Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

No, I wouldn't just look at the highlights ... I'd look at the entire performance. Honestly, you people downplaying Kaep's performances and saying it's all just about the team around him are the ones not watching the games.



And yet, strangely enough, not a lot of QBs have in fact out-dueled Aaron Rodgers over the last few years. All evidence is it's really not an easy thing to do at all, and I'm sure the 49ers aren't the only good team the Packers have played. And, it's also true that no QB had out-dueled Tom Brady in New England in December for 10 years before Kaepernick did so this year, and I'm sure some of those teams the Pats played the last 10 years were good teams too.

Aaron Rodgers is filthy good. What else do the Packers have, he's their whole team man.

Kaep didn't out duel Rodgers. The niners beat the Packers, that's all. You're not saying Kaep is better than Rodgers right?

Well all a lot of us are saying is that Kaep ain't as much better than Dalton as some seem to think, all things considered. They could clone the guy, give him to the Bengals, and the Bengals still weren't going anywhere this year, offense is full of holes.

There simply isn't enough merit to the argument that Dalton isn't good enough to go forward as this teams starting QB. We could absolutely win a title with him. Very rare to find the QB who do it on their own anyway. Even Rodgers and Manning got good play from their defenses when they managed to win it all.....And they fail right along with the rest of their team when the team doesn't play well overall.

Dalton is gonna look a lot better when we get a RB and more receivers. We're one dimensional with one weapon and that reflects on the QB more than anyone else.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I'd rather we work on getting one piece to elevate the team to a great level than waiting for the luck of getting 3 or 4 pieces around Dalton that all work well. I'm saying, looking back at what I saw in college, he hasn't made noticeable progression like other successful QBs do.

What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.

[THE PISTONS]

This thread acts like the qb is 100% responsible for a teams wins or losses.

The 49ers actually had a better record and made it to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith as the qb. Dalton inherited a 4 win team.

[bengalfan74]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.

Right on ! And if CK keeps running like he has been he's not going to make it more than a couple seasons.

[jack1953]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

This thread acts like the qb is 100% responsible for a teams wins or losses.

The 49ers actually had a better record and made it to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith as the qb. Dalton inherited a 4 win team.

+1 and the two best (Brady/Manning) are at the house!!!

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by J24

I think it is impressive but I also think that Andy Dalton could destroy those defenses as well with his arm not his legs.

Dalton has shown nothing of the sort. He has a losing record against teams with winning records. The fact is the guy is nothing better than an average NFL QB. He doesn't have the arm, the pocket presence, or the moxie, to be elite. Boomer Esiason did. Kenny Anderson did. Palmer did until he got Von Oelhoeffen'd. Kaepernick might have it, but all things being equal, he has a lot more of it than Andy. When has Andy came out on top against a top team? CK has more big games against big teams in the last month than Dalton has in two years.

The Bengals D is not far off from SF's. The O-line is similar, although not quite as good. The WR's are better, the TE's/RB's not as good. Dalton has had chances to play well when it mattered, and has largely disappointed on the big stage. Even in the big win against Pitt, Dalton played poorly.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.

No, you can't do that. You don't know how to grade QBs if you do that.

QB experts know that the way you evaluate QBs is as follows

Step A: See who balls out in a given year's playoffs.

Step B: Proceed to swinging on that QB's bozack

Once you have this technique mastered, then you can call yourself a QB guru.

/sarcasm

Ppl will be surprised how much better Dalton looks with a run game and more than one good receiver, no matter how great that one receiver is, the better defenses have the antidote for that all day. Gotta have more balance.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by bengalfan74

Right on ! And if CK keeps running like he has been he's not going to make it more than a couple seasons.

Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

Grogan, dude who wore the big neck roll? Lulz indeed.

It's as simple as the difference between a pocket QB scrambling and read option guy becoming basically a RB/QB hybrid.

Even a QB scrambling around in the backfield for time and then going to pass gets all the protections of all those added rules, some of them very recently added......When your offense calls for your QB to be a RB by design, the more you do it the greater the odds, and there are no rules to protect them at that point.

[bengalfan74]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

Like Savage said, when your QB is actually a QB/RB by design he's not going to last !

There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.

See RGIII

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by bengalfan74

Like Savage said, when your QB is actually a QB/RB by design he's not going to last !

There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.

See RGIII

Is that all???




RG3

vs


Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Originally Posted by bengalfan74

There's a big difference in a scrambler/slider and a hybrid QB/RB. And in the NFL it doesn't work long term.

You know what's ironic? The same schmoes in the national media who are all over Colin Kaepernick's jock for being a hybrid quarterback - running back are the same jerks who hated on Tim Tebow for being a hybrid quarterback - running back.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by Fan_in_Kettering

You know what's ironic? The same schmoes in the national media who are all over Colin Kaepernick's jock for being a hybrid quarterback - running back are the same jerks who hated on Tim Tebow for being a hybrid quarterback - running back.

Because Tim Tebow is a terrible player

[BengalYankee]

[BengalYankee]

What does Richmond Virginia have in common?


Russel Wilson and Fran Tarkenton born and bred there.

Two QB's who can/could run.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Because Tim Tebow is a terrible player

He's a good ball player, he just can't throw worth krap. Not on an NFL level.

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Is that all???




RG3

vs


Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

You can throw up all the gifs you want, it's a legit concern and you know it.

So you're saying if the Bengals were incorporating more and more read option into the play book it wouldn't concern you, especially gradkowski as our backup?

You're not that foolish.

Do you think NFL defenses will not adjust to this trend? Do you think that if teams aren't careful with how much they expose their QB to RB like punishment they may end up regretting it? No matter how much you preach for the guy to slide, if designed QB runs are that big of a part of your offense, then how much sliding is too much? How long before it just becomes the "read and slide for no gain option" instead of the game changing scheme some teams have managed to make of it?

Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

You post that like some simple bootleg action is a recent development.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.

Bernard Pollard is just waiting to lay some wood on Colin Kaepernick. The read-option is a hot commodity at the college level but in the NFL the game is too fast and a running quarterback is going to suffer a career-ending injury on national television. Kaepernick is one hard hit away from becoming Michael Vick.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He's a good ball player, he just can't throw worth krap. Not on an NFL level.



You can throw up all the gifs you want, it's a legit concern and you know it.

So you're saying if the Bengals were incorporating more and more read option into the play book it wouldn't concern you, especially gradkowski as our backup?

You're not that foolish.

Do you think NFL defenses will not adjust to this trend? Do you think that if teams aren't careful with how much they expose their QB to RB like punishment they may end up regretting it? No matter how much you preach for the guy to slide, if designed QB runs are that big of a part of your offense, then how much sliding is too much? How long before it just becomes the "read and slide for no gain option" instead of the game changing scheme some teams have managed to make of it?

Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.

People were saying similar things about Fran Tarkenton when he played. People were just used to the traditional pocket passer. Players like Fran Tarkenton, Bobby Douglass, Roger "the Dodger" Staubach, etc revolutionized the game where we had QB's that could run.

I repeat nay sayers were spelling the doom for Fran and company, but I guess things never change.

Look ma, no gifs. :-)

From an expert, sorry Savage I think Fran is more of an expert then you.

http://www.twincities.com/portal/spo...ss&_loopback=1

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...

- Young missed 24 games in his last 5 seasons.

- Cunningham had major injury problems throughout his career. Missed 30 of his last 64 games as an Eagle (when he was still running a lot).

- McNabb missed 28 games in 11 seasons with the Eagles.

- Tarkenton only averaged 38 rushing attempts per season. Kaep just rushed 50 times in 8 games, which would obviously project to 100 times for a full season.

- Staubach averaged only 37 rushing attempts, with a high of 55.

- Grogan missed a ton of games. I'm not sure if it's due to injury or maybe he got benched. From '75-80, he did average 54 rushing attempts, but he also missed 5 games during this span. This might be your best example.

- Douglass played 1 full season in his 11 year career.

I will also add...

Mike Vick- The best running QB of all-time has missed at least 24 games in 9 seasons as a starter.

RGIII- Shredded his knee in his rookie season. If he were able to stay healthy, he could be Mike Vick crossed with Tom Brady. Problem is, he's already having trouble staying healthy.

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

...and look how wide open his receiver was. Andy rolled out all the time, and I don't think I ever saw a WR that open.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

- Young missed 24 games in his last 5 seasons.

- Cunningham had major injury problems throughout his career. Missed 30 of his last 64 games as an Eagle (when he was still running a lot).

- McNabb missed 28 games in 11 seasons with the Eagles.

- Tarkenton only averaged 38 rushing attempts per season. Kaep just rushed 50 times in 8 games, which would obviously project to 100 times for a full season.

- Staubach averaged only 37 rushing attempts, with a high of 55.

- Grogan missed a ton of games. I'm not sure if it's due to injury or maybe he got benched. From '75-80, he did average 54 rushing attempts, but he also missed 5 games during this span. This might be your best example.

- Douglass played 1 full season in his 11 year career.

I will also add...

Mike Vick- The best running QB of all-time has missed at least 24 games in 9 seasons as a starter.

RGIII- Shredded his knee in his rookie season.

Only one of those quarterbacks ever won a Super Bowl.

[BengalYankee]

For all you complainers about running QB's.

I bring you the following. You don't have to read or write, just sit back and relax for 5+ minutes. Complainers then, Defenders looking to destroy Tarkenton then, that's not football whining then, etc.
Same crap, different year!!!!







Presents ....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmeTo-8aoI

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

People were saying similar things about Fran Tarkenton when he played. People were just used to the traditional pocket passer. Players like Fran Tarkenton, Bobby Douglass, Roger "the Dodger" Staubach, etc revolutionized the game where we had QB's that could run.

I repeat nay sayers were spelling the doom for Fran and company, but I guess things never change.

Look ma, no gifs. :-)

From an expert, sorry Savage I think Fran is more of an expert then you.

http://www.twincities.com/portal/spo...ss&_loopback=1

Fran scrambled, I repeat, scrambled, against far inferior defenders for one.

For two, for all I know Fran is the dumbest former jock this side of Emmit Smith.'

Save me the "he played so his opinion is more valid than yours" logic.

Sorry, but I'll take common sense over Fran Tarkenton. You run the QB in this read option, ya better proceed carefully as there is absolutely an increased risk of injury, there's no denying that dude. Especially with all the protections afforded pocket passers now that weren't afforded dudes from back in the day. Plus you're still ignoing that them dude were scramblers, not QB/RB hybrids like some of these guys are becoming.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

For all you complainers about running QB's.

I bring you the following. You don't have to read or write, just sit back and relax for 5+ minutes. Complainers then, Defenders looking to destroy Tarkenton then, that's not football whining then, etc.
Same crap, different year!!!!







Presents ....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmeTo-8aoI

Dude, Fran Tarkenton has squadoosh to do with the discussion at hand tbph.

Next you're prolly gonna tell me how Elgin Baylor made all those "new fangle slammy dunks" waaayyy before Micheal Jordan right?

Lulz.

[gardner30]

The intriguing thing for me about Kaepernick is that he is a threat to run for a TD at anytime.

Andy is a good scrambler and can get decent yards but he isn't going to outrun many and won't juke a man in the open field.

I'm not going to compare the 2 because neither would be as good in the offenses each run so you couldn't just switch them.

My main beef with Andy is he freaks out in the pocket sometimes.

He needs to learn to move while not dropping his eyes.

IMO, until he can do that he won't take the next step as a QB and it will take more pieces around him for the offense to be successful.

I'm not down on him and he has achieved alot in 2 years but if his development levels out the rest of the team will need to be much stronger to succeed.