Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20) - Page 22 - Cincinnati Bengals Message Boards

J24 · #**526** 01-22-2013, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Just to put this out there....in his 8 starts (or whatever it is) CK has beat and outplayed 4 elite QB's in shootouts.

Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Matt Ryan (playoffs)
Aaron Rodgers (playoffs)

Dalton has outplayed Eli (not Elite IMO) and outplayed Ben (Elite QB....while neither QB lit it up Dalton did enough to win). In the playoffs, Dalton was outplayed by Matt Schaub (probably a better comparison than CK) and TJ friggin' Yates.

Drew Brees, Brady, Matt Ryan, and Araon Rodgers were playing the best defense in the NFL while Colin was playing Garbage defenses.

D.Boon · #**527** 01-22-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J24

Drew Brees, Brady, Matt Ryan, and Araon Rodgers were playing the best defense in the NFL while Colin was playing Garbage defenses.

You don't find that impressive? Geez...How about leading his team back against the Falcons in what is considered to be one of the toughest places to play on the biggest of stages? Not impressed? He also tore up Chicago, considered to be one of the best defenses in the NFL. Does that count as being impressive by your insanely lofty standards?

Pezmerga · #**528** 01-22-2013, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Boon

No, I'm not saying he's a better QB than those guys...but I think he outplayed them head to head which is extremely impressive for a guy as young as he is. Plus, the QB is the defacto leader on offense. CK lead his team to victory in two of the toughest places to play (NE and ATL). I'm not going to compare the guy to John Elway (like some do with Dalton which is hilarious) but to start his career the way he has, show the poise and command that he has and lead his team to the SB is beyond stellar.

As I've said before, I don't have an issue with the Bengals taking Dalton as that was who Gruden wanted...but if I got to pick between those two QB's right now I think you would have to be insane to take Dalton over CK.

CK has more upside, but Dalton has a bigger body of work to go for him. So I don't think it'd be insane to choose Dalton. It isn't easy to compare players like this. You have to consider that no team has really had to gameplan to shut down anyone other than AJ Green. Making it harder on Dalton.

CK has one of the best TE's in the game, a good Ground game (granted he is a threat to run himself), and overall a better WR corps. AJ green is better than any of their WR's, but CK has more consistency across the board. Dalton has no one that is reliable outside of AJ Green. So of course CK looks amazing. Not taking anything away from him, it's just something to consider.

BengalYankee · #**529** 01-22-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

No, it just means they wish their own team had better coaching. Wishing the best for your team is consistent with being a good fan. By your logic, every fan must think Lewis is the best coach in the league or go be a fan of another team. Nobody in his right mind, no matter how passionate a fan of the team, thinks Lewis is the league's best coach.

You are shooting friendly fire.

I don't feel that way about Lewis. Yet the hypocrites will say Dalton is better than Colin and if you feel otherwise, become a 49er fan. I say be consistent if you feel Tom Coughlin is a better coach then Marvin, become a Giants fan.

McC · #**530** 01-22-2013, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

You are shooting friendly fire.

I don't feel that way about Lewis. Yet the hypocrites will say Dalton is better than Colin and if you feel otherwise, become a 49er fan. I say be consistent if you feel Tom Coughlin is a better coach then Marvin, become a Giants fan.

I think there might be a flaw in your logic.

BengalYankee · #**531** 01-22-2013, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graphicguy

Yep....I'm sure that's the Raven's plan. I think most are judging CK from the Green Bay game. I think that performance had more to do with Green Bay's horrid defensive breakdown than CK's ability.

Ravens like to do what Zimmer does with the Bengals. They like to put the QB on the ground. Stay on your assignment and you won't lose containment. If CK wants to be a RB, Ravens will treat him like one (just like I'd imagine Zimmer would do).

We've all seen what happens when you put a QB on the ground a few times, even big QBs like Ben R. They get to the 3rd and 4th qtr and aren't quite as fast, aren't quite as strong, more likely to make mistakes out of fear of being pummeled one more time.

I think Balt does win. They're the better team, playing better football right now. And, you give me a choice between Flacco and CK right now? Flacco is my overwhelming choice.

For as much grief as he's taken, he's deadly accurate and knows who to make that offense click.

I always get the feeling that CK is one errant pass, one scramble from disaster.

Indirectly you are saying Dalton is the 3rd best QB in the AFC North.

BengalYankee · #**532** 01-22-2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McC

I think there might be a flaw in your logic.

Why is there a flaw?

How about if I say Doug Martin is a better RB then our RB, does that mean I am a Bucs fan?

THEBURG · #**533** 01-22-2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Indirectly you are saying Dalton is the 3rd best QB in the AFC North.

I approve of this post.

D.Boon · #**534** 01-22-2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

CK has more upside, but Dalton has a bigger body of work to go for him. So I don't think it'd be insane to choose Dalton. It isn't easy to compare players like this. You have to consider that no team has really had to gameplan to shut down anyone other than AJ Green. Making it harder on Dalton.

CK has one of the best TE's in the game, a good Ground game (granted he is a threat to run himself), and overall a better WR corps. AJ green is better than any of their WR's, but CK has more consistency across the board. Dalton has no one that is reliable outside of AJ Green. So of course CK looks amazing. Not taking anything away from him, it's just something to consider.

Here's what I look at when evaluating QB's:

Physical traights and athletic ability (i.e. height, weight, speed)
Accuracy
Arm Strength
Anticipation
Pocket Poise
Intangibles (i.e. leadership and ability to play big in big games).

You know what, CK is better than Dalton in every single area IMO. Do you think Dalton is superior by any of these measures?

graphicguy · #**535** 01-22-2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McC

Hey, Manny Lawson got the Redskins out of the triple option when he planted RGIII. I'd say the Ravens plan on hitting the hell outa everyone. You can't beat them, as much as I hate them, if you can't outhit them.

Exactly what I was thinking!

Pezmerga · #**536** 01-22-2013, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Here's what I look at when evaluating QB's:

Physical traights and athletic ability (i.e. height, weight, speed)
Accuracy
Arm Strength
Anticipation
Pocket Poise
Intangibles (i.e. leadership and ability to play big in big games).

You know what, CK is better than Dalton in every single area IMO. Do you think Dalton is superior by any of these measures?

Yes, if you go purely by measurables, CK is the clear cut winner. However, Dalton has done a great job for what he has had to work with. I prefer to go by results, while factoring in what each has around him.

I think Dalton is very smart and a good leader. It is a little early to give CK the nod in being a better leader. He is on a very good team that already had established leaders. I would like to see him go through some more adversity before saying CK clearly wins in this category.

Dalton is accurate too. Yes his deep balls need work, but I also feel that also lies on developing chemistry with our young WR's too.

It will be interesting to revisit this debate in a couple years. I feel like we don't know enough about CK. Obviously if Dalton has a downward trend and CK stays the same, we made the wrong choice. I really don't see that happening though. Dalton did make some progress this year. hanging in there and getting the win vs Pittsburgh was huge. Even if it was an ugly win.

I wouldn't be surprised, if in a couple years, we can say we are happy to have Dalton and the 49ers are lucky to have CK.

shaolinghost · #**537** 01-22-2013, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anderson_fan1988

I say that because we would have made him a pocket QB and not ran the option read he runs in SF. Also it's hard to escape when the pressure comes from up the middle, hell it's hard to pass for that matter.
As to him not being injured, he hasn't played the whole season so he is pretty fresh compared to others, and he is only one big hit away from possibly being injured. Thats the risk with those running QBs.

That's a risk with every QB.

Aaron Rodgers
Russel Wilson
Ryan Tannehill
Cam Newton

All are considered mobile QBs, but none of them were injured this year. In fact, Cam hasn't missed a game in 2 seasons but still runs more than any QB in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Carson Palmer, a QB considered to be one of the least mobile, right up there with P. Manning and Tom Brady, suffered a major rib injury from inside the pocket.
In fact, all 3 of those guys have had career threatening injuries(Manning with his neck, and Brady/Palmer with the ACL)

So, maybe running QBs are more prone to injury than pocket passers, but as far as serious injury I think it's pretty even. RG3 aggravated his knee injury in the playoffs because he was rushed back, so I'd put that on the coaching staff more so than his style of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

I think Dalton is very smart and a good leader. It is a little early to give CK the nod in being a better leader. He is on a very good team that already had established leaders. I would like to see him go through some more adversity before saying CK clearly wins in this category.

Dalton is accurate too. Yes his deep balls need work, but I also feel that also lies on developing chemistry with our young WR's too.

It will be interesting to revisit this debate in a couple years. I feel like we don't know enough about CK. Obviously if Dalton has a downward trend and CK stays the same, we made the wrong choice. I really don't see that happening though. Dalton did make some progress this year. hanging in there and getting the win vs Pittsburgh was huge. Even if it was an ugly win.

I wouldn't be surprised, if in a couple years, we can say we are happy to have Dalton and the 49ers are lucky to have CK.

To the bolded points...
Kaepernick showed strength in adversity with an overtime win against a divisional opponent(Rams), and a comeback victory in the NFCC against the Falcons in Atlanta.

As far as chemistry goes, you've got to remember that CK wasn't taking 1st team snaps until the 8th-9th week of this season, so he has limited chemistry with Crabtree, Moss, and Davis.

Like you said though, Dalton is still a fine QB to this point, but CK looks to be better all things considered.

eoxyod · #**538** 01-22-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anderson_fan1988

and he is only one big hit away from possibly being injured.

Every other QB in the league is immune from this possibility, however

Shake n Blake · #**539** 01-22-2013, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Here's what I look at when evaluating QB's:

Physical traights and athletic ability (i.e. height, weight, speed)
Accuracy
Arm Strength
Anticipation
Pocket Poise
Intangibles (i.e. leadership and ability to play big in big games).

You know what, CK is better than Dalton in every single area IMO. Do you think Dalton is superior by any of these measures?

These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.

Pezmerga · #**540** 01-22-2013, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

That's a risk with every QB.

Aaron Rodgers
Russel Wilson
Ryan Tannehill
Cam Newton

All are considered mobile QBs, but none of them were injured this year. In fact, Cam hasn't missed a game in 2 seasons but still runs more than any QB in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Carson Palmer, a QB considered to be one of the least mobile, right up there with P. Manning and Tom Brady, suffered a major rib injury from inside the pocket.
In fact, all 3 of those guys have had career threatening injuries(Manning with his neck, and Brady/Palmer with the ACL)

So, maybe running QBs are more prone to injury than pocket passers, but as far as serious injury I think it's pretty even. RG3 aggravated his knee injury in the playoffs because he was rushed back, so I'd put that on the coaching staff more so than his style of play.

To the bolded points...
Kaepernick showed strength in adversity with an overtime win against a divisional opponent(Rams), and a comeback victory in the NFCC against the Falcons in Atlanta.

As far as chemistry goes, you've got to remember that CK wasn't taking 1st team snaps until the 8th-9th week of this season, so he has limited chemistry with Crabtree, Moss, and Davis.

Like you said though, Dalton is still a fine QB to this point, but CK looks to be better all things considered.

Yes he did, but I would like to see more. What if it's a fluke? Not saying it is, but we have seen it before.

Fair point. I think the experience of his receivers makes up for that a little bit. He certainly has been good though. I am not taking that away from him. I just need to see more of this level of play.

I think once CK has played at least 2 full seasons we can do a better comparison. Yes, CK has been very good so far. But that doesn't guarantee he will continue to play at that level. On the flip side Dalton could regress. We just don't know.

eoxyod · #**541** 01-22-2013, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.

Uhh...how are those debatable? He gets the ball there. Poise? He has had issues and brought his teams roaring back. Dalton freaks out at any semblance of pressure.

savagehenry54 · #**542** 01-22-2013, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Every other QB in the league is immune from this possibility, however

Almost. In the pocket, you can barely touch them without getting a flag. Once they run, they're just another RB and will get pounded accordingly, legally. That's why a QB that runs a lot better also know how to get down. The more they run, especially on designed runs via the read option, the more the odds increase that they get injured, there's no denying that.

Bengals Mike · #**543** 01-22-2013, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

I understand what you're saying tho, he still gets the Modell treatment by some in Cleveland for getting rid of Bernie Kosar there and of course he wasnt hailed as this genius he is now, compared to New England he did next to nothing in Cleveland, and even less in New York where technically he was the 14th head coach in Jets history for all 24 hours he had the job

savagehenry54 · #**544** 01-22-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Uhh...how are those debatable? He gets the ball there. Poise? He has had issues and brought his teams roaring back. Dalton freaks out at any semblance of pressure.

I'll give him arm strength and pocket poise but Dalton don't "freak at any semblance of pressure". Accuracy is probably in his favor too but he's throwing to receivers that have a lot more room in the secondary to work with due the respect teams have to pay SF's run game.

San Fran is loaded, a lot of QBs, Dalton included, may well have them in the SB right now too. Kaepernick is good, but he probably isn't as good as he looks right now. That team is absolutely stacked.

basballguy · #**545** 01-22-2013, 02:55 PM

will this thread ever die?

eoxyod · #**546** 01-22-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Almost. In the pocket, you can barely touch them without getting a flag. Once they run, they're just another RB and will get pounded accordingly, legally. That's why a QB that runs a lot better also know how to get down. The more they run, especially on designed runs via the read option, the more the odds increase that they get injured, there's no denying that.

QBs can still get killed, and QB almost never get injured on the run anyways. Most injuries occur from within the pocket in almost every case. A QB who runs gets hit just as much as a QB who has a poor offensive line (Except with less people who weigh 280+ laying on top of you)

Quote:

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

I'll give him arm strength and pocket poise but Dalton don't "freak at any semblance of pressure". Accuracy is probably in his favor too but he's throwing to receivers that have a lot more room in the secondary to work with due the respect teams have to pay SF's run game.

San Fran is loaded, a lot of QBs, Dalton included, may well have them in the SB right now too. Kaepernick is good, but he probably isn't as good as he looks right now. That team is absolutely stacked.

Dalton's pocket presence is some of the worst I've ever seen. Very few QBs run into sacks, run away from the pocket unnecessarily, and have no idea where the pressure is coming from like him. I am not exaggerating here. He's had this problem in college and it hasn't improved yet. I can deal with problems by a young QB, but Dalton has barely made any noticeable progress from college to rookie to 2nd year player. Why should we expect him to improve more? I've said I'll give Dalton another year, but after that, I'm going for Bridgewater like no other.