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  #26  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:01 PM
zero_threat zero_threat is offline
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Does Marvin Jones remind anyone of a younger poor mans version of Laverneous Coles?
Honestly, even if I were not a Bengals fan, the first person I would compare MJ to would be the man formerly known as Eight-Five. He's going to have the same exceptional tip-toe magic feet balance that Chad had. I can see it in nearly every sideline reception.
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  #27  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

While I'm intrigued with the signing of Lavasier Tuinei, who I think is the anti-Hawkins at 6'5" and 206 lbs, we still need to draft a guy to compete with Jones for the #2 WR job. I really would like to see us take DeAndre Hopkins. He looks like an ideal #2 guy. Watch what he does to LSU in this video.
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  #28  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:38 PM
Ian Demagii Ian Demagii is offline
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Sorry, Ian, but it is impossible for a WR to be an "effective red zone target" or "first down getter" if he has no way to get open. That just doesn't make any sense.

Sanu has all the skills that TJ had, and he worked our pretty well as a #2 WR opposite Chad.
Sure it is Fred, he out muscles guys the same way Mushin Mohamed did. He doesn't have to get open.

Ian
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  #29  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

I'd like a nice seasoned vet here. Someone who carries themselves well and knows how to get open. I'm talking about a guy near retirement, just to teach our guys, AJ included. Then after about two successful years they retire or move on making room for Jones opposite of AJ and Sanu in the slot with Baby Hawk set as the gadget/4th receiver
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  #30  
Old 01-18-2013, 04:23 PM
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bengals Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Ian Demagii View Post
Sorry OSUfan but Sanu will only get free via a scheme, he lacks top end speed to run by defenders,and lacks quick feet and swivel hips to separate ala Wes Welker or Steve Largent (to get deep). One report specifically cited that he will not get free via double moves and /or fakes. This is pretty damning. Also his route running was cited as "lazy." He is cited as an effective red zone target, and "first down getter."

I dont want Hartline as a top end free agent-that's why I did not mention him. Take him over Sanu-OH HELL YES! Offer him top tear money to come here, no. I frankly like Hartline a great deal, but not for tear one money, nor do I think Miami is going to part with him. Word out of Green Bay is Jennings is out, and the Steelers would like to move on from Wallace.

Greg Jennings would be my first choice, but I think he will be too rich even for Mikey. Wallace's speed scares people and might be right up "the Redeemers" alley. He might want to even up with his old team-double bonus.

These are the 5 or so assessments I have read this week as I pondered this situation.

Marvin Jones totally different he has a world of upside but is much more raw.

Ian
How can you make huge 3rd down catches and be a redzone threat and not be a good receiver? Do the laws of physics differ on 3rd down and in the redzone from what they are on 1st and 2nd down? You are a playmaker or you are not a playmaker.

How lazy were those 3rd down and redzone routes? I would question these "reports". Were they collegiate scouting reports? If so I may remind you that MJ had a motor problem and Atkins was not big enough to play every down according some collegiate scouting reports.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

[quote=ryanevans;2783627]I'd like a nice seasoned vet here. Someone who carries themselves well and knows how to get open. I'm talking about a guy near retirement, just to teach our guys, AJ included. Then after about two successful years they retire or move on making room for Jones opposite of AJ and Sanu in the slot with Baby Hawk set as the gadget/4th receiver[/quo

Last edited by twlssn03; 01-18-2013 at 04:28 PM. Reason: wrong post
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  #32  
Old 01-18-2013, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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One report specifically cited that he will not get free via double moves and /or fakes. This is pretty damning. Also his route running was cited as "lazy." He is cited as an effective red zone target, and "first down getter."
What reports are you referring to? A link would be nice. I am interested to see if these are pre-draft, post-draft etc.

Dude was money in the red zone though and if he can get first downs and score red zone touchdowns, he's better than anyone on the roster not named AJ.
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  #33  
Old 01-18-2013, 04:57 PM
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bengals Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
How can you make huge 3rd down catches and be a redzone threat and not be a good receiver? Do the laws of physics differ on 3rd down and in the redzone from what they are on 1st and 2nd down? You are a playmaker or you are not a playmaker.

How lazy were those 3rd down and redzone routes? I would question these "reports". Were they collegiate scouting reports? If so I may remind you that MJ had a motor problem and Atkins was not big enough to play every down according some collegiate scouting reports.
Mark this down, M. SANU will be super for us this coming sesson. this guy is going to be money if they use him right.I will say this.He will make his mark on our team this year, barring injury, of course.He knows how to catch the rock and how to get open and he is very strong for yac.we have inhouse plenty of receivers that can get it done.They need to use their draft picks on O-line and D-line, safety, center, and the best running back we can find or draft.If the dude from ohio state is coming out his junior year, i would use the bank to get that guy. he is the best in all of college football.Remember, ohio state went undefeated and the main reason is because of him.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:02 PM
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bengals Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
How can you make huge 3rd down catches and be a redzone threat and not be a good receiver? Do the laws of physics differ on 3rd down and in the redzone from what they are on 1st and 2nd down? You are a playmaker or you are not a playmaker.

How lazy were those 3rd down and redzone routes? I would question these "reports". Were they collegiate scouting reports? If so I may remind you that MJ had a motor problem and Atkins was not big enough to play every down according some collegiate scouting reports.
Never believe college reports all the way nor so-called nfl news guru's.All any of it is just an opinion. In some way, try to do your own study of a guy and gather as much info as you can from other players, scouts,his school coaches and especially what other players are saying about him, not what they tell the media.I feel as much as i slam old marvin on here, he does have a feel for guys, especially defensive players.All of us know that SANU will carry his own this year.I say what he can and will do and i am stoked he is here with us.
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  #35  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:13 PM
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bengals Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by M.W. View Post
I would be OK with your idea on the first 3 picks for sure.

I would just say it would be best to get the BPA (out of S,LB,H in the first 3 picks.

For WR we need an immediate impact so a #2 vet would be ideal and Hartline would be a great signing.
Does anyone on here know if Hartline is going to be available?? I mean i really do not know much about him except that he plays for miami and came from ohio state. he was very good in college. Why would miami let him go if he is that good. I mean are we wasting our time talking about this guy or is it realistic we have a shot at signing him??
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  #36  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

On Sanu, those "reports" are interesting because one thing he was doing when we FINALLY figured out Binns was garbage and let Sanu play was getting open with fakes and double moves. He also ran his routes correctly so that on timing passes he was where he was supposed to be. Add in being big and knowing how to use his body to cause separation and you have a great overall player package.

Second, speed is overrated in WRs. The best ones are not always the burners - they are the ones that play the position correctly in the technical arena. They run their routes correctly, they know how to use leverage and moves to get separation and also how to catch and hold on to the ball. Jerry Rice was not considered very fast - he achieved what he did because he played his position better than anyone else. Ditto a lot of other great receivers.
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  #37  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:18 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Does Marvin Jones remind anyone of a younger poor mans version of Laverneous Coles?
Hey if he turned out to be Coles in his prime id say we won with that draft pick. Coles was a beast with Jets
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  #38  
Old 01-18-2013, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Ian Demagii View Post
It is time to look at the receiving corp in depth.

AJ Green-the all pro-bets in the league not named Megatron!

now it gets more dicey:

Mohamed Sanu-possession type receiver who lacks deeps speed and quick moves (to get deep by using a double move) He will prove to be a good 3 or 4 WR, but not much more. This is a concensus of many scouting reports.

Marvin Jones-timed at 4.46 in the forty his best time was a blistering 4.36 he has a nice vert of 33 inches and good size and strength at 6'2 200. (Strongest WR in the draft). Jones has a lot of raw talent but is very raw suffering from a college QB with a scatter gun arm, and not faring much better with Andy Dalton. Route rubbing must be taught, and he is not ready to step in and start from the get go. Long term he could be a very valueable player.

Andrew Hawkins-at 5'7 his size is a detriment as an every down WR. He certainly is dynamic in the slot and plays should be devised to get him the ball in space. He has blazing speed 4.34 40 and amazing quickness.

Whalen and Tate-not impressed by Whalen and frankly want Tate waived. Whalen is Sanu-Sanu is Whalen. Frankly Whalen might be quicker and have more vertical upside. Whalen needs some playing time and different bals thrown his way and then a judgement should be made to keep him or let him walk.

This leads me to a Free Agent or Draft pick should be used to bring in a more dynamic receiver. I would certainly look at Mike Wallace or Greg Jennings. There do not seem to be many game breakers in this years draft at WR.

Jermaine Gresham-has amazing tools-he has lapses of concentration and suffers from too much wanting to make a big play-This needs to be fixed by the OC and position coach or he will walk at the end of his deal.

Orson Charles-probably too small to be a hand in the dirt TE at 6'3 250 and had a disappointing 40 time 4.75-He seems like he plays faster but again more balls need to come his way to see.
I don't know why everyone is down on Whalen all of the time. The only thing he does is catch the ball. Good 4th or 5th receiver.
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  #39  
Old 01-18-2013, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

I think Sanu is really more of a slot receiver anyway, where the speed issue will not come into play as much. He and Hawkins can share some snaps there, according to the situation and both bring unique things to the table. Sanu is a tough runner for yards after catch, and Hawkins brings a lot of quick, making him extremely hard to cover in certain sets. I don't mind handing Sanu the ball out of the backfield once in awhile, either.

I think a lot of people are undervaluing Marvin Jones. I think he showed real promise, and will only be better in his second year. His injury came at an unfortunate time, and hurt is development in his rookie season, but I think this guy will do it for us.

I also like Whalen and agree with the poster who said all he does is catch the ball. He can be a good utility player for us, both in the slot and occasionally outside.

Tate can run and catch, but it seems to me that he just has no deception in his patterns, and has a hard time getting open. I just don't really see much of a role for him in the regular offense.

If an outstanding receiver is available, you'd have to look at it, but I think these guys we have can become a really outstanding group, and take the pressure off AJ.

But I really think we can improve the team more by concentrating on other areas: running back, safety, linebacker.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Ian Demagii View Post
It is time to look at the receiving corp in depth.

AJ Green-the all pro-bets in the league not named Megatron!

now it gets more dicey:

Mohamed Sanu-possession type receiver who lacks deeps speed and quick moves (to get deep by using a double move) He will prove to be a good 3 or 4 WR, but not much more. This is a concensus of many scouting reports.

Marvin Jones-timed at 4.46 in the forty his best time was a blistering 4.36 he has a nice vert of 33 inches and good size and strength at 6'2 200. (Strongest WR in the draft). Jones has a lot of raw talent but is very raw suffering from a college QB with a scatter gun arm, and not faring much better with Andy Dalton. Route rubbing must be taught, and he is not ready to step in and start from the get go. Long term he could be a very valueable player.

Andrew Hawkins-at 5'7 his size is a detriment as an every down WR. He certainly is dynamic in the slot and plays should be devised to get him the ball in space. He has blazing speed 4.34 40 and amazing quickness.

Whalen and Tate-not impressed by Whalen and frankly want Tate waived. Whalen is Sanu-Sanu is Whalen. Frankly Whalen might be quicker and have more vertical upside. Whalen needs some playing time and different bals thrown his way and then a judgement should be made to keep him or let him walk.

This leads me to a Free Agent or Draft pick should be used to bring in a more dynamic receiver. I would certainly look at Mike Wallace or Greg Jennings. There do not seem to be many game breakers in this years draft at WR.

Jermaine Gresham-has amazing tools-he has lapses of concentration and suffers from too much wanting to make a big play-This needs to be fixed by the OC and position coach or he will walk at the end of his deal.

Orson Charles-probably too small to be a hand in the dirt TE at 6'3 250 and had a disappointing 40 time 4.75-He seems like he plays faster but again more balls need to come his way to see.
I've got a chub for Hartline to get added as our #2, I think Sanu will be a wonderful #3. From there you drill Gresh hard to stop with the drops, and to a lesser extent AJ as well. I think a quality tandem like AJ and Hartline will result in huge plays for Hawkins and Gresh. Sanu has the look of a high caliber chain mover/red zone target to me.
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  #41  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:02 PM
Ian Demagii Ian Demagii is offline
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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What reports are you referring to? A link would be nice. I am interested to see if these are pre-draft, post-draft etc.

Dude was money in the red zone though and if he can get first downs and score red zone touchdowns, he's better than anyone on the roster not named AJ.
Condensed from about 5 different NFL scout sites. I will post if I have time over the weekend. Also wanted to mention at a private try out Sanu ran reportedly 4.41 which I question.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rospects-game:

Pro Sanu review: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...prospects-game

His pro day: http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/04/01/rece...tgers-pro-day/

here is a pretty damning one from NFL.com: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profil...anu?id=2533040 one I really trust

more later...
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Ian Demagii View Post
It is time to look at the receiving corp in depth.

AJ Green-the all pro-bets in the league not named Megatron!

now it gets more dicey:

Mohamed Sanu-possession type receiver who lacks deeps speed and quick moves (to get deep by using a double move) He will prove to be a good 3 or 4 WR, but not much more. This is a concensus of many scouting reports.

Marvin Jones-timed at 4.46 in the forty his best time was a blistering 4.36 he has a nice vert of 33 inches and good size and strength at 6'2 200. (Strongest WR in the draft). Jones has a lot of raw talent but is very raw suffering from a college QB with a scatter gun arm, and not faring much better with Andy Dalton. Route rubbing must be taught, and he is not ready to step in and start from the get go. Long term he could be a very valueable player.

Andrew Hawkins-at 5'7 his size is a detriment as an every down WR. He certainly is dynamic in the slot and plays should be devised to get him the ball in space. He has blazing speed 4.34 40 and amazing quickness.

Whalen and Tate-not impressed by Whalen and frankly want Tate waived. Whalen is Sanu-Sanu is Whalen. Frankly Whalen might be quicker and have more vertical upside. Whalen needs some playing time and different bals thrown his way and then a judgement should be made to keep him or let him walk.

This leads me to a Free Agent or Draft pick should be used to bring in a more dynamic receiver. I would certainly look at Mike Wallace or Greg Jennings. There do not seem to be many game breakers in this years draft at WR.

Jermaine Gresham-has amazing tools-he has lapses of concentration and suffers from too much wanting to make a big play-This needs to be fixed by the OC and position coach or he will walk at the end of his deal.

Orson Charles-probably too small to be a hand in the dirt TE at 6'3 250 and had a disappointing 40 time 4.75-He seems like he plays faster but again more balls need to come his way to see.
We have the 22nd or 23rd best offense so obviously we need major improvement:

1. I agree we have 1 great wide receiver and a bunch of unproven guys behind him. I think our big mistake was not going after a Jacoby Jones who could have filled Tate's role better on special teams and is a better receiver than Tate. But, 2012 is over. I hope we go after Amedola or Hartline. Those who think Amendola is a slot receiver are vey wrong. I get the NFL ticket and watched him play almost every game (when healthy). He tore up the 49er's on the outside.

2. We also need a speed RB from free agency like a Bush or Woodhead.

3. I would love to see us draft a TE in round one. Either Eifert or Ertz.

4. I am not sold on our OL, but we need to resign Smith and keep developing Boling, Zeitler and Robinson. I would draft a center/guard in round 3 if the guy from Bama is still there. If not, I would draft the best available OT thinking of Whitt's replacement in 3 or 4 years.
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  #43  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:37 PM
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I wouldn't use a high draft pick on another WR. I would sign a good NUMBER 2 guy and see how things play out in preseason. This team is not in a position to spend an arm and a leg on a #2 WR even with the cap space so signing the biggest WR free agent wouldn't be prudent either.
Unless a super prospect is in the draft, I say forget getting a #2 WR via this year's draft.
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  #44  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:09 PM
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bengals Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Ian Demagii View Post
Condensed from about 5 different NFL scout sites. I will post if I have time over the weekend. Also wanted to mention at a private try out Sanu ran reportedly 4.41 which I question.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rospects-game:

Pro Sanu review: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...prospects-game

His pro day: http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/04/01/rece...tgers-pro-day/

here is a pretty damning one from NFL.com: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profil...anu?id=2533040 one I really trust

The one you really trust is a draft scouting report. Guess what .....they were wrong. Just like people were wrong about the motor of MJ and the size of Atkins. There is zero that damning about that report.

Did you watch him play this season? If so then how can you stand by that draft report?

more later...
Your "damning" report is a draft scouting report. Guess what? They were wrong. Just like draft reports were wrong about the motor of MJ and the size of Atkins. If you watched him play this season then I do not see how you stand behind a report that was obviously wrong.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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We have the 22nd or 23rd best offense so obviously we need major improvement:

1. I agree we have 1 great wide receiver and a bunch of unproven guys behind him. I think our big mistake was not going after a Jacoby Jones who could have filled Tate's role better on special teams and is a better receiver than Tate. But, 2012 is over. I hope we go after Amedola or Hartline. Those who think Amendola is a slot receiver are vey wrong. I get the NFL ticket and watched him play almost every game (when healthy). He tore up the 49er's on the outside.

2. We also need a speed RB from free agency like a Bush or Woodhead.

3. I would love to see us draft a TE in round one. Either Eifert or Ertz.

4. I am not sold on our OL, but we need to resign Smith and keep developing Boling, Zeitler and Robinson. I would draft a center/guard in round 3 if the guy from Bama is still there. If not, I would draft the best available OT thinking of Whitt's replacement in 3 or 4 years.
I guess you aren't paying any attention to the age that the Bengals have on defense, the lack of drafted 1st round talent verses the offense (4 v. 2), the huge number of "patch" free agents, and the fact that our DC has made a top 10 defense with chicken wire and duct tape the last several years.

Chris Crocker (starter) needs to be upgraded. Nate Clements can't be a Bengal in 2013. Rey Maualuga needs to go and be replaced with a top talent draft pick. If Reggie Nelson would get injured, our Safety corp would literally fall apart.

Last edited by mulligan; 01-18-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

Here are the current receivers on the team, ps guys included. The first three guys will be back next year. I am betting Hawkins will be as well, at this point that is. That leaves Tate, Whalen, and Sanz.

AJ Green
Mohamed Sanu - IR
Marvin Jones

Andrew Hawkins
Brandon Tate
Ryan Whalen
Dane Sanzenbacher
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Justin Hilton - ps
Lavasier Tuinei - res/future spot


Basically I have a couple thoughts on the receivers. First they need to find somebody to replace Tate that is better at receiver and could play as a starter if need be. I think Jones and Sanu will be good for us next year, but if that injury bug pops up, they need better depth than this.

Second thought is they should try and get a better slot guy either through the draft or free agency. Maybe Sanz could be that guy, I dont know though. Either way try to upgrade the slot with someone that is taller than Hawk, but quick & agile that can work the middle with soft hands, and can take a hit as well. Keep Hawk and use him at times, but he just isnt suited in this offense to be the slot guy all the time. His 5'7'' height and Andy's 6'2'' just doesn't seem to mesh well enough yet on a consistent basis.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:03 AM
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We have the WR on this rostor to be good enough to win a playoff game next year.
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  #48  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:14 AM
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We have the WR on this rostor to be good enough to win a playoff game next year.
Only if we upgrade RB or QB. And I like Dalton, but if we don't give him a better run game, he's not the sort of QB that can just go out and beat good teams in the playoffs with just his passing. Not many QBs can though. The obvious upgrade that needs made is at RB. We can certainly afford a better WR2 as well and that would help too.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:10 AM
Ian Demagii Ian Demagii is offline
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
Your "damning" report is a draft scouting report. Guess what? They were wrong. Just like draft reports were wrong about the motor of MJ and the size of Atkins. If you watched him play this season then I do not see how you stand behind a report that was obviously wrong.
They were not wrong, Sanu has not even been through an entire season-and one players success or failure does not mean another will be the same way. Played in 9 games had receptions only in 5-take off your Sanu rose colored glasses. This guy is Ronnie Harmon or Preston Peirson-not a "usual NFL WR" and he will fail if the Bengals try to use him that way!

Ian
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:18 AM
Ian Demagii Ian Demagii is offline
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Default Re: Realistic view of the receiving corp

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Originally Posted by Millz View Post
Here are the current receivers on the team, ps guys included. The first three guys will be back next year. I am betting Hawkins will be as well, at this point that is. That leaves Tate, Whalen, and Sanz.

AJ Green
Mohamed Sanu - IR
Marvin Jones

Andrew Hawkins
Brandon Tate
Ryan Whalen
Dane Sanzenbacher
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Justin Hilton - ps
Lavasier Tuinei - res/future spot


Basically I have a couple thoughts on the receivers. First they need to find somebody to replace Tate that is better at receiver and could play as a starter if need be. I think Jones and Sanu will be good for us next year, but if that injury bug pops up, they need better depth than this.

Second thought is they should try and get a better slot guy either through the draft or free agency. Maybe Sanz could be that guy, I dont know though. Either way try to upgrade the slot with someone that is taller than Hawk, but quick & agile that can work the middle with soft hands, and can take a hit as well. Keep Hawk and use him at times, but he just isnt suited in this offense to be the slot guy all the time. His 5'7'' height and Andy's 6'2'' just doesn't seem to mesh well enough yet on a consistent basis.
Can you imagine Brady and Baby Hawk? Maybe he would like to go to a team that can use his skill set better: New Orleans, New England, Indy-all come to mind, but he will probably have to wait at least a year (exclusive rights free agent).
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