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  #51  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
Then there really is no point. Many are pointing to an exception as the rule when the fact remains (which keeps being ignored) that this team does a VERY good job of retaining their core talent.
You just stated an opinion. You cannot argue with facts.

How many players that were drafted by the Bengals are on their second (or greater) contract with the Bengals?

Secondly, how does that compare to other teams in the league?






Hint: not very well.
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  #52  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Once again you take something out of context. I was replying to someone else's post about how fans will react if we let Atkins go.

Quite frankly if the spin about not wanting to have 2 high paid players at one position is true then do you think we will have 3 on the defensive line?

Plus we have 4 players on our roster that were drafted by us from 2007 or before. Not exactly a glorious history of keeping our own. Spikes, Joseph, Smith, Steinbach, Houshmandzadeh (who was arguably our best wr at the time), Kevin Walter (people forget about him) Brooks, and Maddieu Williams are some of the guys we didn't keep. Then people tout how losing is OK because we are so young. I wonder why we are young?
Oooops. Here is the answer.

We are not good at creating / keeping a quality core. Is that changing...we will see.

They better start spitting out some contracts before the start of FA.
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by GodFather07 View Post
It still hurts that we lost Joseph in FA, we could have resigned him during his last year with us before anyone else had a chance…so I hope they learn their lesson and resign the key players we need this offseason and not go the route of drafting another player to "coach up" only to let another team reap the benefits after their 2 year learning curve.

Resign Johnson, Smith and lets get Atkins locked up in a multi year deal. Theres so much cap space money that there's no excuse why this can't happen.

Lets get next season off on the right foot and keep the players we need and build up depth in this team in order to take us deep into the payoffs.
Yes, I agree.......I didn't mind losing The Dynamic Duo of TO and Ocho Show and I would have driven them to the airport. .....Palmer choose to refuse to play, and we have done much better with Dalton than the Raiders have with the Great Carsonie....Plus the draft picks, the gift that keeps on giving.......Who I said at the time that we had to keep was JJ....Joseph and Hall were back to back year 1st round draft pick CBs and were just becoming veterans. We should have kept the two top pick CBs together. Joseph and Hall would easily have gave us the best set of CBs in the NFL, and in the two Houston play-off games, he could't have helped beat us but would have helped us beat Houston.

Last year I said we had to keep Nelson the most.....and his interception against Steelers to set up the win putting us in the play-offs was huge, plus his play all year. Without Nelson, we don't make the play-offs in 2012.

and this year I say the man we can't lose is.......MJ.......Why in the heck would anybody want to change the defensive line. It is finally good for a change. It is in fact our best part of the team. ....If you want play-off wins.....Then no way in heck do you take MJ away from Geno, Peko and Dunlap.......Johnson MUST be kept, even if we have to franchise tag him......

So over the last few years ....Joseph who we lost, Nelson who we kept, and now MJ.....Lets learn from losing Joseph and keep MJ.

and next year......No way in the world do you let Geno Atkins go.....Although that would fit with the bumbling, bungling history of this franchise and players going such as Bill Bergey and Lemar Parrish up to Joseph........if, IF the Bengals are smart, they will sign Geno Atkins to a very long term contract this year and not let our best DT in Bengals history go free agency at seasons end. ( I saw all of Mike Reid and Big Daddys years here and they were never as good as Geno is right now....OK , Krumrie was as good or better before the Super Bowl leg injury. I've never seen a nose tackle on any team make sideline to sideline tackles like MLB Butkis the way Krumrie did........You don't get many Krumries or Genos, Geno MUST be kept )....Geno combines amazing weight lifting strength and being able to overpower blockers, with speed to get at the QB, and great tackling skills. Geno is just an amazing one of a kind athlete...RESIGN HIM !!!!!....Like Krumrie, these type players can get you to the Super Bowl, if that is indeed your goal. Now if your goal is to go cheap, then don't expect more than the 1990s Bengals in years to come.

If this team keeps MJ and locks Geno into a long term contract this off season...anything else they do is icing on the cake.
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  #54  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by Lolli View Post
You just stated an opinion. You cannot argue with facts.

How many players that were drafted by the Bengals are on their second (or greater) contract with the Bengals?

Secondly, how does that compare to other teams in the league?






Hint: not very well.
Post the stats please. I am guessing that we do as good a job as any other team. I see tons of big name free agents every year. They have to be coming from somewhere.

The Bengals have basically lost two valuable free agents in the last decade..Justin Smith and Joseph. How could that eb so much worse than every other team when the market is full of big name free agents every year.
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  #55  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post

Meanwhile Spikes, Smith, Walter, Joseph, Brooks, Maddieu Williams, Houshmandzadeh, Stenbach, were let go.

I wonder why we are perpetually one of the youngest teams in the NFL?
Spikes did not want to be here.

Walter was a back up.

Brooks was a bust.

Madieu, Steinbach, and TJ were overpaid. If we had given them the same contracts they got from other teams then fans here would be saying that Mike Brown made a mistake giving them that kind of money.
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:17 PM
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bengals Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by THE PISTONS View Post
Plus they spent more on his replacements who were lower quality. Clements, Allen, Kirkpatrick
Hah, exactly. That's the thing that always cracked me up. Nate Clements 2yrs/$10.5m.. Jason Allen 2yrs/$8.2m... Terence Newman 1yr/$825k... Dre Kirkpatrick 17th overall pick + 4yr/$8.6m. And counting, because the Bengals are going to have to do something about the CB position again this offseason.

All so the Bengals didn't have to pay JJo 5yr/$48.7m... or like $9.7m a year.

The draft pick(s) and FA money they've had to spend to fill the hole he left with talent less than his has already make the whole situation entirely ridiculous. I mean heck, Clements and Allen alone combine to average $9.5m a year for their contracts, and would you trade JJo for Clements/Allen/$0.2m? Of course you wouldn't. Then you add in the 17th overall pick that could have been used on Doug Martin or somebody else useful... and the overall improved CB play.
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  #57  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
Hah, exactly. That's the thing that always cracked me up. Nate Clements 2yrs/$10.5m.. Jason Allen 2yrs/$8.2m... Terence Newman 1yr/$825k... Dre Kirkpatrick 17th overall pick + 4yr/$8.6m. And counting, because the Bengals are going to have to do something about the CB position again this offseason.

All so the Bengals didn't have to pay JJo 5yr/$48.7m... or like $9.7m a year.

The draft pick(s) and FA money they've had to spend to fill the hole he left with talent less than his has already make the whole situation entirely ridiculous. I mean heck, Clements and Allen alone combine to average $9.5m a year for their contracts, and would you trade JJo for Clements/Allen/$0.2m? Of course you wouldn't. Then you add in the 17th overall pick that could have been used on Doug Martin or somebody else useful... and the overall improved CB play.
Yes, that was an expensive way for Mike Brown to cover his rear end...He went cheap on JJ, but then paid more bringing in all these other 1st round pick CBs and even used last years top pick on a CB.....Had we had JJ and Hall, we wouldn't have had to bring in a whos who of older 1st round pick CBs plus use another top pick on another CB, and something Mike Brown or nobody figured on happening.....JJ couldn't play against us in the last two play-off games with Houston with JJ playing great such as knocking the winning TD out of AJ Greens hands. ......and as you say, keeping Joseph and Hall together would have been cheaper ....( and we would have had the best CBs in the NFL )......Like the old song says, It's cheaper to keep her. .....Mike Brown went cheap and ended up spending more money, and if it wasn't for the losses to Houston in the play-offs, I would laugh at that.

Lesson should be learned, but can you teach an old dog new tricks...we will see.
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  #58  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike View Post
it's a business. The right amount of money and he would have stayed
No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. You and all like you need to stop saying this because it is patently UNTRUE.

I have stated over and over, so maybe one day people will listen. I know I've replied specifically about this before, but people can keep believing in the JJoe fantasy, but I'll state it again so maybe one day people will come out of thier fantasy world.

I live in Houston. When JJoe signed here he did extensive interviews with the local ESPN Radio affiliate. In multiple interviews over the weeks after FA, JJoe stated clearly, plainly and specifically, that the Bengals made him a good and equal offer, but it was TIME TO MOVE ON. When asked to elaborate, he would not. He just kept saying that it was time to move on. In multiple interviews. Over multiple weeks.

We made him a good offer. He didn't want to be here. He moved on. By his own words. He was never coming back. DEAL WITH IT.
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  #59  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by fredtoast View Post
Post the stats please. I am guessing that we do as good a job as any other team. I see tons of big name free agents every year. They have to be coming from somewhere.

The Bengals have basically lost two valuable free agents in the last decade..Justin Smith and Joseph. How could that eb so much worse than every other team when the market is full of big name free agents every year.
I mostly agree Fred, what I mean is we don't do as bad a job of keeping our own as some would lead you to believe.

However overall if I had to bet, I'd bet our retention isn't as good as a lot of teams and that's simply because people haven't wanted to stay. By and Large that is, for most of the last two decades.
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  #60  
Old 01-22-2013, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by Stewy View Post
No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. No he wouldn't. You and all like you need to stop saying this because it is patently UNTRUE.

I have stated over and over, so maybe one day people will listen. I know I've replied specifically about this before, but people can keep believing in the JJoe fantasy, but I'll state it again so maybe one day people will come out of thier fantasy world.

I live in Houston. When JJoe signed here he did extensive interviews with the local ESPN Radio affiliate. In multiple interviews over the weeks after FA, JJoe stated clearly, plainly and specifically, that the Bengals made him a good and equal offer, but it was TIME TO MOVE ON. When asked to elaborate, he would not. He just kept saying that it was time to move on. In multiple interviews. Over multiple weeks.

We made him a good offer. He didn't want to be here. He moved on. By his own words. He was never coming back. DEAL WITH IT.
I'm sure it had a lot to do with Carson and that whole ordeal. Had the FO done the smart thing and made him the same offer during the season, before Carson's trade demand, we likely wouldn't be looking at a hole on the opposite side of the field where JJoe used to be.

How could he go from being excited about getting a long-term deal done, thus staying in Cinci for another 5-6 seasons, then magically not want to be here anymore? Front Office follies; that's how.

Oh, and to the person saying JJoe had hands of stone and didn't really try here:
58 starts
220 solo tackles
76 passes defensed
14 interceptions(3 returned for TDs)
228 interception return yards
2FFs

That's a per season average of about:
61 solo tackles, 21pdef, 4ints(1 p6), 63 int return yards, 1FF

Clearly, he wasn't trying...

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  #61  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by fredtoast View Post
Spikes did not want to be here.

Walter was a back up.

Brooks was a bust.

Madieu, Steinbach, and TJ were overpaid. If we had given them the same contracts they got from other teams then fans here would be saying that Mike Brown made a mistake giving them that kind of money.
I would have rather kept Houshmandzadeh than have to add Coles/Bryant/TO. From a cost perspective Houshmandzadeh probably costed less too.
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  #62  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
Hah, exactly. That's the thing that always cracked me up. Nate Clements 2yrs/$10.5m.. Jason Allen 2yrs/$8.2m... Terence Newman 1yr/$825k... Dre Kirkpatrick 17th overall pick + 4yr/$8.6m. And counting, because the Bengals are going to have to do something about the CB position again this offseason.

All so the Bengals didn't have to pay JJo 5yr/$48.7m... or like $9.7m a year.

The draft pick(s) and FA money they've had to spend to fill the hole he left with talent less than his has already make the whole situation entirely ridiculous. I mean heck, Clements and Allen alone combine to average $9.5m a year for their contracts, and would you trade JJo for Clements/Allen/$0.2m? Of course you wouldn't. Then you add in the 17th overall pick that could have been used on Doug Martin or somebody else useful... and the overall improved CB play.
The bolded is the part that most people don't consider. When you lose Player A and replace them with a draft pick, the opportunity cost is you lose upgrading another area of the team.
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  #63  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Yes, that was an expensive way for Mike Brown to cover his rear end...He went cheap on JJ, but then paid more bringing in all these other 1st round pick CBs and even used last years top pick on a CB.....Had we had JJ and Hall, we wouldn't have had to bring in a whos who of older 1st round pick CBs plus use another top pick on another CB, and something Mike Brown or nobody figured on happening.....JJ couldn't play against us in the last two play-off games with Houston with JJ playing great such as knocking the winning TD out of AJ Greens hands. ......and as you say, keeping Joseph and Hall together would have been cheaper ....( and we would have had the best CBs in the NFL )......Like the old song says, It's cheaper to keep her. .....Mike Brown went cheap and ended up spending more money, and if it wasn't for the losses to Houston in the play-offs, I would laugh at that.

Lesson should be learned, but can you teach an old dog new tricks...we will see.
An interesting thing that I want to point out is that extending Joseph was probably the best option. Once you let players hit free agency and the bidding war starts, there is no advantage. In the NBA, you can offer your players more money. In the NFL, there is none.
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  #64  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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An interesting thing that I want to point out is that extending Joseph was probably the best option. Once you let players hit free agency and the bidding war starts, there is no advantage. In the NBA, you can offer your players more money. In the NFL, there is none.
Read my post above. he was offered an extension. He didn't take it. He went out to Free Agency and got an offer. We gave him an equal one.


He wanted to leave.

He left.

The money didn't matter.

Same with TJ.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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I would have rather kept Houshmandzadeh than have to add Coles/Bryant/TO. From a cost perspective Houshmandzadeh probably costed less too.
TJ Housh: 5yr/$40million, $15million guaranteed.

Bryant: 4yr/$28million, $8million guaranteed.
Coles: 4yr/$28million, ? on how much guaranteed, but I'm going to assume at least $3million.
Owens: 1yr/$2million

Total: At least $13million spent on WRs that stayed for a total of 2 seasons.
In those 2 seasons, the combined stats were:
115rec
1497yards
14tds

That's 3WRs combining for average production from a solid #2, but we could have saved a ton of headache just keeping Housh for not much more money.
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  #66  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Originally Posted by Stewy View Post
Read my post above. he was offered an extension. He didn't take it. He went out to Free Agency and got an offer. We gave him an equal one.


He wanted to leave.

He left.

The money didn't matter.

Same with TJ.
A year or so before he was a free agent there were stories about him being willing to sign an extension. Plus franchise tag him.

What if Andre Smith and MJ want to leave?
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  #67  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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TJ Housh: 5yr/$40million, $15million guaranteed.

Bryant: 4yr/$28million, $8million guaranteed.
Coles: 4yr/$28million, ? on how much guaranteed, but I'm going to assume at least $3million.
Owens: 1yr/$2million

Total: At least $13million spent on WRs that stayed for a total of 2 seasons.
In those 2 seasons, the combined stats were:
115rec
1497yards
14tds

That's 3WRs combining for average production from a solid #2, but we could have saved a ton of headache just keeping Housh for not much more money.
Yep...seems like a pattern.
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  #68  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Isn't there a saing about beating a dead horse? Anyhow, many teams lose key players year after year, and still manage to perform at a high level. The steelers did it forever under bill cowher, who I still think is one of the best coaches ever (please bengal gods forgive me for I know not what I say). They haven't faired so well under Tomlin, as his drafting has been mediocre at best. But the saying is "Next Man Up". I do tend to agree we should have kept JJo instead of Hall, but at the time JJo had been often injured and was demanding a huge salary that just can't be paid. We made a decision in keeping hall, because a #1 corner should always have safety help over the top, and Hall is a sound technician who is very cerebral and takes great angles, as well as has much more fluid hips and way better hands (5 interceptions that year I believe?) Anyhow, for us to worry about it now is a moot point, he is gone and we still managed to have a top NFL defense without him. Would be have been ELITE with him, yes, but we were close and 8 million cheaper, which for Mike Brown is a huge win! :)
You make no sense Tomlin doesn't draft players and neither did Cowher.


Their General Manger Kevin Colbert does all the drafting and his right hand man Omar Khan does all the signing of players. It is the job of the coach to develop the drafted players, not draft them nor scout them.


Why do people have misconceptions on who does the drafting and the scouting for the Steelers???


http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...rview-thursday


Don't confuse the Bengals organization with other organizations that don't have the same person do everything like Marvin.

P.S. Your man Cowher was a coach for 15 years and he won one Championship. Give me a freaking break. Tomlin has won a Championship in two years.
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  #69  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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You make no sense Tomlin doesn't draft players and neither did Cowher.


Their General Manger Kevin Colbert does all the drafting and his right hand man Omar Khan does all the signing of players. It is the job of the coach to develop the drafted players, not draft them nor scout them.


Why do people have misconceptions on who does the drafting and the scouting for the Steelers???


http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...rview-thursday


Don't confuse the Bengals organization with other organizations that don't have the same person do everything like Marvin.
People assume the Bengals dysfunction where the coaches scout and have a major part in drafting is the norm.

The Steelers last draft is looking bad so far. 2 players with legal issues. The 1st Round pick injured...
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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People assume the Bengals dysfunction where the coaches scout and have a major part in drafting is the norm.

The Steelers last draft is looking bad so far. 2 players with legal issues. The 1st Round pick injured...

I agree but that is on Kevin Colbert. It is the GM that got rod of Chris Rainey and it is the GM that would/could get rid of Tomlin.

It was announced today that the owner of the Jets and Ryan did not want Tebow. Which is the reason why the Jets fired GM Mike Tannenbaum because it was he who forced Tebow on the owner. Not Rex, who kept his job, but the GM. It's pure stupid for Bengal fans to hail Cowher all great drafter when everyone knows it is the Great Kevin Colbert.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/jetsbl...#axzz2Il85aVsy


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jet...medium=twitter
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  #71  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:56 PM
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I agree but that is on Kevin Colbert. It is the GM that got rod of Chris Rainey and it is the GM that would/could get rid of Tomlin.

It was announced today that the owner of the Jets and Ryan did not want Tebow. Which is the reason why the Jets fired GM Mike Tannenbaum because it was he who forced Tebow on the owner. Not Rex, who kept his job, but the GM. It's pure stupid for Bengal fans to hail Cowher all great drafter when everyone knows it is the Great Kevin Colbert.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/jetsbl...#axzz2Il85aVsy


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/jet...medium=twitter
Yep. Now Cowher helped develop guys...which is something we lack sometimes as guys like Gresham get worse. He had recally good hands as a rookie.
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  #72  
Old 01-22-2013, 09:22 PM
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Yep. Now Cowher helped develop guys...which is something we lack sometimes as guys like Gresham get worse. He had recally good hands as a rookie.

Yes. A coach's job is to help develop players as well as oversee what the hell a DC or OC is cooking.

The HC says I want a 3-4 or ar a 4-3 defense and the DC works on it and when finished the HC gives the kiss of approval. But Hell no, does the regular HC of the NFL scout and draft his players.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

Joseph wasn't very good this year.... Leon had a better year than Joseph coming back from a torn achilles.

Fact is I think it was best in the long run to let him walk because we were in a rebuilding stage with our offense and were probably a few seasons away from super bowl contention so by the time our offense was to the apex our corners would both be 30-31 and regressing not to mention eating a big chunk cap room.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Read my post above. he was offered an extension. He didn't take it. He went out to Free Agency and got an offer. We gave him an equal one.


He wanted to leave.

He left.

The money didn't matter.

Same with TJ.
Exactly can we please drop the JJoe thing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

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Plus he was injured alot in his time here. The Bengals decided they could only keep one between Joseph and Hall and decided to back the player who played in every game.
Then Hall got injured and our #1 pick corner spent the whole year in traction from practice. Oof!
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