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  #551  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
Here's what I look at when evaluating QB's:

Physical traights and athletic ability (i.e. height, weight, speed)
Accuracy
Arm Strength
Anticipation
Pocket Poise
Intangibles (i.e. leadership and ability to play big in big games).

You know what, CK is better than Dalton in every single area IMO. Do you think Dalton is superior by any of these measures?
These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.
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  #552  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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That's a risk with every QB.

Aaron Rodgers
Russel Wilson
Ryan Tannehill
Cam Newton

All are considered mobile QBs, but none of them were injured this year. In fact, Cam hasn't missed a game in 2 seasons but still runs more than any QB in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Carson Palmer, a QB considered to be one of the least mobile, right up there with P. Manning and Tom Brady, suffered a major rib injury from inside the pocket.
In fact, all 3 of those guys have had career threatening injuries(Manning with his neck, and Brady/Palmer with the ACL)

So, maybe running QBs are more prone to injury than pocket passers, but as far as serious injury I think it's pretty even. RG3 aggravated his knee injury in the playoffs because he was rushed back, so I'd put that on the coaching staff more so than his style of play.



To the bolded points...
Kaepernick showed strength in adversity with an overtime win against a divisional opponent(Rams), and a comeback victory in the NFCC against the Falcons in Atlanta.

As far as chemistry goes, you've got to remember that CK wasn't taking 1st team snaps until the 8th-9th week of this season, so he has limited chemistry with Crabtree, Moss, and Davis.

Like you said though, Dalton is still a fine QB to this point, but CK looks to be better all things considered.
Yes he did, but I would like to see more. What if it's a fluke? Not saying it is, but we have seen it before.

Fair point. I think the experience of his receivers makes up for that a little bit. He certainly has been good though. I am not taking that away from him. I just need to see more of this level of play.

I think once CK has played at least 2 full seasons we can do a better comparison. Yes, CK has been very good so far. But that doesn't guarantee he will continue to play at that level. On the flip side Dalton could regress. We just don't know.
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  #553  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.
Uhh...how are those debatable? He gets the ball there. Poise? He has had issues and brought his teams roaring back. Dalton freaks out at any semblance of pressure.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Every other QB in the league is immune from this possibility, however
Almost. In the pocket, you can barely touch them without getting a flag. Once they run, they're just another RB and will get pounded accordingly, legally. That's why a QB that runs a lot better also know how to get down. The more they run, especially on designed runs via the read option, the more the odds increase that they get injured, there's no denying that.
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  #555  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I understand what you're saying tho, he still gets the Modell treatment by some in Cleveland for getting rid of Bernie Kosar there and of course he wasnt hailed as this genius he is now, compared to New England he did next to nothing in Cleveland, and even less in New York where technically he was the 14th head coach in Jets history for all 24 hours he had the job
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:53 PM
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Uhh...how are those debatable? He gets the ball there. Poise? He has had issues and brought his teams roaring back. Dalton freaks out at any semblance of pressure.
I'll give him arm strength and pocket poise but Dalton don't "freak at any semblance of pressure". Accuracy is probably in his favor too but he's throwing to receivers that have a lot more room in the secondary to work with due the respect teams have to pay SF's run game.

San Fran is loaded, a lot of QBs, Dalton included, may well have them in the SB right now too. Kaepernick is good, but he probably isn't as good as he looks right now. That team is absolutely stacked.
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  #557  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

will this thread ever die?
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  #558  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Almost. In the pocket, you can barely touch them without getting a flag. Once they run, they're just another RB and will get pounded accordingly, legally. That's why a QB that runs a lot better also know how to get down. The more they run, especially on designed runs via the read option, the more the odds increase that they get injured, there's no denying that.
QBs can still get killed, and QB almost never get injured on the run anyways. Most injuries occur from within the pocket in almost every case. A QB who runs gets hit just as much as a QB who has a poor offensive line (Except with less people who weigh 280+ laying on top of you)
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I'll give him arm strength and pocket poise but Dalton don't "freak at any semblance of pressure". Accuracy is probably in his favor too but he's throwing to receivers that have a lot more room in the secondary to work with due the respect teams have to pay SF's run game.

San Fran is loaded, a lot of QBs, Dalton included, may well have them in the SB right now too. Kaepernick is good, but he probably isn't as good as he looks right now. That team is absolutely stacked.
Dalton's pocket presence is some of the worst I've ever seen. Very few QBs run into sacks, run away from the pocket unnecessarily, and have no idea where the pressure is coming from like him. I am not exaggerating here. He's had this problem in college and it hasn't improved yet. I can deal with problems by a young QB, but Dalton has barely made any noticeable progress from college to rookie to 2nd year player. Why should we expect him to improve more? I've said I'll give Dalton another year, but after that, I'm going for Bridgewater like no other.
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  #559  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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will this thread ever die?

Grab you Smith & Wesson Desert Eagle or Bodyguard. Fire one time at the screen. See if this thread is still alive.


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  #560  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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will this thread ever die?
This thread is like football porn to me right now. I'm loving this
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  #561  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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This thread is like football porn to me right now. I'm loving this
I'm enjoying the debate. Good threads are hard to come by in the offseason.
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  #562  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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will this thread ever die?
Baseballguy and this thread.


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  #563  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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QBs can still get killed, and QB almost never get injured on the run anyways. Most injuries occur from within the pocket in almost every case. A QB who runs gets hit just as much as a QB who has a poor offensive line (Except with less people who weigh 280+ laying on top of you)

I've seen plenty of QBs get hurt outside the pocket, Vick (running QB, can't stay healthy), Trent Green was actually in the act of sliding when Geathers basically ended his career. And like I said, the protections afforded QBs to try and avoid those injuries don't exist outside the pocket......

So as the read option becomes more prevalent, you're going to see it more and more. It's easy when 95% of QBs are typical pocket passers to say that's where the injuries occur. As the read option gains steam, those dudes will go down, not afforded the added protection of the pocket as NFL defenders adjust to the threat and take full advantage of QBs being as exposed as RBs.



Dalton's pocket presence is some of the worst I've ever seen. Very few QBs run into sacks, run away from the pocket unnecessarily, and have no idea where the pressure is coming from like him. I am not exaggerating here. He's had this problem in college and it hasn't improved yet. I can deal with problems by a young QB, but Dalton has barely made any noticeable progress from college to rookie to 2nd year player. Why should we expect him to improve more? I've said I'll give Dalton another year, but after that, I'm going for Bridgewater like no other.
He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.
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  #564  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.
I don't see how these are debatable.

-CK clearly more athletic than Dalton and posseses better physical gifts. Clear cut winner.

-CK has lead his team to victory agains the highest level of competion in the NFL and on the biggest stage. He (and the niners...but CK is a huge part of the equation) have beat the Patriots, Falcons, Packers, Bears and the Saints. Dalton played his worst game of the season when his team needed him the most. He struggled mightily down the stetch. people talk about CK having a great O-line...what about Dalton and the defense? What do you think Andy's W-L record would've been over the home stretch without the D bailing him and the offense out?

-Poise- CK keeps his eyes up field under pressure. He also has total command of that offense. Seems calm in the face of adversity.

-Accuracy- I'll probably catch some flack for this as accuracy is supposed to be Dalton's strength...but I see AD as an inaccurate passer (epspecially 15+ yeards down the field). To me, its a highly dissapointing aspect of his game. CK has been deadly accurate. In the NFL, throws have to be to a precise spot. There are no wide open WR's typically. The window is small. CK has been threading the needle. He puts the ball exactly where it needs to go. he also is accurate 20+ yards down the field. Dalton really struggles when his WR's are well covered. During the home stetch, he struggled to hit the tight window that he needed to.

So while you say it's 'debatable' I think it's pretty clear cut.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/pos...se-quarterback


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...2374--nfl.html

"With 11:10 left in the first half and the ball on his own 38-yard line, Dalton tried to throw a deep pass to receiver Marvin Jones -- a throw that would have required Jones to beat two Texans defenders and Dalton's pass to split the defenders. It's a pass that perhaps five NFL quarterbacks can make consistently. Dalton's pass, however, was at least five yards short, and it was almost intercepted by Texans cornerback Kareem Jackson."
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.
The offense was anemic down the stetch and that's when Dalton seemed to really regress with the mental aspect of the game. All in all I think Dalton is pretty good. I'm not sure if he has the physical tools to go to the next level. We can talk about 'intangibles' till we're blue in the face but at some point physical talent needs to be entered in to the equation. I do think Dalton is a serviceable QB that you can win with...I hope he progresses this year. I hope that he can throw the ball with velocity and accuracy down the field. I hope that he can start seeing the field better and going through his progressions. We'll see. I think Year 3 will be a critical year for him.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:40 PM
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I don't see how these are debatable.

-CK clearly more athletic than Dalton and posseses better physical gifts. Clear cut winner.

-CK has lead his team to victory agains the highest level of competion in the NFL and on the biggest stage. He (and the niners...but CK is a huge part of the equation) have beat the Patriots, Falcons, Packers, Bears and the Saints. Dalton played his worst game of the season when his team needed him the most. He struggled mightily down the stetch. people talk about CK having a great O-line...what about Dalton and the defense? What do you think Andy's W-L record would've been over the home stretch without the D bailing him and the offense out?

-Poise- CK keeps his eyes up field under pressure. He also has total command of that offense. Seems calm in the face of adversity.

-Accuracy- I'll probably catch some flack for this as accuracy is supposed to be Dalton's strength...but I see AD as an inaccurate passer (epspecially 15+ yeards down the field). To me, its a highly dissapointing aspect of his game. CK has been deadly accurate. In the NFL, throws have to be to a precise spot. There are no wide open WR's typically. The window is small. CK has been threading the needle. He puts the ball exactly where it needs to go. he also is accurate 20+ yards down the field. Dalton really struggles when his WR's are well covered. During the home stetch, he struggled to hit the tight window that he needed to.

So while you say it's 'debatable' I think it's pretty clear cut.
You're just not taking into account how good that 49ers TEAM is though. Oline is dominant, their coach is a stud, receivers and run game out the ying yang. Dude is set up from the get up, there's no denying that. Dalton is on an offense that is full of holes and has done an excellent job of performing well in far less than ideal conditions. CK has done an excellent job of performing well in ideal conditions. He's a baller, but the gap between him and Dalton isn't as great as you think. But there is a gap, I grade CK better, just not as much better as you seem to.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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The offense was anemic down the stetch and that's when Dalton seemed to really regress with the mental aspect of the game. All in all I think Dalton is pretty good. I'm not sure if he has the physical tools to go to the next level. We can talk about 'intangibles' till we're blue in the face but at some point physical talent needs to be entered in to the equation. I do think Dalton is a serviceable QB that you can win with...I hope he progresses this year. I hope that he can throw the ball with velocity and accuracy down the field. I hope that he can start seeing the field better and going through his progressions. We'll see. I think Year 3 will be a critical year for him.
The guys around him had a ton to do with his drop in numbers. Lotta dropped balls, plus when you play better defenses, it's harder for Dalton to pull a no run game/one good receiver/civ in the middle of the Oline offense up by the bootstraps. Not too many QBs, if any, can do that.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

This thread keeps going...yet I don't think anyone who was Pro-Dalton or Pro-Kaepernick has changed sides.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:51 PM
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The guys around him had a ton to do with his drop in numbers. Lotta dropped balls, plus when you play better defenses, it's harder for Dalton to pull a no run game/one good receiver/civ in the middle of the Oline offense up by the bootstraps. Not too many QBs, if any, can do that.
One can...


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Old 01-22-2013, 04:54 PM
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He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.
To point in my post - Of course as more QBs run it, more injuries will occur outside of the pocket. That's just numbers. But a majority of the QBs in the league can run when they need to, and they will not get injured on those runs. When those plays become more prevalent, the same will occur. A QB will be coached up to avoid injury at all costs. Sliding or running OOB. The thing is, as I said before, the QBs only have to give the threat of running to create successful offense. He doesn't even have to run much

The offense was as a bad as I claimed when the protection wasn't great. It was shut down by every team in the league when there was pressure around. The problem though, was the pressure wasn't as bad as people think it was because Dalton created more problems. Again, he ran into sacks, and created pressure by running towards it when he thought something else was going on. Our protection on the interior wasn't that bad. Faine and Cook were not good, but everyone else was playing very well, especially considering we had a quick read offense (That even Gruden admitted Dalton did poorly on).
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:57 PM
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You're just not taking into account how good that 49ers TEAM is though. Oline is dominant, their coach is a stud, receivers and run game out the ying yang. Dude is set up from the get up, there's no denying that. Dalton is on an offense that is full of holes and has done an excellent job of performing well in far less than ideal conditions. CK has done an excellent job of performing well in ideal conditions. He's a baller, but the gap between him and Dalton isn't as great as you think. But there is a gap, I grade CK better, just not as much better as you seem to.
The niners are a great team, no doubt. I guess I don't see the Bengals as deficient as many do. The drops are maddening but every team has those. I think the O-line is well above average. I think the talent catching the ball is very good (not many teams have a game changer like AJ...plus Gresham and Hawkins can make plays. Jones actually won a lot on the field as the #2. He's capable). It's not like we have the Falcons personnel on offense but who does? The bengals talent at RB is below average but that is easily remedied. IMO the offense down the stretch played under it's talent level. I put some of that on Dalton but Gruden deserves the lion's share. From my perspective, I see Dalton as a middle of the road QB. On paper he looks good...but when I watch his game I just see too many limitations. Some of it fixable, but I think the issues of being able to thread the needle 15+ yards down the field with some consistency is a talent issue.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:13 PM
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Last year, members here said stats don't matter and it is all about winning games in regards to Cam vs Dalton. And who got to the promised land, the playoffs.

Now all of a sudden we are looking at numbers and NOT winning games???


Now all of a sudden we have to wait two years for some when comparing Dalton and Colin????

Nobody talked about Carolina's defense or OL and NO ONE complained about Carolina's HC or OC!!!!!!


I expect some spin from someone responding. But just remember what the Calvary were saying last year winning > stats.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:19 PM
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You don't find that impressive? Geez...How about leading his team back against the Falcons in what is considered to be one of the toughest places to play on the biggest of stages? Not impressed? He also tore up Chicago, considered to be one of the best defenses in the NFL. Does that count as being impressive by your insanely lofty standards?
Oh so it was Kaepernick out there making the Falcon's offense stagger to a dead halt. I forgot that he not only plays QB, but every single defensive spot at the same time as well.

As for beating Chicago, let's not act like Chicago's defense hadn't fallen off by the time San Fran handed them that beating. By that standard, Dalton is a boss too because he picked apart the Giant's defense - considered to be one of the best in the NFL. Just because something is assumed to be something doesn't mean that it is.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:38 PM
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D.Boon D.Boon is offline
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
Oh so it was Kaepernick out there making the Falcon's offense stagger to a dead halt. I forgot that he not only plays QB, but every single defensive spot at the same time as well.

As for beating Chicago, let's not act like Chicago's defense hadn't fallen off by the time San Fran handed them that beating. By that standard, Dalton is a boss too because he picked apart the Giant's defense - considered to be one of the best in the NFL. Just because something is assumed to be something doesn't mean that it is.
Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick
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