Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Wow ... but OK then. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I don't have any better idea how Kaepernick's career will play out in the long run than anybody else. I certainly respect people who are prepared to make their own judgments and not be influenced by everybody else. I just wanted to make it clear that I was also making my own mind up on this issue ... I can't back off my opinion just because it does coincide with current mainstream conventional opinion.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, I'm just defending Dalton over Kaepernick.

The whole issue is moot anyways, since we'll never know the answers to any of the questions brought up.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Wasn't RGIII running the "pistol"?

Its a 1 read offense that Shanahan is only doing to simplify things for him.

Shanahan ran his real offense when Kirk Cousins was in there.

I won't argue that he looked phenominal.

He is going to have to learn to read a defense though or the people on here saying he won't last are right.

He can't take shots like that his whole career or he will be another Mike Vick.

Luck needs some help but its too early to know how good any of these young guys will be.

I am positive that Bengal fans are the only people who would take Dalton over Luck lol.

Don't you remember the Skins/Bengals game? RGIII alternated between the normal offense and that one read option offense. They didn't use the option stuff until late in the game. He seemed to run both really well. Shanny just alternated to give teams different looks. Sort of like how teams that ran the wildcat didn't do it for entire games. From what I've heard, the 49ers run the pistol almost exclusively with Kaep.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, I'm just defending Dalton over Kaepernick.

The whole issue is moot anyways, since we'll never know the answers to any of the questions brought up.

Absolutely ... and at the time we picked Dalton I thought it was the right pick and would have made the same. And, of course, it still might have been the right pick, time will tell. But, even back then, I just had in the back of my mind that we were passing up on an amazing raw talent in Kaep and right now it's reasonable to wonder if we missed out by taking the safer choice. Hopefully, future events say no.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Absolutely ... and at the time we picked Dalton I thought it was the right pick and would have made the same. And, of course, it still might have been the right pick, time will tell. But, even back then, I just had in the back of my mind that we were passing up on an amazing raw talent in Kaep and right now it's reasonable to wonder if we missed out by taking the safer choice. Hopefully, future events say no.

The problem was, of course, the Bengals couldn't wait on a raw talent to develop - they needed a NFL ready QB then and there and Dalton was easily the most NFL ready of that draft class.

I get how its fun to sit back and wonder 'what if', but it is what it is.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

That's odd coming from someone who is beating the "QB is only as good as the players around him" drum.

Few QBs were asked to do as much as Luck this year.

He threw the ball 627 times!!!!

He was pretty much their offense and the Colts had a middle of the road defense.

Seattle asked Wilson to throw 393 times and he had an "Elite" RB and a near "Elite" Defense.

Who had the harder job?

Yea, that's all true. I just like Wilson a lot. I like his composure, I like his decision making, throws a good ball. Not taking anything from Luck, I just prefer Wilson at this point, probably cuz I've seen more of him, I really haven't watched Luck much but I know he's good.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

What you seem to be talking about here is a Peyton Manning or an Aaron Rodgers. Good luck finding that. You obviously can't be talking about a Colin Kaepernick, because the 49ers already had everything in place. Colin is not elevating the 49ers so much as the 49ers are elevating Kaep.

Why does everyone keep ignoring that the 49ers are a better team and a better offense? Also, why is everyone ignoring that we would not be running Kaep's college offense here? Does anyone see Marvin implementing the pistol offense? I sure don't. Kaep would be throwing it 35 times here just like Andy. With less protection.

I'm not saying that Andy is for sure better than Kaep. I just know that Andy doesn't have here what Kaep has in SF. It would be easier to find pieces to put around Andy than it would be to find an elite QB that elevates an offense. And for the record, I don't see Kaep as that guy. The 49ers were a SB contender with or without him, and we don't know if the Pistol will work beyond this season.

Btw, if we ran a shotgun spread like TCU, I bet Andy would've been much more comfortable and poised. Instead, he learned a legit NFL offense. Basically, I think it's too soon to say if Kaep is better or not.

I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

He's a good ball player, he just can't throw worth krap. Not on an NFL level.

He's terrible

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

They're all NFL caliber starters. I'd take Wilson over any of them right now, including Luck.

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

What it boils down to also is that Harbaugh put Kaepernick in an offense that uses his strengths. It's essentially a college offense and they have a mauling offensive line.

If Kaepernick was on the Bengals, he'd likely be running the same flavor of offense that Dalton is which wouldn't be suited to his strengths.

Is the Bengals offense ideally suited for Dalton? No. It isn't either.

Some teams have visionaries on offense. Some don't.

This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, Dalton has a ton of limitations. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said. When we say we have a WCO, it is meant in terminology, not exact system. Most offenses run short to intermediate timing routes. Unless you have a Bratkowski offense that relied on option routes and very good connection with the QB and target (Extension of Air Coryell). The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

They run the pistol in San Fran, but all of a sudden its simple because RG3 does it?

Dafuq?

Why are all these teams running college offenses right now?

Because they can get these young QBs to perform quicker by making them comfortable in a familiar offense.

An easy, 1 read, see the field, offense that allows these athletic QBs to play while slowly learning to read a defense.

In the past, most rookies sat for a year to learn the Pro game.

If the coaches are smart, and they are, they will slowly transform guys like RGIII, Newton, Kaep into more traditional QBs.

Try to keep up with the times ok?

[Pezmerga]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

He's terrible

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness


This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, Dalton has a ton of limitations. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said. When we say we have a WCO, it is meant in terminology, not exact system. Most offenses run short to intermediate timing routes. Unless you have a Bratkowski offense that relied on option routes and very good connection with the QB and target (Extension of Air Coryell). The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time

Jamarcus Russell is physically better than Dalton. Should we bring him in?
I am joking btw. He is making a comeback apparently. Down to just over 300 lbs! Maybe he could replace Roland.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Don't you remember the Skins/Bengals game? RGIII alternated between the normal offense and that one read option offense. They didn't use the option stuff until late in the game. He seemed to run both really well. Shanny just alternated to give teams different looks. Sort of like how teams that ran the wildcat didn't do it for entire games. From what I've heard, the 49ers run the pistol almost exclusively with Kaep.

Yeah I remember the game.

They really weren't doin much in the traditional.

I don't think it's a secret that Shanny wants Griffin to develop into a more traditional QB.

If he doesn't he won't last long in the league.

Same with Kaep.

I didn't see RGIII as ready to do that yet, he has some learning to do.

IMO, he looked much better running the pistol in the games I watched of him.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

He's terrible

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness


This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, Dalton has a ton of limitations. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said.

You're taking for granted that issues you're already exaggerating would continue to be issues with better coaching/supporting cast. I'm not sold on Gruden and I have no doubt that the offense has huge holes that are going to reflect poorly on the QB.

How else do you expect pressure up the gut, a bunch of krappy receivers and no run game to manifest itself? You expect the QB to look awesome but just not quite have the good numbers?

What's gonna lead to the poor numbers, the poor showings.....off target throws maybe, questionable decisions and the like?.....That's what makes a QB look bad, QBs do those things more often when others aren't doing what they're supposed to do, or they can't do it.

NFL defenses back offenses into a corner when they know your run game can't hurt them and you've only got one real weapon....That's why Dalton looks so much better against the lesser defenses but he needs the help to get over the hump against the better ones.

The things you complain about with him will improve if we address the obvious issues. How much will they improve? Based on what Dalton is able to do against the not so good defenses with the limitations of this offense, I expect the improvement to be tremendous.

And P.S.......Tebow is a good ballplayer, just not a good NFL QB....He needs to switch positions.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Why are all these teams running college offenses right now?

Because they can get these young QBs to perform quicker by making them comfortable in a familiar offense.

An easy, 1 read, see the field, offense that allows these athletic QBs to play while slowly learning to read a defense.

In the past, most rookies sat for a year to learn the Pro game.

If the coaches are smart, and they are, they will slowly transform guys like RGIII, Newton, Kaep into more traditional QBs.

Try to keep up with the times ok?

Swing and a miss. Care to try again, or do you give up on the point I'm trying to make?

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time

This is the core issue with Dalton. Can he put throws in the tight windows required of an NFL QB? Especially the throws 15+ yards down the field? The mental stuff will come with the confidence inherent with hitting those throws. But to take the next step he needs to improve his accuracy and timing. Year 3 will be very interesting. Definitely put up or shut up time.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

He's terrible

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness


This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, Dalton has a ton of limitations. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said. When we say we have a WCO, it is meant in terminology, not exact system. Most offenses run short to intermediate timing routes. Unless you have a Bratkowski offense that relied on option routes and very good connection with the QB and target (Extension of Air Coryell). The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time

You don't think that Dalton's accuracy issues can be fixed?

IMO, it all has to do with staying calm in the pocket.

Too often he abandons his fundamentals and footwork, no matter the length of the pass or time in the pocket.

He simply refuses to consistently set his feet.

If he can fix that stuff his physical limitations will be no more than Drew Bree's has.

That's a lot to fix though lol.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

Swing and a miss. Care to try again, or do you give up on the point I'm trying to make?

You had a point?

You might have to be more clear, I'm groggy from the night shift.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by gardner30

You don't think that Dalton's accuracy issues can be fixed?

IMO, it all has to do with staying calm in the pocket.

Too often he abandons his fundamentals and footwork, no matter the length of the pass or time in the pocket.

He simply refuses to consistently set his feet.

If he can fix that stuff his physical limitations will be no more than Drew Bree's has.

That's a lot to fix though lol.

I don't know if they can be fixed down the field. I think some of it comes down to pure talent...and while I think Dalton seems like a great guy he might be more in the mold of John Kitna than Drew Brees. A good dude with limited arm talent. Kitna could win some games and occasionally put up some very strong #'s...but when it came down to it he just didn't have the skills to be a franchise type QB. We'll see...

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

He's terrible

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness


This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, 1. Dalton has a ton of limitations. 2. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. 3. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said. When we say we have a WCO, it is meant in terminology, not exact system. Most offenses run short to intermediate timing routes. Unless you have a Bratkowski offense that relied on option routes and very good connection with the QB and target (Extension of Air Coryell). 4. The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time

You're really exaggerating and even making up some of Dalton's faults.

1. I don't know know about a TON. You make it sound like he's a worthless bum. Somewhere just below Gus Frerotte.

2. He did overthrow some short passes, but "alarming frequency"? C'mon man...

Half his overthrows were to Hawk. Hawk happens to be the shortest WR in NFL history to get regular PT. Look it up.

3. He does panic in the "pocket" at times, but that's an issue that could be related to the fact that we started 3 different centers this year, and 2 of them sukked. We also never dialed up plays to offset the blitz, and lots of times, he would drop back and no receivers would be open.

4. What QB gets it right ALL the time?

I'd really like to ask you this: What do you think Dalton does well? You make it sound as if he's terrible at every facet of being a QB.

So how did he complete 62.3% of his throws? How did he account for 31 touchdowns?

How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by THEBURG

There is a world of difference there Guru, someday you will know the difference, when you learn football.

Exactly. Like the fact that Kaepernick can actually throw the ball with some semblance of accuracy, and doesn't rely on 4th quarter heroics to win ball games.
TT:
11 starts
122/261(46.7%), 1650yards, 6.3ypa, 12tds, 6ints, 78.4rtg
He also lost 6 fumbles

CK:
7 starts
131/209(62.7%), 1725yards, 8.3ypa, 10tds, 3ints, 100.4rtg
He also lost 2 fumbles

So in summation:
More accurate
More efficient
Throws more TDs and less ints per attempt
Less turnover prone when getting hit.

All that equals a better QB. Period. There's also the little fact that he is a big reason why the 49ers are in the SB.
Tebow was horrible in his 2nd playoff game, and honestly wasn't that good against the Steelers.

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

I actually make it a point to watch as many 49ers games as I can, actually. Kaepernick as a QB doesn't impress me; period. He runs as simplistic offense and isn't asked to throw the ball more than 20 times, his supporting cast is awesome, and they were nearly as successful with Alex Smith as they were with Kaepernick, and at least Smith can run a legitimate NFL offense, not some read-option bullspit that has already shredded one young QB's knee (RG3).

CK threw the ball an average of 26 times per game in his 9 starts this year. He may not throw the ball a lot, but he's great when he does, and that's all that matters.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?

Our defense.

Now, I'm not saying Dalton is a liability, or that he's bad(he's not), but I don't think he's the reason we made the playoffs back to back years either.

You saw what can happen when Marvin and Co. put together a top10 D; they're 3 for 3 making the playoffs.
09- 6th
11- 9th
12- 8th
Those 3 seasons the Bengals offense finished 22nd, 18th, and 12th in scoring offense.

[eoxyod]

I'm going to save some space and respond to everyone's general posts:
I am not exaggerating anything (Except for the "Always makes throws things. Slight hyperbole"). Otherwise, I am being 100% on target with my evaluation. He hits the WR in stride accurate on about 5% of his deep throws. The general # for good QBs is around 10-15%. That's obviously not accounting anything but minor adjustments by the WR.

He DOES throw high very often on quick drops. Gresham doesn't have great hands, but his drops were exaggerated by the ball at full extension over his head. I have seen the hands of the WRs go at least a foot over their head way too often.

He doesn't allow for a lot of YAC by his WRs. He was pretty good when it came to Gresham, but the WRs had to create YAC by themselves (Forcing missed tackles, mostly Hawk)

A lot of these issues are technique, but when those same problems have been there since he started his college career, it would take a long time to fix. It's such a learned set to go along with muscle memory. Chances are, he doesn't get out of that.

Other QBs have dealt with shuffling along the OL, and can still manipulate a pocket just fine. But his protection was fine on the interior until the end of the year when Boling decided to ****.

In terms of what Dalton is good at - He has accuracy to get the ball to his receivers (But as explained before, not to a level where YAC is there a lot). He has good functional mobility. He knows his best players. He has good intangibles. He knows route depths and timing pretty damn well. A good amount of his ints were on the WRs no named AJ.

I'd absolutely love to have a RB that strikes fear into an offense (At least enough to relieve defenses more often). Now, I think a new OC would be ok for Dalton. Any offense that works on getting WRs open is one I support. I thought Gruden's would work on that more, but this offense is elementary at this point, and that's bothersome.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Our defense.

Now, I'm not saying Dalton is a liability, or that he's bad(he's not), but I don't think he's the reason we made the playoffs back to back years either.

You saw what can happen when Marvin and Co. put together a top10 D; they're 3 for 3 making the playoffs.
09- 6th
11- 9th
12- 8th
Those 3 seasons the Bengals offense finished 22nd, 18th, and 12th in scoring offense.

I'm aware our defense is good. I'm just saying that if Dalton was as bad as some are saying, we wouldn't have made the playoffs even with the '85 Bears defense. The offense had plenty of moments where they carried this team to victory. It wasn't always the defense. Especially early in the season, when our D was still finding their way, and Dalton had a passer rating around 95.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

You had a point?

You might have to be more clear, I'm groggy from the night shift.

People were singing Kaepernick's praises for how well he could run the Pistol offense, but then bashed RG3 for running the same offense. I was pointing out how idiotic it was.

Hey, who remembers when the Bengals were putting up like 30 points a game? Seems like so long ago...way back in the first few weeks of this past year. C'mon people!

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I'm going to save some space and respond to everyone's general posts:
I am not exaggerating anything (Except for the "Always makes throws things. Slight hyperbole"). Otherwise, I am being 100% on target with my evaluation. He hits the WR in stride accurate on about 5% of his deep throws. The general # for good QBs is around 10-15%. That's obviously not accounting anything but minor adjustments by the WR.

If you tracked and came up with those percentages yourself, I question your subjective judgement of what is "on target", if you got them from somewhere else, I question theirs.

How could he possibly have the games he does at this level even against the bad defenses if his "physical limitations" were as bad as you describe. He couldn't, there's no way.

He DOES throw high very often on quick drops. Gresham doesn't have great hands, but his drops were exaggerated by the ball at full extension over his head. I have seen the hands of the WRs go at least a foot over their head way too often.

They get paid big money to make those catches, period, once it hits them in the hands, the QB did his job, if the receiver dont' catch it, they did NOT do theirs. I'm not talking about some barely got a finger tip on it stuff either, I'm talking "a foot over their head", that's nothing, absolutely nothing, I make that catch 99 times out of hundred (problem is I can't get separation from a 12 year old), these dudes need to do the same and just make the friggin' catch.

He doesn't allow for a lot of YAC by his WRs. He was pretty good when it came to Gresham, but the WRs had to create YAC by themselves (Forcing missed tackles, mostly Hawk)

Hawk is a diminutive gadget player, he goes down if ya breath on him, you can't put that on Dalton.

And this also conjecture on your part anyway, you have no idea whether those receivers on these plays where "Dalton didn't set them up for YAC", ran their routes at the right depth, made their break at the right time etc......

It is literally impossible for you to know that, therefore assigning all the blame in this department to Dalton is nothing more than you guessing that it is, of all the plays you can point to like that, it's reasonable to assume it was probably the receiver who graded out lower than did Dalton at least a decent percentage of the time when the coaches graded them.

A lot of these issues are technique, but when those same problems have been there since he started his college career, it would take a long time to fix. It's such a learned set to go along with muscle memory. Chances are, he doesn't get out of that.

Other QBs have dealt with shuffling along the OL, and can still manipulate a pocket just fine. But his protection was fine on the interior until the end of the year when Boling decided to ****.

Again, our one good receiver had the dropsies this year, the rest of them pretty much stunk or got hurt. This will reflect poorly on the QB, in the form of apparent bad passes, bad decisions etc.. Again I ask, how else do you expect obvious shortcomings of an offense to manifest themselves? How do you expect the QB to look? How could you possibly know how much better he might look were those issues remedied?

I think how well he's played against all but the upper tier defenses of the league and the fact that he posted a very respectable 87 rating this year, especially in his situation is much more of an indicator of what he can do with a better cast and better coaching than are "technique issues" that you think you've diagnosed.

In terms of what Dalton is good at - He has accuracy to get the ball to his receivers (But as explained before, not to a level where YAC is there a lot). He has good functional mobility. He knows his best players. He has good intangibles. He knows route depths and timing pretty damn well. A good amount of his ints were on the WRs no named AJ.

I'd absolutely love to have a RB that strikes fear into an offense (At least enough to relieve defenses more often). Now, I think a new OC would be ok for Dalton. Any offense that works on getting WRs open is one I support. I thought Gruden's would work on that more, but this offense is elementary at this point, and that's bothersome.

No matter many % of this and that you throw on it based on however many hours of tape you apparently watched and graded. You're still guessing, cuz you don't what other moving parts of the offense jobs were, you only know what they did. So you can't fairly make a definitive determination on what his ceiling is. Heck, that's an inexact science even for dudes that are getting paid to scout these guys and have more knowledge of all the variables than any of us.

I know this, for my money, a dude in his second year in this offense that can accomplish what he did.....He's a baller, and I expect much better things down the road should we give him the tools needed to succeed.

If we leave him hanging and set him up to fail, then he'll fail, and soon enough everyone will be blaming the QB. Gotta love the way ol' MB wags the dog eh?.......I see right through that garbage though so hopefully this salary floor thing will result in the offense getting what it needs to succeed as a unit while the defense is still strong, this is very doable. We've got a QB who is plenty good enough to go places if so.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

People were singing Kaepernick's praises for how well he could run the Pistol offense, but then bashed RG3 for running the same offense. I was pointing out how idiotic it was.

Hey, who remembers when the Bengals were putting up like 30 points a game? Seems like so long ago...way back in the first few weeks of this past year. C'mon people!

So why did you quote my post?

It seems we are on the same page here.

I have not been singing Kaepernicks praises, I said he was good but has a long way to go to be great.

He and RGIII are better athletes than QBs right now.

The pistol is a simple offense designed to allow mostly raw QB guys like Kaep, Newton and RGIII a way to build confidence in playing the position.

Its different so it has been successful.

Defenses will figure it out and those guys will have to be able to read and attack a defense in a more traditional way.

It sounds like we agree on those points.

No?

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

This is the core issue with Dalton. Can he put throws in the tight windows required of an NFL QB? Especially the throws 15+ yards down the field? The mental stuff will come with the confidence inherent with hitting those throws. But to take the next step he needs to improve his accuracy and timing. Year 3 will be very interesting. Definitely put up or shut up time.

Why? Cuz regardless the cirucmstances you're going to expect the QB to be bad a** and spectacular?

This sort of logic is maddening and it just. never. ends.

No matter how many times over I've shown ya'll the light, ya still don't see it.

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I don't know if they can be fixed down the field. I think some of it comes down to pure talent...and while I think Dalton seems like a great guy he might be more in the mold of John Kitna than Drew Brees. A good dude with limited arm talent. Kitna could win some games and occasionally put up some very strong #'s...but when it came down to it he just didn't have the skills to be a franchise type QB. We'll see...

You know who else was a good dude with limited arm talent? Steve Young. Check his stats from his Tampa years and get back to me.

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

You're really exaggerating and even making up some of Dalton's faults.

1. I don't know know about a TON. You make it sound like he's a worthless bum. Somewhere just below Gus Frerotte.

2. He did overthrow some short passes, but "alarming frequency"? C'mon man...

Half his overthrows were to Hawk. Hawk happens to be the shortest WR in NFL history to get regular PT. Look it up.

3. He does panic in the "pocket" at times, but that's an issue that could be related to the fact that we started 3 different centers this year, and 2 of them sukked. We also never dialed up plays to offset the blitz, and lots of times, he would drop back and no receivers would be open.

4. What QB gets it right ALL the time?

I'd really like to ask you this: What do you think Dalton does well? You make it sound as if he's terrible at every facet of being a QB.

So how did he complete 62.3% of his throws? How did he account for 31 touchdowns?

How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?

This. OMG, this.

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Exactly. Like the fact that Kaepernick can actually throw the ball with some semblance of accuracy, and doesn't rely on 4th quarter heroics to win ball games.
TT:
11 starts
122/261(46.7%), 1650yards, 6.3ypa, 12tds, 6ints, 78.4rtg
He also lost 6 fumbles

CK:
7 starts
131/209(62.7%), 1725yards, 8.3ypa, 10tds, 3ints, 100.4rtg
He also lost 2 fumbles

So in summation:
More accurate
More efficient
Throws more TDs and less ints per attempt
Less turnover prone when getting hit.

All that equals a better QB. Period. There's also the little fact that he is a big reason why the 49ers are in the SB.
Tebow was horrible in his 2nd playoff game, and honestly wasn't that good against the Steelers.



CK threw the ball an average of 26 times per game in his 9 starts this year. He may not throw the ball a lot, but he's great when he does, and that's all that matters.

Aw, I though that "some semblance of accuracy" was aimed at Dalton when I quoted this....Carry on LOL.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

So why did you quote my post?

It seems we are on the same page here.

I have not been singing Kaepernicks praises, I said he was good but has a long way to go to be great.

He and RGIII are better athletes than QBs right now.

The pistol is a simple offense designed to allow mostly raw QB guys like Kaep, Newton and RGIII a way to build confidence in playing the position.

Its different so it has been successful.

Defenses will figure it out and those guys will have to be able to read and attack a defense in a more traditional way.

It sounds like we agree on those points.

No?

The post I quoted seemed condescending and disagreeable, as though we weren't on the same page on that.