, and a liar

[Bmoreblitz]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

So Butkus was an all-pro for 88% of his career with no other defensive talent around him
Ray was an all pro for 59% of his career surrounded by a host of pro bowlers.

Every year of his career except one Butkus was the best MLB in football. Ray was the best a little over half of the time

You noted Ray has the NFL record for All-pro selections at 10. It took a 17 year career to beat the next closest (butkus, 8)who only played 9 years.

Butkus didn't have the ability to extend his career with HGH. Or state of the art surgery
Your assertion Butkus would have gone off the field on third down is incorrect, he was 6'3", 245 and yes he could cover.
To say he didn't go to the playoffs as a knock against his greatness is fan boy macking for Ray. The Bears as a team were horrible during his tenure.

Your observation on who is the greatest is disproven by your own statements

**** Butkus was not better than Ray Lewis by any measure. There isn't one thing he did better. The talking heads that say he's better are just nostalgic morons who are remembering stories their daddies told them.
It's the same way in baseball. People want to give the edge to older players. It feels good for some people that it was "the good old days" but in reality Butkus couldn't hold Ray's jock. Football wasn't even fully integrated at that time either.

Butkus, in his day, was one mean nasty SOB.. What Ray did was take the Linebacker position and redifined it and took it to a new level..

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by Bmoreblitz

**** Butkus was not better than Ray Lewis by any measure. There isn't one thing he did better. The talking heads that say he's better are just nostalgic morons who are remembering stories their daddies told them.
It's the same way in baseball. People want to give the edge to older players. It feels good for some people that it was "the good old days" but in reality Butkus couldn't hold Ray's jock. Football wasn't even fully integrated at that time either.

Butkus, in his day, was one mean nasty SOB.. What Ray did was take the Linebacker position and redifined it and took it to a new level..

Not that you would have a bias or anything...

For the record, I think he is at least top 5. I'm not sure if I'd say #1, though.

[Bmoreblitz]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

Ray as a person is a fraud, BS, and a liar

Didn't know that you knew him personally.

[Bmoreblitz]

Originally Posted by Bengalzona

Not that you would have a bias or anything...

For the record, I think he is at least top 5. I'm not sure if I'd say #1, though.

It's a good argument for Lambert and LT. But not the others. Definitley not Butkus.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The greatest middle linebacker? Hmm...that's a tough one. I certainly wouldn't put Ray Lewis at the top of this list although he might be in the top ten. I submit two names which I haven't seen listed yet: Bill George and Willie Lanier. Bill was the middle linebacker in Chicago when the Bears were winning i.e. before Richard Butkus. Willie played for the Chiefs when they were perennial Super Bowl contenders.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Woodley

Dare anyone to tell him he's not.

Well Hes Not...

Ill tell him to his face as long as i have witnesses