Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Dude, Fran Tarkenton has squadoosh to do with the discussion at hand tbph.

Next you're prolly gonna tell me how Elgin Baylor made all those "new fangle slammy dunks" waaayyy before Micheal Jordan right?

Lulz.

I doubt you saw the video, but if you did all the complaints on Fran are similar with what you are saying.

Defenders saying they wanted to crush Fran are what I see members here are saying about Colin.
By the way, why is it mainly here I hear the critisim and not by the nation wide media???

[BengalYankee]

Why are some members here hoping that Colin gets destroyed?

The guy is in another conference?

Would you like it if fans from the NFC wished Dalton get battered?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Why are some members here hoping that Colin gets destroyed?

The guy is in another conference?

Would you like it if fans from the NFC wished Dalton get battered?

Nobody wants to see Colin Kaepernick hurt. However, many people are pointing out his running style lends itself to injury.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Fan_in_Kettering

Nobody wants to see Colin Kaepernick hurt. However, many people are pointing out his running style lends itself to injury.

Originally Posted by Joelist
I think it will be interesting to see how Atlanta plays defense in this game. After Green Bay exercised horrible gap discipline and no control and thus CK ran like nuts I hope the Falcons learn from that.

They need to stay in their lanes and if CK runs out hammer him mercilessly. Make him beat them throwing from inside the pocket. And on a read option the same rules apply - lane discipline and pound the QB. If you recall we did that to RGIII and Shanahan even started moaning about it - later on other teams took the hint and look where RGIII is now.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

I doubt you saw the video, but if you did all the complaints on Fran are similar with what you are saying.

Defenders saying they wanted to crush Fran are what I see members here are saying about Colin.
By the way, why is it mainly here I hear the critisim and not by the nation wide media???

You're taking acknowledging that the niners are stacked as critiques. I said several times the kid is a baller. I just take exception to those who watch a good QB on a stacked team do well and then start talking about canning Dalton. Dalton may not run like CK, but ppl get all giddy over that.

We have no idea how good Dalton can look with a team around even close to the level that team in SF is at right now. He's definitely played well enough for me to wanna see how it would work out with him once we upgrade at some key spots......

People around here act like they already know how it would look.

Did they know what Warner was gonna do in Arizona when he was in NY? Did they know what Steve Young was gonna do in SF when he was in Tampa?

It never ends, people just refuse to ackknowledge how much better or worse the same QB looks based on what's around them.

They just reactively heap praise on whatever QB is hot at the time. And usually the QB that looks the best in the playoffs is also the QB whose team is playing the best around him.

So many factors, so many variables, but inevitably as soon as things go right for a guy and the pieces fall in place...."Hey, the Bengals need a guy like THAT at QB".....

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

You're taking acknowledging that the niners are stacked as critiques. I said several times the kid is a baller. I just take exception to those who watch a good QB on a stacked team do well and then start talking about canning Dalton. Dalton may not run like CK, but ppl get all giddy over that.

We have no idea how good Dalton can look with a team around even close to the level that team in SF is at right now. He's definitely played well enough for me to wanna see how it would work out with him once we upgrade at some key spots......

People around here act like they already know how it would look.

Did they know what Warner was gonna do in Arizona when he was in NY? Did they know what Steve Young was gonna do in SF when he was in Tampa?

It never ends, people just refuse to ackknowledge how much better or worse the same QB looks based on what's around them.

They just reactively heap praise on whatever QB is hot at the time. And usually the QB that looks the best in the playoffs is also the QB whose team is playing the best around him.

So many factors, so many variables, but inevitably as soon as things go right for a guy and the pieces fall in place...."Hey, the Bengals need a guy like THAT at QB".....

Dalton and Alex Smith are very similar QBs, so we do have a little idea how it would work.

The 49ers seemed to change a lot of stuff they used to do with Smith at QB.

If the Bengals had Kaepernick I'm sure Gruden would taylor the offense to match his skill set too.

Its what you have to do with QBs that are raw like Kaep, RGIII, Newton and Wilson until they learn to read defenses you have to simplify things and let them see the field.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Dalton and Alex Smith are very similar QBs, so we do have a little idea how it would work.

The 49ers seemed to change a lot of stuff they used to do with Smith at QB.

If the Bengals had Kaepernick I'm sure Gruden would taylor the offense to match his skill set too.

Its what you have to do with QBs that are raw like Kaep, RGIII, Newton and Wilson until they learn to read defenses you have to simplify things and let them see the field.

It's not about the system the coach may or may not choose to run. It's about talent level of personnel and how effective said coach is at getting that talent to produce.

Russel Wilson is not a QB I would describe as raw btw, nor is RG3 for that matter but that's besides the point.

Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. No run game, one good receiver, and even he had the dropsies this year. He'd be sitting at home just like Dalton is.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

It's not about the system the coach may or may not choose to run. It's about talent level of personnel and how effective said coach is at getting that talent to produce.

Russel Wilson is not a QB I would describe as raw btw, nor is RG3 for that matter but that's besides the point.

Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. No run game, one good receiver, and even he had the dropsies this year. He'd be sitting at home just like Dalton is.

Wilson is farther along than say Newton or RGIII at being a "Real" NFL QB, but not as far along as Luck IMO.

I agree that the Bengals with Kaepernick probably would not be playing.

I like Kaep more as an athlete than QB, who knows if he will develop into something more.

He has made some pretty throws though.

[Toast Jones]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Kaepernick would be sitting at home right now with the rest of the Bengals if we had picked him instead of Dalton. .

You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?

Yea so, what's that got to do with anything?

Appearances change when you give guys supremely better coaching and talent to work with, period. That's a fact homey.

CK doing squadoosh in the playoffs like Dalton may be conjecture, but it's a very strong possibility, really, it's very probable if you're being reasonable.

How 'bout Newton out there with Harbaugh and CK in Carolina, what happens ya think?

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

You don't know that. There is no way to say that as fact.

Let's try looking at it a different way. Say there was another draft, and every team was in the same draft position, and had to take Kaepernick or Dalton as their QB. Which QB do you think would be taken the most? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Kaepernick would win in a landslide.

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


Most people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. No?

Don't argue with him or he will have to explain it over again only to find its what he was saying all along to.........oh nevermind

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Wilson is farther along than say Newton or RGIII at being a "Real" NFL QB, but not as far along as Luck IMO.

I agree that the Bengals with Kaepernick probably would not be playing.

I like Kaep more as an athlete than QB, who knows if he will develop into something more.

He has made some pretty throws though.

They're all NFL caliber starters. I'd take Wilson over any of them right now, including Luck.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Don't argue with him or he will have to explain it over again only to find its what he was saying all along to.........oh nevermind

What's the matter dude?

[Toast Jones]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

How 'bout Newton out there with Harbaugh and CK in Carolina, what happens ya think?

I think Newton would do well in SF. He is of a very similar skillset to CK.

I'll try this again, but most people would have Dalton ranked behind those two. Coaches, "experts", commentators, casual fans, die hard fans. Almost everyone is going to take Kaepernick right now. Not too many people would be taking Dalton to build their team over CK.

You can keep trumping up SF's offense, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid has ouplayed him recently. He looks better. A whole lot better.

I guess you're the only one that has it right though. Dalton is equal or better than CK. CK is only good because of his surroundings, even though they've had offense that's ranked in the bottom 3rd the last 3 years.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

What's the matter dude?

What do you mean?

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Newton's better than Dalton too. I think those two (Newton and CK) are somewhat similar from an overall talent standpoint, therefore their records would be similar if they flip flopped. Who knows, SF may be better with Newton. If Dalton went to San Fran, I'd have to guess that their offense wouldn't be nearly as good as it is right now with Kaepernick.

I'll try this again, but most people would have Dalton ranked behind those two. Coaches, "experts", commentators, casual fans, die hard fans. Almost everyone is take Kaepernick. Not too many people would be taking Dalton to build their team over CK.

You can keep trumping up SF's offense, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid has ouplayed him recently. He looks better. A whole lot better.

Newtons a better athlete than Dalton but, IMO, Dalton is the better QB.

Newton struggled pretty bad in some stretches this season when teams started making him throw the football.

[Toast Jones]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Newtons a better athlete than Dalton but, IMO, Dalton is the better QB.

Newton struggled pretty bad in some stretches this season when teams started making him throw the football.

Newton has no help though. He's got a 5ft 40 year old Steve Smith and that's it. He has a simlar QB rating to Dalton, with way less talent, and he's rushed for over 700 yards each year. He also has TWENTY TWO rushing TD's.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Newton has no help though. He's got a 5ft 40 year old Steve Smith and that's it. He has a simlar QB rating to Dalton, with way less talent, and he's rushed for over 700 yards each year. He also has TWENTY TWO rushing TD's.

I agree.

But you are listing rushing stats to support your argument, athlete.

He isn't quite the passer yet.

I would take Newton over Dalton every time, so would anyone starting a team.

IMO, Its the dynamic factor that Newton has that Dalton will never match.

Newton can make plays Dalton can't due to being a superior athlete i.e running, arm strength.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

I think Newton would do well in SF. He is of a very similar skillset to CK.

I'll try this again, but most people would have Dalton ranked behind those two. Coaches, "experts", commentators, casual fans, die hard fans. Almost everyone is going to take Kaepernick right now. Not too many people would be taking Dalton to build their team over CK.

You can keep trumping up SF's offense, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid has ouplayed him recently. He looks better. A whole lot better.

I guess you're the only one that has it right though. Dalton is equal or better than CK. CK is only good because of his surroundings, even though they've had offense that's ranked in the bottom 3rd the last 3 years.

That's not what I've been saying though. You can go back through this thread and see where I said that I grade CK higher than Dalton now.

I've been debating the idea that we can already see based on what Dalton has done here with the much lesser team what he would be able to accomplish were he to find himself in a situation more similar to what CK is in.

I never said CK doesn't look right now to be better, of course he does. I just don't look at CK this year, or Eli last year, or Rodgers in 2010 or Brees in 2009 and on down the line and go "Welp, it's a wrap, look at that guy, we'll never accomplish what they are with Dalton cuz Dalton will never be as good as that guy"......Heck, maybe he won't, but the jury is still out, and he's shown enough that we should look forward to seeing what happens with him if and when our run game don't stink on ice and we've got some more weapoons other than AJ.

Originally Posted by gardner30

Newtons a better athlete than Dalton but, IMO, Dalton is the better QB.

Newton struggled pretty bad in some stretches this season when teams started making him throw the football.

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Newton has no help though. He's got a 5ft 40 year old Steve Smith and that's it. He has a simlar QB rating to Dalton, with way less talent, and he's rushed for over 700 yards each year. He also has TWENTY TWO rushing TD's.

I can't call it between these two. Newton is more dynamic physically, what can he do with a better team? That remains to be seen with both Dalton and Newton cuz neither one of them have much to work with on offense. People have a lot of respect for that RB combo down there, but it never seems to really bear much fruit....Coaching prolly has something to do with that, plus it always seems like one or both have nagging injuries.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

They're all NFL caliber starters. I'd take Wilson over any of them right now, including Luck.

That's odd coming from someone who is beating the "QB is only as good as the players around him" drum.

Few QBs were asked to do as much as Luck this year.

He threw the ball 627 times!!!!

He was pretty much their offense and the Colts had a middle of the road defense.

Seattle asked Wilson to throw 393 times and he had an "Elite" RB and a near "Elite" Defense.

Who had the harder job?

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Wilson is farther along than say Newton or RGIII at being a "Real" NFL QB, but not as far along as Luck IMO.

I agree that the Bengals with Kaepernick probably would not be playing.

I like Kaep more as an athlete than QB, who knows if he will develop into something more.

He has made some pretty throws though.

Idk about that. RGIII had a 102.4 rating this year. He looked phenominal as a real NFL QB imo.

RGIII > Wilson > Newton > Kaepernick > Dalton > Luck > any other QB from the past 2 drafts.

RGIII and Wilson are neck and neck. I'm obviously not sold on Luck. Dalton could be higher with better pieces.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Idk about that. RGIII had a 102.4 rating this year. He looked phenominal as a real NFL QB imo.

RGIII > Wilson > Newton > Kaepernick > Dalton > Luck > any other QB from the past 2 drafts.

RGIII and Wilson are neck and neck. I'm obviously not sold on Luck. Dalton could be higher with better pieces.

Wasn't RGIII running the "pistol"?

Its a 1 read offense that Shanahan is only doing to simplify things for him.

Shanahan ran his real offense when Kirk Cousins was in there.

I won't argue that he looked phenominal.

He is going to have to learn to read a defense though or the people on here saying he won't last are right.

He can't take shots like that his whole career or he will be another Mike Vick.

Luck needs some help but its too early to know how good any of these young guys will be.

I am positive that Bengal fans are the only people who would take Dalton over Luck lol.

[D.Boon]

[quote=Toast Jones;2788862] Dalton is equal or better than CK. CK is only good because of his surroundings, even though they've had offense that's ranked in the bottom 3rd the last 3 years.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

And fwiw, this elite offense that SF supposedly boats, that he's such a beneficiary of, finished 26th last year. They finished 24th in 2010 and 27th in 2009. Even this year, they finished outside the top 10. The way people talk about all these weapons he has, you'd think he joined the Rams of the "Greatest Show on Turf" days.


moving forward than Dalton. I really don't see how anyone can dispute that he looks to be better right now, and moving forward. The guy has a skill set that that appears to be superior to Dalton's. NoMost people looking at things objectively would say that Kaepernick is going to be the better QB ?

Toast brings up an excellent point backed by data that many seem to be sidestpping. San Fran's offense has ranked near the bottom before CK. I'd be willing to bet (though don't have the time to look it up) that stastically they marginally improved in the games that he played.

So those of you that contend SF has a better offense, how do you explain the niners poor offensive rankings? Same personell except for one, finished 26th v. the soft NFCW in 2011?

[Pezmerga]

[quote=D.Boon;2788894]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Dalton is equal or better than CK. CK is only good because of his surroundings, even though they've had offense that's ranked in the bottom 3rd the last 3 years.[/quote]



Toast brings up an excellent point backed by data that many seem to be sidestpping. San Fran's offense has ranked near the bottom before CK. I'd be willing to bet (though don't have the time to look it up) that stastically they marginally improved in the games that he played.

So those of you that contend SF has a better offense, how do you explain the niners poor offensive rankings? Same personell except for one, finished 26th v. the soft NFCW in 2011?

Because he is better than Alex Smith?

He still has more options on offense than Dalton. Smith did too, he just isn't as good as CK. And yes I do think Dalton is better than Smith as well.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by gardner30

I am positive that Bengal fans are the only people who would take Dalton over Luck lol.

I am positive that Bengal fans are the only people who would take Dalton over Colin lol.