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  #576  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick
Nope, none of them.

Not when we have Ginger Jesus!!!!


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  #577  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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You don't find that impressive? Geez...How about leading his team back against the Falcons in what is considered to be one of the toughest places to play on the biggest of stages? Not impressed? He also tore up Chicago, considered to be one of the best defenses in the NFL. Does that count as being impressive by your insanely lofty standards?
I think it is impressive but I also think that Andy Dalton could destroy those defenses as well with his arm not his legs.
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  #578  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick
No, I don't think it's impressive that he's done what Alex Smith has already done (had it not been for a muffed punt LAST YEAR). Did you drool all over Brady when he took over the Patriots back in 2000 and won a Super Bowl? It's amazing what a good team can do for a QB stepping in because of injury.

A: It's not like he's their only weapon. This isn't Brady and the offense made up of no-name receivers and running backs; it's an established team with an established offense and an established defense. It's like playing euchre and getting dealt the Right, the Left, the Ace, the King, and the Queen of trump.
B: So San Fran's defense took down some good QB's whose supporting defenses are less than admirable, but that makes Kaepernick look amazing? How'd he do against a damn good team with a damn good defense? Oh right - the Seahawks made him look stupid. Seattle is easily the hardest pro-stadium to play in, but if I recall correctly, the Bengals (led by Andy Dalton) went in there and won, but your boy-toy Kaepernick looked like a kicked puppy. Weird.
C: Again, I must've missed the part where Kaepernick was out there shutting down Matt Ryan and the Falcon's defense.

As far as trading Dalton for any of those QB's straight up, probably not. Dalton is established as making something from nothing - the only other QB on that list to do that is RG3, and to be fair they did have Alfred Morris taking a lot of the heat off of him.

A quarterback doesn't make a team - very few QB's could succeed where Dalton has succeeded and very few wouldn't have had the same struggles. Kaepernick is not one of those very few QB's.
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  #579  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick
I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!
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  #580  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

lol WHAT A HOMER!! DALTON IS GOOD BUT CANT EVEN HOLD THE JOCK OF THOSE LISTED.

i LOVE MY BENGALS BUT DO NOT CHECK IN COMMON SENSE WHEN i LOG IN. get a grip
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  #581  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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One can...


No one trumpets the awesomeness of Peyton more than me. Best regular season QB ever.

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To point in my post - Of course as more QBs run it, more injuries will occur outside of the pocket. That's just numbers. But a majority of the QBs in the league can run when they need to, and they will not get injured on those runs. When those plays become more prevalent, the same will occur. A QB will be coached up to avoid injury at all costs. Sliding or running OOB. The thing is, as I said before, the QBs only have to give the threat of running to create successful offense. He doesn't even have to run much

The offense was as a bad as I claimed when the protection wasn't great. It was shut down by every team in the league when there was pressure around. The problem though, was the pressure wasn't as bad as people think it was because Dalton created more problems. Again, he ran into sacks, and created pressure by running towards it when he thought something else was going on. Our protection on the interior wasn't that bad. Faine and Cook were not good, but everyone else was playing very well, especially considering we had a quick read offense (That even Gruden admitted Dalton did poorly on).
He'll get better, I ain't sayin' he don't do anything bad, but he does a lot more good. We have yet to see him at his best cuz the personnel around him is not sufficient to facilitate his optimal performance yet. That, plus he'll get better, he's shown me enough to be confident in that.

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The niners are a great team, no doubt. I guess I don't see the Bengals as deficient as many do. The drops are maddening but every team has those. I think the O-line is well above average. I think the talent catching the ball is very good (not many teams have a game changer like AJ...plus Gresham and Hawkins can make plays. Jones actually won a lot on the field as the #2. He's capable). It's not like we have the Falcons personnel on offense but who does? The bengals talent at RB is below average but that is easily remedied. IMO the offense down the stretch played under it's talent level. I put some of that on Dalton but Gruden deserves the lion's share. From my perspective, I see Dalton as a middle of the road QB. On paper he looks good...but when I watch his game I just see too many limitations. Some of it fixable, but I think the issues of being able to thread the needle 15+ yards down the field with some consistency is a talent issue.
You're more glass half full on the offensive unit than I am but I'm sure you'd agree that he's shown enough ability for us to be very confident that with added experience and a better supporting cast, his numbers will improve as will the team's record vs. the better defenses in the league.

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I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!
I don't think anyone is trying to say Dalton looked better this year than RG3 or Wilson or some of those other guys mentioned. What I'm saying personally is that with improvements in his game that I think he is capable of and will make plus plugging some pretty critical holes on the offensive unit in general, that perception will change. What you're gonna see is what some perceive as a HUGE talent gap between Dalton and those others, it will greatly decrease and in some instances may even disappear completely dependent upon the make up of the team each individual QB is working with.

I've said it before, you can sit around yearning for the next Peyton, but even Peyton, without proper support, comes up short in the playoffs against more balanced teams, time and time again. Best regular season QB of all time imo....but the teams around have not been good enough to finish.

So you can look at Kaep with a completely stacked 9ers team or Wilson with a similar situation in Seattle and wish we had that QB instead of the one we have if you want, and I'm not saying it's crazy to do so, I grade both those ahead of Dalton right now. All I'm saying is Dalton is good enough, if we upgrade some holes, that his numbers and this team's prospects will dramatically improve. A lot more so than some people are thinking, hopefully, the personnel needed to make it a reality happens and I can say "I told you so".

You gotta have the TEAM, cuz if you don't, even epically elite QBs will not be able to save you 9 times outta ten. Just ask Peyton Manning.
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  #582  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!
And it's a good thing you're not a NFL GM because all you'd look it is a player's highlights and think they're the next great thing.

It goes beyond an individual's numbers and is often told by the opposing team's numbers more than the individual's. As I said earlier, out dueling Aaron Rodgers is pretty easy when your defense can shut him down every now and then and his defense couldn't stop a division-2 pee-wee team.
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  #583  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post

He'll get better, I ain't sayin' he don't do anything bad, but he does a lot more good. We have yet to see him at his best cuz the personnel around him is not sufficient to facilitate his optimal performance yet. That, plus he'll get better, he's shown me enough to be confident in that.
I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.
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  #584  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:51 PM
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I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.
Because replacing a quarterback and rebuilding an entire offense is so easy.
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  #585  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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And it's a good thing you're not a NFL GM because all you'd look it is a player's highlights and think they're the next great thing.
No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.

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It goes beyond an individual's numbers and is often told by the opposing team's numbers more than the individual's. As I said earlier, out dueling Aaron Rodgers is pretty easy when your defense can shut him down every now and then and his defense couldn't stop a division-2 pee-wee team.
And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.
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  #586  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:04 PM
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I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.
He improved his passer rating some 8 points from rookie year to this and at no point has he looked as bad as say Joe Flacco did in his first couple of years and now look where the Ravens are......Cuz their defenders got healthy at the right time, cuz they have Ray Rice, Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin, Pitta.

Denver went your route, got THE GUY of all guys to get....And where are they now?....And they even had a pretty balanced team this year, but they were down to their third string RB at the wrong time I guess.

Not Kaep, not Wilson, not RG3 would have taken this Bengals team to the SB, so the "elevation" of everyone around them that you're taking for granted, it just don't work that way. Almost without fail, the same QBs who get trumpeted as being more of a "difference maker" play for the better team to begin with.

This Bengals offense is holding Dalton back more than the other way around. And these other dudes you think could just walk into the same situation and run roughshod with the same pieces around them, it ain't happenin'. We've seen it over and over, that's just not how it works.

Also, there's probably more luck involved in identifying a good starting QB than most other positions. Seahawks drafted Wilson in the third to back up Flynn and ended up with a gem. Then you got can't miss prospects like Leaf that happen at the very top of the draft who flop when everyone thought they couldn't miss. Dalton has proven more than good enough to be worth building a team around cuz he's good enough that it would take a really good player to come in and take his job, so his presence alone increases the likliehood that you're blowing a pick if you try and take a flyer on some 2nd or 3rd rounder when you could have just upgraded other spots on the team that are clearly in way more need.

I can't believe you're almost ready to tell Dalton to kick rocks cuz you're watching these QBs with stacked rosters making them look like a million bucks without even wanting to see Dalton perform with the same sort of balanced team working in his favor to see what he does with it.
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  #587  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.

And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.
It may not be the team around him, but to dismiss the 49er's success as being related to just Colin Kaepernick is just ridiculous. As has been said countless times (but Kaepernick supporters don't want to acknowledge), the 49ers would've been in the Super Bowl already without Kaepernick had Kyle Williams not developed a lethal case of fumbleitis, so the groundwork for success was already there. Nearly any QB at that point could've taken over behind center and had success, so let's not act like Kaepernick is elevating the team.

Strangely enough, the Packers and Patriots were both shells of their former selves this year, as were the Saints - you know, the 3 teams that always seem to be pretty dominating. I guess it's to be expected - the Packers offense was riddled with injuries to key players, the Patriots' clock is nearing midnight, and the Saints had all sorts of issues stemming from the bounty issues. And stop acting like Kaepernick made Brady look stupid - Brady was down 28 points in the 3rd quarter and still almost lead the comeback, and that's without a running game. Despite what you may believe, being down 28 points and being down 10 points are completely different beasts, so Kaepernick coming back against Atlanta had way more to do with the 49er's defense stepping up than the offense suddenly coming to life.
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  #588  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:31 PM
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No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.



And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.
Aaron Rodgers is filthy good. What else do the Packers have, he's their whole team man.

Kaep didn't out duel Rodgers. The niners beat the Packers, that's all. You're not saying Kaep is better than Rodgers right?

Well all a lot of us are saying is that Kaep ain't as much better than Dalton as some seem to think, all things considered. They could clone the guy, give him to the Bengals, and the Bengals still weren't going anywhere this year, offense is full of holes.

There simply isn't enough merit to the argument that Dalton isn't good enough to go forward as this teams starting QB. We could absolutely win a title with him. Very rare to find the QB who do it on their own anyway. Even Rodgers and Manning got good play from their defenses when they managed to win it all.....And they fail right along with the rest of their team when the team doesn't play well overall.

Dalton is gonna look a lot better when we get a RB and more receivers. We're one dimensional with one weapon and that reflects on the QB more than anyone else.
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  #589  
Old 01-22-2013, 09:50 PM
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I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.
What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.
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  #590  
Old 01-22-2013, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

This thread acts like the qb is 100% responsible for a teams wins or losses.

The 49ers actually had a better record and made it to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith as the qb. Dalton inherited a 4 win team.
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  #591  
Old 01-22-2013, 10:00 PM
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What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.
Right on ! And if CK keeps running like he has been he's not going to make it more than a couple seasons.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:03 PM
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This thread acts like the qb is 100% responsible for a teams wins or losses.

The 49ers actually had a better record and made it to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith as the qb. Dalton inherited a 4 win team.
+1 and the two best (Brady/Manning) are at the house!!!
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:29 PM
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I think it is impressive but I also think that Andy Dalton could destroy those defenses as well with his arm not his legs.
Dalton has shown nothing of the sort. He has a losing record against teams with winning records. The fact is the guy is nothing better than an average NFL QB. He doesn't have the arm, the pocket presence, or the moxie, to be elite. Boomer Esiason did. Kenny Anderson did. Palmer did until he got Von Oelhoeffen'd. Kaepernick might have it, but all things being equal, he has a lot more of it than Andy. When has Andy came out on top against a top team? CK has more big games against big teams in the last month than Dalton has in two years.

The Bengals D is not far off from SF's. The O-line is similar, although not quite as good. The WR's are better, the TE's/RB's not as good. Dalton has had chances to play well when it mattered, and has largely disappointed on the big stage. Even in the big win against Pitt, Dalton played poorly.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.
No, you can't do that. You don't know how to grade QBs if you do that.

QB experts know that the way you evaluate QBs is as follows

Step A: See who balls out in a given year's playoffs.

Step B: Proceed to swinging on that QB's bozack

Once you have this technique mastered, then you can call yourself a QB guru.

/sarcasm

Ppl will be surprised how much better Dalton looks with a run game and more than one good receiver, no matter how great that one receiver is, the better defenses have the antidote for that all day. Gotta have more balance.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by bengalfan74 View Post
Right on ! And if CK keeps running like he has been he's not going to make it more than a couple seasons.


Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

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Old 01-22-2013, 10:37 PM
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Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

Grogan, dude who wore the big neck roll? Lulz indeed.

It's as simple as the difference between a pocket QB scrambling and read option guy becoming basically a RB/QB hybrid.

Even a QB scrambling around in the backfield for time and then going to pass gets all the protections of all those added rules, some of them very recently added......When your offense calls for your QB to be a RB by design, the more you do it the greater the odds, and there are no rules to protect them at that point.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

Like Savage said, when your QB is actually a QB/RB by design he's not going to last !

There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.

See RGIII
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Like Savage said, when your QB is actually a QB/RB by design he's not going to last !

There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.

See RGIII

Is that all???




RG3

vs


Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:55 PM
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There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.
You know what's ironic? The same schmoes in the national media who are all over Colin Kaepernick's jock for being a hybrid quarterback - running back are the same jerks who hated on Tim Tebow for being a hybrid quarterback - running back.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:58 PM
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You know what's ironic? The same schmoes in the national media who are all over Colin Kaepernick's jock for being a hybrid quarterback - running back are the same jerks who hated on Tim Tebow for being a hybrid quarterback - running back.
Because Tim Tebow is a terrible player
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