Bengals Learn Your Lesson From Losing Joseph In FA

[tazdt]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

I'm sure it had a lot to do with Carson and that whole ordeal. Had the FO done the smart thing and made him the same offer during the season, before Carson's trade demand, we likely wouldn't be looking at a hole on the opposite side of the field where JJoe used to be.

How could he go from being excited about getting a long-term deal done, thus staying in Cinci for another 5-6 seasons, then magically not want to be here anymore? Front Office follies; that's how.

Oh, and to the person saying JJoe had hands of stone and didn't really try here:
58 starts
220 solo tackles
76 passes defensed
14 interceptions(3 returned for TDs)
228 interception return yards
2FFs

That's a per season average of about:
61 solo tackles, 21pdef, 4ints(1 p6), 63 int return yards, 1FF

Clearly, he wasn't trying...

tbh i dont recall not one of those interceptions. i do recall seeing many of the balls jo jo got his hands on being dropped more often than not, wheres the stat for dropped or failed interceptions. :-/ look at hall stats they are better and he cost less money. ill also say i am no stat fan as they are missleading, imo stats are worthless and situational.
more so when it comes to corners.

[Stewy]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

A year or so before he was a free agent there were stories about him being willing to sign an extension. Plus franchise tag him.

Quote from a reliable source? Yeah that's right you don't have one. It was speculation at best, and you and thosel ike you have clung on to that grain of hope to continue your hate. Mike Brown will pay players. He's shown that. Players want to leave because of the atmosphere Mike Brown creates. They want to win AND they want the money. JJoe wanted to leave, period. And he was good enough to get as good as or better money than he could get here.

What if Andre Smith and MJ want to leave?

Then they'll leave. What's your point? Do you actually believe our FO isn't actively working these deals? Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean the FO is on vacation. When MB starts consulting you on a daily basis to provide info. on his FO strategies, please share with us......but don't hold your breath for that phone call.

[FootballBender]

If it makes you happy, I just bought a used copy of Madden12 and I re-signed Joseph.

I traded Ocho to Pats for 2 1st rounders, traded Rivers for 2 1st rounders and traded Palmer to Raiders. That was the most difficult trade.

I tried to get Gradkowski along with draft picks. Problem was, the Raiders didn't want Palmer (which I found was hilarious) but ended up getting two 3rd rounders for Palmer and signed Grad the following year.

I only simulate the Franchise mode seasons. So far, they finished 6-10 the 1st year and 8-8 the following year. I had to make adjustments to Dalton, Green & Atkins ratings to make them more realistic. My 1st draft, I went straight for a FS and SS. I'm about to build a winning football team and dominate. This mode will get me through the real offseason until FA and draft time.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Stewy

Quote from a reliable source? Yeah that's right you don't have one. It was speculation at best, and you and thosel ike you have clung on to that grain of hope to continue your hate. Mike Brown will pay players. He's shown that. Players want to leave because of the atmosphere Mike Brown creates. They want to win AND they want the money. JJoe wanted to leave, period. And he was good enough to get as good as or better money than he could get here.

Do you consider Joseph a reliable source?

Joseph optimistic about contract talks

"It shows positive signs," Joseph said of the negotiations. "It's one of those things that hopefully we can get it done. But if not, I'm here for the rest of this season and I'm focused on this season. I'm not that worried about it, but it's one of those things you'd like to get behind you."

Joseph is encouraged but knows there are no guarantees. Good cornerbacks are worth a lot of money in the NFL and large extensions have been difficult to hammer out due to the uncapped year. The "30-percent rule," in particular, is affecting a lot of players and adding difficulty to contract talks. Joseph said Tuesday that's also a hurdle in his negotiations.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5289124

[Stewy]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Do you consider Joseph a reliable source?

Joseph optimistic about contract talks

"It shows positive signs," Joseph said of the negotiations. "It's one of those things that hopefully we can get it done. But if not, I'm here for the rest of this season and I'm focused on this season. I'm not that worried about it, but it's one of those things you'd like to get behind you."

Joseph is encouraged but knows there are no guarantees. Good cornerbacks are worth a lot of money in the NFL and large extensions have been difficult to hammer out due to the uncapped year. The "30-percent rule," in particular, is affecting a lot of players and adding difficulty to contract talks. Joseph said Tuesday that's also a hurdle in his negotiations.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5289124

Ha! Great find! Color me corrected!

I will note however, that this was before the season of 2010. Obviously, something changed his mind, and that something was most likely the CP debacle. Again this doesn't mean the FO wasn't trying, and actually this interview renforces my key point, which was he had decided to leave. He'd had enough. He wasn't staying. The 2010 disaster and CP gate was enough for him to look elsewhere.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Stewy

Ha! Great find! Color me corrected!

I will note however, that this was before the season of 2010. Obviously, something changed his mind, and that something was most likely the CP debacle. Again this doesn't mean the FO wasn't trying, and actually this interview renforces my key point, which was he had decided to leave. He'd had enough. He wasn't staying. The 2010 disaster and CP gate was enough for him to look elsewhere.

I think that the Palmer thing weighed heavily. He was going to go to the Bengals...then the Texans swooped in with an offer similar to the Bengals and he saw them as a better opportunity. And frankly it has been as he's won playoff games and made the Pro Bowl.

A couple weird things happened to conspire against the Bengals too.

1) Some of the cap shennanigans that the Cowboys and Redskins did drove the franchise tag up on CB's.
2) Wouldn't he have been restricted if the CBA was still in effect?

[Stewy]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I think that the Palmer thing weighed heavily. He was going to go to the Bengals...then the Texans swooped in with an offer similar to the Bengals and he saw them as a better opportunity. And frankly it has been as he's won playoff games and made the Pro Bowl.

A couple weird things happened to conspire against the Bengals too.

1) Some of the cap shennanigans that the Cowboys and Redskins did drove the franchise tag up on CB's.
2) Wouldn't he have been restricted if the CBA was still in effect?

Yep I generally agree all around. However, it didn't sound like the Texans swooped very hard. I find it more likely that the Bengal offer was on the table. JJoe's agent told the texans what the bengals offered and they bettered it by making more of the money guranteed. And that was it. Big contract and out of the Bengal circus, with a better opportunity.

I will conclude by giving honest kudos to Marvin and the Bengals FO for turning what could have been a multi-year disaster into two winning seasons and a brighter furture for the team, than before JJoe and CP left. The turn around and feeling about the team are truly remarkable from start of 2011 till end 2012.

[Housh]

Originally Posted by tazdt

tbh i dont recall not one of those interceptions. i do recall seeing many of the balls jo jo got his hands on being dropped more often than not, wheres the stat for dropped or failed interceptions. :-/ look at hall stats they are better and he cost less money. ill also say i am no stat fan as they are missleading, imo stats are worthless and situational.
more so when it comes to corners.

While stat geeks and using stats in arguments is sometimes misleading.....YOU have NO LEGS AT ALL FOR THE ARGUMENT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE. You gave an opinion, and he showed you stats that DIRECTLY BOO BOO'ED on your WRONG opinion. Then you fought it by saying you dont recall him getting any picks.lol

Also a failed interception would still indicate hes trying because to have a failed pick you had to have had a play on the ball anyway so.......I mean whatever

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Stewy

Yep I generally agree all around. However, it didn't sound like the Texans swooped very hard. I find it more likely that the Bengal offer was on the table. JJoe's agent told the texans what the bengals offered and they bettered it by making more of the money guranteed. And that was it. Big contract and out of the Bengal circus, with a better opportunity.

I will conclude by giving honest kudos to Marvin and the Bengals FO for turning what could have been a multi-year disaster into two winning seasons and a brighter furture for the team, than before JJoe and CP left. The turn around and feeling about the team are truly remarkable from start of 2011 till end 2012.

That's how I think it went down with Joseph and Whitner also. And after they had a slightly better offer, they signed it without giving the Bengals a chance to up their offer...because I think MB would have upped it to keep Joseph.

Then, the PR spin came out that it was some grand strategy to not pay 2 high paid CB's.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Stewy

Quote from a reliable source? Yeah that's right you don't have one. It was speculation at best, and you and thosel ike you have clung on to that grain of hope to continue your hate. Mike Brown will pay players. He's shown that. Players want to leave because of the atmosphere Mike Brown creates. They want to win AND they want the money. JJoe wanted to leave, period. And he was good enough to get as good as or better money than he could get here.


Then they'll leave. What's your point? Do you actually believe our FO isn't actively working these deals? Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean the FO is on vacation. When MB starts consulting you on a daily basis to provide info. on his FO strategies, please share with us......but don't hold your breath for that phone call.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...franchise-tag/

[THE PISTONS]

Joseph, a fifth-year player, said he'd like to come back and was hoping there'd be a deal by now. He said he'd be amenable to getting tagged with the franchise or transition tag designation, which figures to be between $10 to $13 million.

"I'd sign it the first day," Joseph said with a laugh. "Hopefully we can get a deal done before then."

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-...f-5c36ab420202

[tazdt]

Originally Posted by Housh

While stat geeks and using stats in arguments is sometimes misleading.....YOU have NO LEGS AT ALL FOR THE ARGUMENT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE. You gave an opinion, and he showed you stats that DIRECTLY BOO BOO'ED on your WRONG opinion. Then you fought it by saying you dont recall him getting any picks.lol

Also a failed interception would still indicate hes trying because to have a failed pick you had to have had a play on the ball anyway so.......I mean whatever

your right i gave my opinion based on seeing every game jojo played for cinci, you gave yours and i disagree. want to see the non trying check out the jets playoff game 2009. all of this is pointless anyways he left who cares hall is better that was my point from the start. if swag stays healthy next year no one will remember jojo anyways. jojo was out of position alot and used his speed to cover his mistakes but with age you lose speed and this mistakes will start to show. letting jojo walk wasnt a bad thing imo once again, not worth what he got paid even more if he didnt want to be here. if your getting paid nfl money to play corner and a ball hits you in the hands is it to much for me to exspect him to catch it, its his job to. breaking up passes is nice and stops drives but catching those passes changes momentem and wins games. i guess i exspect to much. :-\

[Housh]

Originally Posted by tazdt

your right i gave my opinion based on seeing every game jojo played for cinci, you gave yours and i disagree. want to see the non trying check out the jets playoff game 2009. all of this is pointless anyways he left who cares hall is better that was my point from the start. if swag stays healthy next year no one will remember jojo anyways. jojo was out of position alot and used his speed to cover his mistakes but with age you lose speed and this mistakes will start to show. letting jojo walk wasnt a bad thing imo once again, not worth what he got paid even more if he didnt want to be here. if your getting paid nfl money to play corner and a ball hits you in the hands is it to much for me to exspect him to catch it, its his job to. breaking up passes is nice and stops drives but catching those passes changes momentem and wins games. i guess i exspect to much. :-\

but he DID catch the ball.....At an average of 4 times a year.......which by my standards is great......YOur opinion was BLATANTLY wrong...I mean I cant let that slide about Joesph.

[tazdt]

Originally Posted by Housh

but he DID catch the ball.....At an average of 4 times a year.......which by my standards is great......YOur opinion was BLATANTLY wrong...I mean I cant let that slide about Joesph.

oic this is about you wanting jojo's di** and not me. hope you get what you want :-) .bottom line he left our defense didnt miss a beat and we didnt have to pay an ok corner top 10 money. plus your math ***** jojo played 5 years here got 14 int. thats 2.8 average.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by tazdt

oic this is about you wanting jojo's di** and not me. hope you get what you want :-) .bottom line he left our defense didnt miss a beat and we didnt have to pay an ok corner top 10 money. plus your math ***** jojo played 5 years here got 14 int. thats 2.8 average.

58 games started/16 games in a season= 3.625 seasons

14ints/3.625=3.86 ints per FULL season. Let's go ahead and round that up to 4 since you can't have .86 interceptions.

So it's your math that stinks.

You don't think he was that good, I and quite a few others disagree. Your point of not wanting to pay him almost $10million per year for almost the same production as Hall is a good one, but you ruined your whole argument by typing that childish insult at the beginning of your post.

This may be an online message board, but most people still respect eachother here.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by PantheraTigrisTigris

I sure hope your right, they need to invest in the players they have and build a dome too!

Don't you mean they need to get the tax payers of Hamilton County to pay for a dome?

That will go over like a lead balloon.

The only way that will happen is if the Bengals have a mole on the City Council who will one day work for them after getting approval for the financing of the new construction.

Oh, wait...

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

His own mouth cited the uncertainty of the QB situation as one of the reasons he wanted to leave.

That's a fair point.

If the Bengals chose to use the franchise tag to keep him during the 2011 season, do you think his level of concern would be the same after Dalton had a Pro Bowl season his rookie year?

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Lolli

Completely disagree.

We beat this one up already, but there is a time line to things that cause it to be the front office's fault.

1. JJ wanted to stay, even mentioned being tagged was cool.
2. FO does not respond during last season of contract (dumb)
3. Palmer quits 1/23/2011
4. FO does not use tag on JJ (dumb)
5. Now JJ is not AS interested in coming back, tests FA
6. Texans outbid Bengal's offer (dumb)

The front office had 3 opportunities to retain JJ and failed. That is poor management.

Wow. The dime you just dropped is the size of a manhole cover.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

3. Joseph had aserious injury history that made him a risk to sign to a long term deal. And it wasn't just random injuries. It was the same foot/ankle problems over and over again. he missed his entire season at Sout Carolina in '04, then either missed games or was slowed by the same injury through almost every season with the bengals.

Not once have you ever been able to show a shred of proof he had the same diagnosis and thus the same injury. Not once.

You've implied. You've suggested. You've alluded. You've insinuated.

But, not once have you ever shown proof.

Do you know what proof is, counselor?

PS Still waiting on a "Thank you" for your grandmother's bone bruise consult, btw.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Not once have you ever been able to show a shred of proof he had the same diagnosis and thus the same injury. Not once.

You've implied. You've suggested. You've alluded. You've insinuated.

But, not once have you ever shown proof.

Do you know what proof is, counselor?

I have posted quotes from Joseph himself saying that it was the same injury that he re-aggravated.

You are the one who has posted zero evidence that the injury was not a recurring problem.

I am not getting into that again.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

Then there really is no point. Many are pointing to an exception as the rule when the fact remains (which keeps being ignored) that this team does a VERY good job of retaining their core talent.

They have shown they are willing to extend players before they reach free agency.

Carson and Chad received fair market to above market deals.

Whitworth and Hall received below market value compared to what they would receive in FA.

Geathers and Cook received more than they deserved or would receive in FA.

If you're willing to tag Stacy Andrews (who was horrible), why not tag you're #1 CB who was part of arguably the best CB tandem in the league?

How are they at re-signing their own players once they reach free agency?

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

I have posted quotes from Joseph himself saying that it was the same injury that he re-aggravated.

You are the one who has posted zero evidence that the injury was not a recurring problem.

I am not getting into that again.

Just because the same foot was injured more than once doesn't mean it is the same injury or related to a previous injury.

I've shown you where a Jone's fracture and a Dancer's fracture affects the same bone in the same foot yet are totally unrelated and the fracture site differs by only an inch apart.

The burden of proof lies upon you to prove it is the same diagnosis, not just the same foot.

If you want to claim he injured the same foot more than once, fine. If you want to claim he had the same injury, show your evidence it was the same injury. However, you can't show that evidence because you don't have it and we both know it.

PS Still waiting on the "Thank you" for your grandmother's bone bruise consult, btw.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

I do not care about a spin .......once again this team retains more core players than it loses and that is the bottomline.

Show me the balance sheet of lost vs. retained.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Lolli

1. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...franchise-tag/

2. MB: "So, JJ, how do you feel about league minimum?" Do YOU have a link showing the offer that they made during the season? I will be holding my breath.

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-...f-5c36ab420202

Joseph, a fifth-year player, said he'd like to come back and was hoping there'd be a deal by now.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Stewy

Read my post above. he was offered an extension. He didn't take it. He went out to Free Agency and got an offer. We gave him an equal one.


He wanted to leave.

He left.

The money didn't matter.

Same with TJ.

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-...f-5c36ab420202

Joseph, a fifth-year player, said he'd like to come back and was hoping there'd be a deal by now. He said he'd be amenable to getting tagged with the franchise or transition tag designation, which figures to be between $10 to $13 million.

"I'd sign it the first day," Joseph said with a laugh. "Hopefully we can get a deal done before then."

What was reported live during a game was the Texans offered more guaranteed money. The Bengals offered more incentives.

They have a saying in Texas, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Apparently, the Bengals FO believes they are of equal value even though the value of incentives may never materialize. (See Keith Rivers's bonuses which never materialized, but the Bengals used as an excuse towards unspent salary cap money.)