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  #601  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:06 PM
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  #602  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

What does Richmond Virginia have in common?


Russel Wilson and Fran Tarkenton born and bred there.

Two QB's who can/could run.


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  #603  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by eoxyod View Post
Because Tim Tebow is a terrible player
He's a good ball player, he just can't throw worth krap. Not on an NFL level.

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Originally Posted by BengalYankee View Post
Is that all???




RG3

vs


Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...
You can throw up all the gifs you want, it's a legit concern and you know it.

So you're saying if the Bengals were incorporating more and more read option into the play book it wouldn't concern you, especially gradkowski as our backup?

You're not that foolish.

Do you think NFL defenses will not adjust to this trend? Do you think that if teams aren't careful with how much they expose their QB to RB like punishment they may end up regretting it? No matter how much you preach for the guy to slide, if designed QB runs are that big of a part of your offense, then how much sliding is too much? How long before it just becomes the "read and slide for no gain option" instead of the game changing scheme some teams have managed to make of it?

Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.
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  #604  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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You post that like some simple bootleg action is a recent development.
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  #605  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.
Bernard Pollard is just waiting to lay some wood on Colin Kaepernick. The read-option is a hot commodity at the college level but in the NFL the game is too fast and a running quarterback is going to suffer a career-ending injury on national television. Kaepernick is one hard hit away from becoming Michael Vick.
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  #606  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
He's a good ball player, he just can't throw worth krap. Not on an NFL level.



You can throw up all the gifs you want, it's a legit concern and you know it.

So you're saying if the Bengals were incorporating more and more read option into the play book it wouldn't concern you, especially gradkowski as our backup?

You're not that foolish.

Do you think NFL defenses will not adjust to this trend? Do you think that if teams aren't careful with how much they expose their QB to RB like punishment they may end up regretting it? No matter how much you preach for the guy to slide, if designed QB runs are that big of a part of your offense, then how much sliding is too much? How long before it just becomes the "read and slide for no gain option" instead of the game changing scheme some teams have managed to make of it?

Defenses will adjust and QBs will get hurt, I promise you. Just like even with all the new rules to protect them, the defenses adjust and QBs still get hurt in the pocket too......With that being the case, how can you laugh off the obvious point that using your QB as part of your run game on a regular basis is risky, probably gonna end badly for some teams.

People were saying similar things about Fran Tarkenton when he played. People were just used to the traditional pocket passer. Players like Fran Tarkenton, Bobby Douglass, Roger "the Dodger" Staubach, etc revolutionized the game where we had QB's that could run.

I repeat nay sayers were spelling the doom for Fran and company, but I guess things never change.

Look ma, no gifs. :-)

From an expert, sorry Savage I think Fran is more of an expert then you.

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  #607  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by BengalYankee View Post
Like Tarkenton, Staubauch, Elway, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Cunningham, McNabb and Steve Young, guys like that only played a couple of seasons...


- Young missed 24 games in his last 5 seasons.

- Cunningham had major injury problems throughout his career. Missed 30 of his last 64 games as an Eagle (when he was still running a lot).

- McNabb missed 28 games in 11 seasons with the Eagles.

- Tarkenton only averaged 38 rushing attempts per season. Kaep just rushed 50 times in 8 games, which would obviously project to 100 times for a full season.

- Staubach averaged only 37 rushing attempts, with a high of 55.

- Grogan missed a ton of games. I'm not sure if it's due to injury or maybe he got benched. From '75-80, he did average 54 rushing attempts, but he also missed 5 games during this span. This might be your best example.

- Douglass played 1 full season in his 11 year career.

I will also add...

Mike Vick- The best running QB of all-time has missed at least 24 games in 9 seasons as a starter.

RGIII- Shredded his knee in his rookie season. If he were able to stay healthy, he could be Mike Vick crossed with Tom Brady. Problem is, he's already having trouble staying healthy.


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Originally Posted by BengalYankee View Post
...and look how wide open his receiver was. Andy rolled out all the time, and I don't think I ever saw a WR that open.
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If you think Dalton will average 25 passes per game, put your money where your mouth is. I'll even make it easy on you.

If Dalton averages over 30 passes per game in 2014, I win. If he averages less than 30, you win. Loser can't post in any Dalton threads for 1 year. You game?
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Yes, log it.

Last edited by Shake n Blake; 01-22-2013 at 11:47 PM.
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  #608  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
- Young missed 24 games in his last 5 seasons.

- Cunningham had major injury problems throughout his career. Missed 30 of his last 64 games as an Eagle (when he was still running a lot).

- McNabb missed 28 games in 11 seasons with the Eagles.

- Tarkenton only averaged 38 rushing attempts per season. Kaep just rushed 50 times in 8 games, which would obviously project to 100 times for a full season.

- Staubach averaged only 37 rushing attempts, with a high of 55.

- Grogan missed a ton of games. I'm not sure if it's due to injury or maybe he got benched. From '75-80, he did average 54 rushing attempts, but he also missed 5 games during this span. This might be your best example.

- Douglass played 1 full season in his 11 year career.

I will also add...

Mike Vick- The best running QB of all-time has missed at least 24 games in 9 seasons as a starter.

RGIII- Shredded his knee in his rookie season.
Only one of those quarterbacks ever won a Super Bowl.
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  #609  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

For all you complainers about running QB's.

I bring you the following. You don't have to read or write, just sit back and relax for 5+ minutes. Complainers then, Defenders looking to destroy Tarkenton then, that's not football whining then, etc.
Same crap, different year!!!!







Presents ....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmeTo-8aoI
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  #610  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by BengalYankee View Post
People were saying similar things about Fran Tarkenton when he played. People were just used to the traditional pocket passer. Players like Fran Tarkenton, Bobby Douglass, Roger "the Dodger" Staubach, etc revolutionized the game where we had QB's that could run.

I repeat nay sayers were spelling the doom for Fran and company, but I guess things never change.

Look ma, no gifs. :-)

From an expert, sorry Savage I think Fran is more of an expert then you.

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Fran scrambled, I repeat, scrambled, against far inferior defenders for one.

For two, for all I know Fran is the dumbest former jock this side of Emmit Smith.'

Save me the "he played so his opinion is more valid than yours" logic.

Sorry, but I'll take common sense over Fran Tarkenton. You run the QB in this read option, ya better proceed carefully as there is absolutely an increased risk of injury, there's no denying that dude. Especially with all the protections afforded pocket passers now that weren't afforded dudes from back in the day. Plus you're still ignoing that them dude were scramblers, not QB/RB hybrids like some of these guys are becoming.
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  #611  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by BengalYankee View Post
For all you complainers about running QB's.

I bring you the following. You don't have to read or write, just sit back and relax for 5+ minutes. Complainers then, Defenders looking to destroy Tarkenton then, that's not football whining then, etc.
Same crap, different year!!!!







Presents ....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmeTo-8aoI
Dude, Fran Tarkenton has squadoosh to do with the discussion at hand tbph.

Next you're prolly gonna tell me how Elgin Baylor made all those "new fangle slammy dunks" waaayyy before Micheal Jordan right?

Lulz.
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  #612  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

The intriguing thing for me about Kaepernick is that he is a threat to run for a TD at anytime.

Andy is a good scrambler and can get decent yards but he isn't going to outrun many and won't juke a man in the open field.

I'm not going to compare the 2 because neither would be as good in the offenses each run so you couldn't just switch them.

My main beef with Andy is he freaks out in the pocket sometimes.

He needs to learn to move while not dropping his eyes.

IMO, until he can do that he won't take the next step as a QB and it will take more pieces around him for the offense to be successful.

I'm not down on him and he has achieved alot in 2 years but if his development levels out the rest of the team will need to be much stronger to succeed.
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  #613  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Dude, Fran Tarkenton has squadoosh to do with the discussion at hand tbph.

Next you're prolly gonna tell me how Elgin Baylor made all those "new fangle slammy dunks" waaayyy before Micheal Jordan right?

Lulz.

I doubt you saw the video, but if you did all the complaints on Fran are similar with what you are saying.

Defenders saying they wanted to crush Fran are what I see members here are saying about Colin.
By the way, why is it mainly here I hear the critisim and not by the nation wide media???
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  #614  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:59 PM
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Why are some members here hoping that Colin gets destroyed?

The guy is in another conference?

Would you like it if fans from the NFC wished Dalton get battered?
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  #615  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Why are some members here hoping that Colin gets destroyed?

The guy is in another conference?

Would you like it if fans from the NFC wished Dalton get battered?

Nobody wants to see Colin Kaepernick hurt. However, many people are pointing out his running style lends itself to injury.
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  #616  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Nobody wants to see Colin Kaepernick hurt. However, many people are pointing out his running style lends itself to injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelist
I think it will be interesting to see how Atlanta plays defense in this game. After Green Bay exercised horrible gap discipline and no control and thus CK ran like nuts I hope the Falcons learn from that.

They need to stay in their lanes and if CK runs out hammer him mercilessly. Make him beat them throwing from inside the pocket. And on a read option the same rules apply - lane discipline and pound the QB. If you recall we did that to RGIII and Shanahan even started moaning about it - later on other teams took the hint and look where RGIII is now.

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  #617  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:53 AM
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I doubt you saw the video, but if you did all the complaints on Fran are similar with what you are saying.

Defenders saying they wanted to crush Fran are what I see members here are saying about Colin.
By the way, why is it mainly here I hear the critisim and not by the nation wide media???
You're taking acknowledging that the niners are stacked as critiques. I said several times the kid is a baller. I just take exception to those who watch a good QB on a stacked team do well and then start talking about canning Dalton. Dalton may not run like CK, but ppl get all giddy over that.

We have no idea how good Dalton can look with a team around even close to the level that team in SF is at right now. He's definitely played well enough for me to wanna see how it would work out with him once we upgrade at some key spots......

People around here act like they already know how it would look.

Did they know what Warner was gonna do in Arizona when he was in NY? Did they know what Steve Young was gonna do in SF when he was in Tampa?

It never ends, people just refuse to ackknowledge how much better or worse the same QB looks based on what's around them.

They just reactively heap praise on whatever QB is hot at the time. And usually the QB that looks the best in the playoffs is also the QB whose team is playing the best around him.

So many factors, so many variables, but inevitably as soon as things go right for a guy and the pieces fall in place...."Hey, the Bengals need a guy like THAT at QB".....
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  #618  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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You're taking acknowledging that the niners are stacked as critiques. I said several times the kid is a baller. I just take exception to those who watch a good QB on a stacked team do well and then start talking about canning Dalton. Dalton may not run like CK, but ppl get all giddy over that.

We have no idea how good Dalton can look with a team around even close to the level that team in SF is at right now. He's definitely played well enough for me to wanna see how it would work out with him once we upgrade at some key spots......

People around here act like they already know how it would look.

Did they know what Warner was gonna do in Arizona when he was in NY? Did they know what Steve Young was gonna do in SF when he was in Tampa?

It never ends, people just refuse to ackknowledge how much better or worse the same QB looks based on what's around them.

They just reactively heap praise on whatever QB is hot at the time. And usually the QB that looks the best in the playoffs is also the QB whose team is playing the best around him.

So many factors, so many variables, but inevitably as soon as things go right for a guy and the pieces fall in place...."Hey, the Bengals need a guy like THAT at QB".....
Dalton and Alex Smith are very similar QBs, so we do have a little idea how it would work.

The 49ers seemed to change a lot of stuff they used to do with Smith at QB.

If the Bengals had Kaepernick I'm sure Gruden would taylor the offense to match his skill set too.

Its what you have to do with QBs that are raw like Kaep, RGIII, Newton and Wilson until they learn to read defenses you have to simplify things and let them see the field.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:25 AM
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Dalton and Alex Smith are very similar QBs, so we do have a little idea how it would work.

The 49ers seemed to change a lot of stuff they used to do with Smith at QB.

If the Bengals had Kaepernick I'm sure Gruden would taylor the offense to match his skill set too.

Its what you have to do with QBs that are raw like Kaep, RGIII, Newton and Wilson until they learn to read defenses you have to simplify things and let them see the field.
It's not about the system the coach may or may not choose to run. It's about talent level of personnel and how effective said coach is at getting that talent to produce.

Russel Wilson is not a QB I would describe as raw btw, nor is RG3 for that matter but that's besides the point.

Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. No run game, one good receiver, and even he had the dropsies this year. He'd be sitting at home just like Dalton is.
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  #620  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:32 AM
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It's not about the system the coach may or may not choose to run. It's about talent level of personnel and how effective said coach is at getting that talent to produce.

Russel Wilson is not a QB I would describe as raw btw, nor is RG3 for that matter but that's besides the point.

Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. No run game, one good receiver, and even he had the dropsies this year. He'd be sitting at home just like Dalton is.
Wilson is farther along than say Newton or RGIII at being a "Real" NFL QB, but not as far along as Luck IMO.

I agree that the Bengals with Kaepernick probably would not be playing.

I like Kaep more as an athlete than QB, who knows if he will develop into something more.

He has made some pretty throws though.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:36 AM
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Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. .
You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?

Last edited by Toast Jones; 01-23-2013 at 01:39 AM.
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  #622  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:44 AM
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You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?
Yea so, what's that got to do with anything?

Appearances change when you give guys supremely better coaching and talent to work with, period. That's a fact homey.

CK doing squadoosh in the playoffs like Dalton may be conjecture, but it's a very strong possibility, really, it's very probable if you're being reasonable.

How 'bout Newton out there with Harbaugh and CK in Carolina, what happens ya think?
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:45 AM
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You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?
Don't argue with him or he will have to explain it over again only to find its what he was saying all along to.........oh nevermind
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  #624  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:46 AM
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Wilson is farther along than say Newton or RGIII at being a "Real" NFL QB, but not as far along as Luck IMO.

I agree that the Bengals with Kaepernick probably would not be playing.

I like Kaep more as an athlete than QB, who knows if he will develop into something more.

He has made some pretty throws though.
They're all NFL caliber starters. I'd take Wilson over any of them right now, including Luck.
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Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak started in 1991 and now its over. The Bengals streak of not winning a playoff game started in 91 too. So now I'm just waiting on the other shoe to drop.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:52 AM
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savagehenry54 savagehenry54 is offline
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
Don't argue with him or he will have to explain it over again only to find its what he was saying all along to.........oh nevermind
What's the matter dude?
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Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak started in 1991 and now its over. The Bengals streak of not winning a playoff game started in 91 too. So now I'm just waiting on the other shoe to drop.
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