Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

QBs can still get killed, and QB almost never get injured on the run anyways. Most injuries occur from within the pocket in almost every case. A QB who runs gets hit just as much as a QB who has a poor offensive line (Except with less people who weigh 280+ laying on top of you)

I've seen plenty of QBs get hurt outside the pocket, Vick (running QB, can't stay healthy), Trent Green was actually in the act of sliding when Geathers basically ended his career. And like I said, the protections afforded QBs to try and avoid those injuries don't exist outside the pocket......

So as the read option becomes more prevalent, you're going to see it more and more. It's easy when 95% of QBs are typical pocket passers to say that's where the injuries occur. As the read option gains steam, those dudes will go down, not afforded the added protection of the pocket as NFL defenders adjust to the threat and take full advantage of QBs being as exposed as RBs.


Dalton's pocket presence is some of the worst I've ever seen. Very few QBs run into sacks, run away from the pocket unnecessarily, and have no idea where the pressure is coming from like him. I am not exaggerating here. He's had this problem in college and it hasn't improved yet. I can deal with problems by a young QB, but Dalton has barely made any noticeable progress from college to rookie to 2nd year player. Why should we expect him to improve more? I've said I'll give Dalton another year, but after that, I'm going for Bridgewater like no other.

He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

These are all debatable. Mainly because CK is playing with a much better line, and has multiple receivers that get open and don't drop passes.

He also is in the very same pistol offense he ran in college.

Would he be just as "poised" and accurate here in Gruden's system with 3 different centers and 4 different #2 wr's? And no Frank Gore?

Could he account for 31 touchdowns in that situation? Highly debatable.

Right now he's in the perfect situation with a great HC, great line, good receivers, and runs the same system he did in college.

Of course he's "poised" in that sitch.

I don't see how these are debatable.

-CK clearly more athletic than Dalton and posseses better physical gifts. Clear cut winner.

-CK has lead his team to victory agains the highest level of competion in the NFL and on the biggest stage. He (and the niners...but CK is a huge part of the equation) have beat the Patriots, Falcons, Packers, Bears and the Saints. Dalton played his worst game of the season when his team needed him the most. He struggled mightily down the stetch. people talk about CK having a great O-line...what about Dalton and the defense? What do you think Andy's W-L record would've been over the home stretch without the D bailing him and the offense out?

-Poise- CK keeps his eyes up field under pressure. He also has total command of that offense. Seems calm in the face of adversity.

-Accuracy- I'll probably catch some flack for this as accuracy is supposed to be Dalton's strength...but I see AD as an inaccurate passer (epspecially 15+ yeards down the field). To me, its a highly dissapointing aspect of his game. CK has been deadly accurate. In the NFL, throws have to be to a precise spot. There are no wide open WR's typically. The window is small. CK has been threading the needle. He puts the ball exactly where it needs to go. he also is accurate 20+ yards down the field. Dalton really struggles when his WR's are well covered. During the home stetch, he struggled to hit the tight window that he needed to.

So while you say it's 'debatable' I think it's pretty clear cut.

[BengalYankee]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/pos...se-quarterback


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...2374--nfl.html

"With 11:10 left in the first half and the ball on his own 38-yard line, Dalton tried to throw a deep pass to receiver Marvin Jones -- a throw that would have required Jones to beat two Texans defenders and Dalton's pass to split the defenders. It's a pass that perhaps five NFL quarterbacks can make consistently. Dalton's pass, however, was at least five yards short, and it was almost intercepted by Texans cornerback Kareem Jackson."

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.

The offense was anemic down the stetch and that's when Dalton seemed to really regress with the mental aspect of the game. All in all I think Dalton is pretty good. I'm not sure if he has the physical tools to go to the next level. We can talk about 'intangibles' till we're blue in the face but at some point physical talent needs to be entered in to the equation. I do think Dalton is a serviceable QB that you can win with...I hope he progresses this year. I hope that he can throw the ball with velocity and accuracy down the field. I hope that he can start seeing the field better and going through his progressions. We'll see. I think Year 3 will be a critical year for him.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I don't see how these are debatable.

-CK clearly more athletic than Dalton and posseses better physical gifts. Clear cut winner.

-CK has lead his team to victory agains the highest level of competion in the NFL and on the biggest stage. He (and the niners...but CK is a huge part of the equation) have beat the Patriots, Falcons, Packers, Bears and the Saints. Dalton played his worst game of the season when his team needed him the most. He struggled mightily down the stetch. people talk about CK having a great O-line...what about Dalton and the defense? What do you think Andy's W-L record would've been over the home stretch without the D bailing him and the offense out?

-Poise- CK keeps his eyes up field under pressure. He also has total command of that offense. Seems calm in the face of adversity.

-Accuracy- I'll probably catch some flack for this as accuracy is supposed to be Dalton's strength...but I see AD as an inaccurate passer (epspecially 15+ yeards down the field). To me, its a highly dissapointing aspect of his game. CK has been deadly accurate. In the NFL, throws have to be to a precise spot. There are no wide open WR's typically. The window is small. CK has been threading the needle. He puts the ball exactly where it needs to go. he also is accurate 20+ yards down the field. Dalton really struggles when his WR's are well covered. During the home stetch, he struggled to hit the tight window that he needed to.

So while you say it's 'debatable' I think it's pretty clear cut.

You're just not taking into account how good that 49ers TEAM is though. Oline is dominant, their coach is a stud, receivers and run game out the ying yang. Dude is set up from the get up, there's no denying that. Dalton is on an offense that is full of holes and has done an excellent job of performing well in far less than ideal conditions. CK has done an excellent job of performing well in ideal conditions. He's a baller, but the gap between him and Dalton isn't as great as you think. But there is a gap, I grade CK better, just not as much better as you seem to.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

The offense was anemic down the stetch and that's when Dalton seemed to really regress with the mental aspect of the game. All in all I think Dalton is pretty good. I'm not sure if he has the physical tools to go to the next level. We can talk about 'intangibles' till we're blue in the face but at some point physical talent needs to be entered in to the equation. I do think Dalton is a serviceable QB that you can win with...I hope he progresses this year. I hope that he can throw the ball with velocity and accuracy down the field. I hope that he can start seeing the field better and going through his progressions. We'll see. I think Year 3 will be a critical year for him.

The guys around him had a ton to do with his drop in numbers. Lotta dropped balls, plus when you play better defenses, it's harder for Dalton to pull a no run game/one good receiver/civ in the middle of the Oline offense up by the bootstraps. Not too many QBs, if any, can do that.

[THE PISTONS]

This thread keeps going...yet I don't think anyone who was Pro-Dalton or Pro-Kaepernick has changed sides.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

The guys around him had a ton to do with his drop in numbers. Lotta dropped balls, plus when you play better defenses, it's harder for Dalton to pull a no run game/one good receiver/civ in the middle of the Oline offense up by the bootstraps. Not too many QBs, if any, can do that.

One can...

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He has improved in that area and the issue you think is worse than it is, is clearly being exacerbated by the issues on the interior of our OLine/lack of run/lack of good receiver other than AJ. If he was as bad as you claim, the offense would be anemic as opposed to mediocre to below average with him as the starter. It's not all Gruden, who I know you love, the other main component besides AJ and good Tackles that keeps this offense from being completely nil is the fact that Dalton is a pretty good QB.

To point in my post - Of course as more QBs run it, more injuries will occur outside of the pocket. That's just numbers. But a majority of the QBs in the league can run when they need to, and they will not get injured on those runs. When those plays become more prevalent, the same will occur. A QB will be coached up to avoid injury at all costs. Sliding or running OOB. The thing is, as I said before, the QBs only have to give the threat of running to create successful offense. He doesn't even have to run much

The offense was as a bad as I claimed when the protection wasn't great. It was shut down by every team in the league when there was pressure around. The problem though, was the pressure wasn't as bad as people think it was because Dalton created more problems. Again, he ran into sacks, and created pressure by running towards it when he thought something else was going on. Our protection on the interior wasn't that bad. Faine and Cook were not good, but everyone else was playing very well, especially considering we had a quick read offense (That even Gruden admitted Dalton did poorly on).

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

You're just not taking into account how good that 49ers TEAM is though. Oline is dominant, their coach is a stud, receivers and run game out the ying yang. Dude is set up from the get up, there's no denying that. Dalton is on an offense that is full of holes and has done an excellent job of performing well in far less than ideal conditions. CK has done an excellent job of performing well in ideal conditions. He's a baller, but the gap between him and Dalton isn't as great as you think. But there is a gap, I grade CK better, just not as much better as you seem to.

The niners are a great team, no doubt. I guess I don't see the Bengals as deficient as many do. The drops are maddening but every team has those. I think the O-line is well above average. I think the talent catching the ball is very good (not many teams have a game changer like AJ...plus Gresham and Hawkins can make plays. Jones actually won a lot on the field as the #2. He's capable). It's not like we have the Falcons personnel on offense but who does? The bengals talent at RB is below average but that is easily remedied. IMO the offense down the stretch played under it's talent level. I put some of that on Dalton but Gruden deserves the lion's share. From my perspective, I see Dalton as a middle of the road QB. On paper he looks good...but when I watch his game I just see too many limitations. Some of it fixable, but I think the issues of being able to thread the needle 15+ yards down the field with some consistency is a talent issue.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee


Last year, members here said stats don't matter and it is all about winning games in regards to Cam vs Dalton. And who got to the promised land, the playoffs.

Now all of a sudden we are looking at numbers and NOT winning games???

Now all of a sudden we have to wait two years for some when comparing Dalton and Colin????

Nobody talked about Carolina's defense or OL and NO ONE complained about Carolina's HC or OC!!!!!!


I expect some spin from someone responding. But just remember what the Calvary were saying last year winning > stats.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

You don't find that impressive? Geez...How about leading his team back against the Falcons in what is considered to be one of the toughest places to play on the biggest of stages? Not impressed? He also tore up Chicago, considered to be one of the best defenses in the NFL. Does that count as being impressive by your insanely lofty standards?

Oh so it was Kaepernick out there making the Falcon's offense stagger to a dead halt. I forgot that he not only plays QB, but every single defensive spot at the same time as well.

As for beating Chicago, let's not act like Chicago's defense hadn't fallen off by the time San Fran handed them that beating. By that standard, Dalton is a boss too because he picked apart the Giant's defense - considered to be one of the best in the NFL. Just because something is assumed to be something doesn't mean that it is.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

Oh so it was Kaepernick out there making the Falcon's offense stagger to a dead halt. I forgot that he not only plays QB, but every single defensive spot at the same time as well.

As for beating Chicago, let's not act like Chicago's defense hadn't fallen off by the time San Fran handed them that beating. By that standard, Dalton is a boss too because he picked apart the Giant's defense - considered to be one of the best in the NFL. Just because something is assumed to be something doesn't mean that it is.

Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick

Nope, none of them.

Not when we have Ginger Jesus!!!!

[J24]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

You don't find that impressive? Geez...How about leading his team back against the Falcons in what is considered to be one of the toughest places to play on the biggest of stages? Not impressed? He also tore up Chicago, considered to be one of the best defenses in the NFL. Does that count as being impressive by your insanely lofty standards?

I think it is impressive but I also think that Andy Dalton could destroy those defenses as well with his arm not his legs.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick

No, I don't think it's impressive that he's done what Alex Smith has already done (had it not been for a muffed punt LAST YEAR). Did you drool all over Brady when he took over the Patriots back in 2000 and won a Super Bowl? It's amazing what a good team can do for a QB stepping in because of injury.

A: It's not like he's their only weapon. This isn't Brady and the offense made up of no-name receivers and running backs; it's an established team with an established offense and an established defense. It's like playing euchre and getting dealt the Right, the Left, the Ace, the King, and the Queen of trump.
B: So San Fran's defense took down some good QB's whose supporting defenses are less than admirable, but that makes Kaepernick look amazing? How'd he do against a damn good team with a damn good defense? Oh right - the Seahawks made him look stupid. Seattle is easily the hardest pro-stadium to play in, but if I recall correctly, the Bengals (led by Andy Dalton) went in there and won, but your boy-toy Kaepernick looked like a kicked puppy. Weird.
C: Again, I must've missed the part where Kaepernick was out there shutting down Matt Ryan and the Falcon's defense.

As far as trading Dalton for any of those QB's straight up, probably not. Dalton is established as making something from nothing - the only other QB on that list to do that is RG3, and to be fair they did have Alfred Morris taking a lot of the heat off of him.

A quarterback doesn't make a team - very few QB's could succeed where Dalton has succeeded and very few wouldn't have had the same struggles. Kaepernick is not one of those very few QB's.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Good lord. You don't think it's impressive that a guy 8 games or so in has done the follwing:

A. Lead his team to the Super Bowl
B. Outperformed several of the elite QB's in head to head matchups (i.e. Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Ryan).
C. Lead his team to a comeback victory in the NFC championship game in a hostile environment.

What would impress you? Water into wine?

Just curious (I want to see how far off your rocker you are). I will list some young QB's. In fantasy land, if given the opportuntiy, would you trade Dalton straight up for any (or all) of the following:

Andrew Luck
RGIII
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaeperick

I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!

[twlssn03]

lol WHAT A HOMER!! DALTON IS GOOD BUT CANT EVEN HOLD THE JOCK OF THOSE LISTED.

i LOVE MY BENGALS BUT DO NOT CHECK IN COMMON SENSE WHEN i LOG IN. get a grip

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

One can...

No one trumpets the awesomeness of Peyton more than me. Best regular season QB ever.

Originally Posted by eoxyod

To point in my post - Of course as more QBs run it, more injuries will occur outside of the pocket. That's just numbers. But a majority of the QBs in the league can run when they need to, and they will not get injured on those runs. When those plays become more prevalent, the same will occur. A QB will be coached up to avoid injury at all costs. Sliding or running OOB. The thing is, as I said before, the QBs only have to give the threat of running to create successful offense. He doesn't even have to run much

The offense was as a bad as I claimed when the protection wasn't great. It was shut down by every team in the league when there was pressure around. The problem though, was the pressure wasn't as bad as people think it was because Dalton created more problems. Again, he ran into sacks, and created pressure by running towards it when he thought something else was going on. Our protection on the interior wasn't that bad. Faine and Cook were not good, but everyone else was playing very well, especially considering we had a quick read offense (That even Gruden admitted Dalton did poorly on).

He'll get better, I ain't sayin' he don't do anything bad, but he does a lot more good. We have yet to see him at his best cuz the personnel around him is not sufficient to facilitate his optimal performance yet. That, plus he'll get better, he's shown me enough to be confident in that.

Originally Posted by D.Boon

The niners are a great team, no doubt. I guess I don't see the Bengals as deficient as many do. The drops are maddening but every team has those. I think the O-line is well above average. I think the talent catching the ball is very good (not many teams have a game changer like AJ...plus Gresham and Hawkins can make plays. Jones actually won a lot on the field as the #2. He's capable). It's not like we have the Falcons personnel on offense but who does? The bengals talent at RB is below average but that is easily remedied. IMO the offense down the stretch played under it's talent level. I put some of that on Dalton but Gruden deserves the lion's share. From my perspective, I see Dalton as a middle of the road QB. On paper he looks good...but when I watch his game I just see too many limitations. Some of it fixable, but I think the issues of being able to thread the needle 15+ yards down the field with some consistency is a talent issue.

You're more glass half full on the offensive unit than I am but I'm sure you'd agree that he's shown enough ability for us to be very confident that with added experience and a better supporting cast, his numbers will improve as will the team's record vs. the better defenses in the league.

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!

I don't think anyone is trying to say Dalton looked better this year than RG3 or Wilson or some of those other guys mentioned. What I'm saying personally is that with improvements in his game that I think he is capable of and will make plus plugging some pretty critical holes on the offensive unit in general, that perception will change. What you're gonna see is what some perceive as a HUGE talent gap between Dalton and those others, it will greatly decrease and in some instances may even disappear completely dependent upon the make up of the team each individual QB is working with.

I've said it before, you can sit around yearning for the next Peyton, but even Peyton, without proper support, comes up short in the playoffs against more balanced teams, time and time again. Best regular season QB of all time imo....but the teams around have not been good enough to finish.

So you can look at Kaep with a completely stacked 9ers team or Wilson with a similar situation in Seattle and wish we had that QB instead of the one we have if you want, and I'm not saying it's crazy to do so, I grade both those ahead of Dalton right now. All I'm saying is Dalton is good enough, if we upgrade some holes, that his numbers and this team's prospects will dramatically improve. A lot more so than some people are thinking, hopefully, the personnel needed to make it a reality happens and I can say "I told you so".

You gotta have the TEAM, cuz if you don't, even epically elite QBs will not be able to save you 9 times outta ten. Just ask Peyton Manning.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I'm completely with you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. There seem to just be some people who insist you can't make any judgments about QBs when they're playing on different teams. Good thing those people aren't NFL GMs, because I guess if they ever had to draft a QB they'd just put all the prospects' names in a hat and draw one out since in their minds they'd have no way of determining whether a QB on team A is better than one on team B!

And it's a good thing you're not a NFL GM because all you'd look it is a player's highlights and think they're the next great thing.

It goes beyond an individual's numbers and is often told by the opposing team's numbers more than the individual's. As I said earlier, out dueling Aaron Rodgers is pretty easy when your defense can shut him down every now and then and his defense couldn't stop a division-2 pee-wee team.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He'll get better, I ain't sayin' he don't do anything bad, but he does a lot more good. We have yet to see him at his best cuz the personnel around him is not sufficient to facilitate his optimal performance yet. That, plus he'll get better, he's shown me enough to be confident in that.

I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.

Because replacing a quarterback and rebuilding an entire offense is so easy.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

And it's a good thing you're not a NFL GM because all you'd look it is a player's highlights and think they're the next great thing.

No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

It goes beyond an individual's numbers and is often told by the opposing team's numbers more than the individual's. As I said earlier, out dueling Aaron Rodgers is pretty easy when your defense can shut him down every now and then and his defense couldn't stop a division-2 pee-wee team.

And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.

He improved his passer rating some 8 points from rookie year to this and at no point has he looked as bad as say Joe Flacco did in his first couple of years and now look where the Ravens are......Cuz their defenders got healthy at the right time, cuz they have Ray Rice, Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin, Pitta.

Denver went your route, got THE GUY of all guys to get....And where are they now?....And they even had a pretty balanced team this year, but they were down to their third string RB at the wrong time I guess.

Not Kaep, not Wilson, not RG3 would have taken this Bengals team to the SB, so the "elevation" of everyone around them that you're taking for granted, it just don't work that way. Almost without fail, the same QBs who get trumpeted as being more of a "difference maker" play for the better team to begin with.

This Bengals offense is holding Dalton back more than the other way around. And these other dudes you think could just walk into the same situation and run roughshod with the same pieces around them, it ain't happenin'. We've seen it over and over, that's just not how it works.

Also, there's probably more luck involved in identifying a good starting QB than most other positions. Seahawks drafted Wilson in the third to back up Flynn and ended up with a gem. Then you got can't miss prospects like Leaf that happen at the very top of the draft who flop when everyone thought they couldn't miss. Dalton has proven more than good enough to be worth building a team around cuz he's good enough that it would take a really good player to come in and take his job, so his presence alone increases the likliehood that you're blowing a pick if you try and take a flyer on some 2nd or 3rd rounder when you could have just upgraded other spots on the team that are clearly in way more need.

I can't believe you're almost ready to tell Dalton to kick rocks cuz you're watching these QBs with stacked rosters making them look like a million bucks without even wanting to see Dalton perform with the same sort of balanced team working in his favor to see what he does with it.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.

And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.

It may not be the team around him, but to dismiss the 49er's success as being related to just Colin Kaepernick is just ridiculous. As has been said countless times (but Kaepernick supporters don't want to acknowledge), the 49ers would've been in the Super Bowl already without Kaepernick had Kyle Williams not developed a lethal case of fumbleitis, so the groundwork for success was already there. Nearly any QB at that point could've taken over behind center and had success, so let's not act like Kaepernick is elevating the team.

Strangely enough, the Packers and Patriots were both shells of their former selves this year, as were the Saints - you know, the 3 teams that always seem to be pretty dominating. I guess it's to be expected - the Packers offense was riddled with injuries to key players, the Patriots' clock is nearing midnight, and the Saints had all sorts of issues stemming from the bounty issues. And stop acting like Kaepernick made Brady look stupid - Brady was down 28 points in the 3rd quarter and still almost lead the comeback, and that's without a running game. Despite what you may believe, being down 28 points and being down 10 points are completely different beasts, so Kaepernick coming back against Atlanta had way more to do with the 49er's defense stepping up than the offense suddenly coming to life.