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  #676  
Old 01-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
Swing and a miss. Care to try again, or do you give up on the point I'm trying to make?
You had a point?

You might have to be more clear, I'm groggy from the night shift.
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  #677  
Old 01-23-2013, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
You don't think that Dalton's accuracy issues can be fixed?

IMO, it all has to do with staying calm in the pocket.

Too often he abandons his fundamentals and footwork, no matter the length of the pass or time in the pocket.

He simply refuses to consistently set his feet.

If he can fix that stuff his physical limitations will be no more than Drew Bree's has.

That's a lot to fix though lol.
I don't know if they can be fixed down the field. I think some of it comes down to pure talent...and while I think Dalton seems like a great guy he might be more in the mold of John Kitna than Drew Brees. A good dude with limited arm talent. Kitna could win some games and occasionally put up some very strong #'s...but when it came down to it he just didn't have the skills to be a franchise type QB. We'll see...
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  #678  
Old 01-23-2013, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by eoxyod View Post
I don't care a single tiny bit that the 49ers are much better than the Bengals. That has nothing to do with it. The fact is, Kaepernick beats Dalton in every physical aspect possible, while sharing his intangible ability (Which is overrated to a level). And while it's hard to find that great QB, it's much harder to find consistent success needing everything else around the team to be great to have a chance. Is Kaepernick elite? No, not yet. He's just very good right now. He has a much better chance to reach that level than Dalton, and it's ridiculous that anyone could really break down the way both play QB and disagree.

He's terrible

Wilson also runs the pistol to great effectiveness


This offense utilizes Dalton's strengths and does its best to mask his limitations. The problem is, as I've said multiple times, 1. Dalton has a ton of limitations. 2. On quick passes, Dalton throws high at an alarming frequency. 3. When he doesn't throw very quickly, he panics in the pocket or just chucks it up. I'm ok with the latter when the target is AJ, but it's still a concern. I'm not saying our offense is great. The routes are similar to the Ravens, in the sense that there are limited route combinations and movement. That IS a problem, but it wouldn't help the things I said. When we say we have a WCO, it is meant in terminology, not exact system. Most offenses run short to intermediate timing routes. Unless you have a Bratkowski offense that relied on option routes and very good connection with the QB and target (Extension of Air Coryell). 4. The thing is, Dalton just isn't good enough, anticipitory enough, or accurate enough to get the ball in teh right spot all the time
You're really exaggerating and even making up some of Dalton's faults.

1. I don't know know about a TON. You make it sound like he's a worthless bum. Somewhere just below Gus Frerotte.

2. He did overthrow some short passes, but "alarming frequency"? C'mon man...

Half his overthrows were to Hawk. Hawk happens to be the shortest WR in NFL history to get regular PT. Look it up.

3. He does panic in the "pocket" at times, but that's an issue that could be related to the fact that we started 3 different centers this year, and 2 of them sukked. We also never dialed up plays to offset the blitz, and lots of times, he would drop back and no receivers would be open.

4. What QB gets it right ALL the time?

I'd really like to ask you this: What do you think Dalton does well? You make it sound as if he's terrible at every facet of being a QB.

So how did he complete 62.3% of his throws? How did he account for 31 touchdowns?

How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?
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From 2006-2013, this team has never finished higher than 20th in yards per carry. They've had an average rank of 27th during those 8 seasons.

During those 8 seasons, we've had several starting RBs, different starters on the o-line, different TEs and FBs and 2 different RB coaches. Only our o-line coach remained the same.
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  #679  
Old 01-23-2013, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by THEBURG View Post
There is a world of difference there Guru, someday you will know the difference, when you learn football.
Exactly. Like the fact that Kaepernick can actually throw the ball with some semblance of accuracy, and doesn't rely on 4th quarter heroics to win ball games.
TT:
11 starts
122/261(46.7%), 1650yards, 6.3ypa, 12tds, 6ints, 78.4rtg
He also lost 6 fumbles

CK:
7 starts
131/209(62.7%), 1725yards, 8.3ypa, 10tds, 3ints, 100.4rtg
He also lost 2 fumbles

So in summation:
More accurate
More efficient
Throws more TDs and less ints per attempt
Less turnover prone when getting hit.

All that equals a better QB. Period. There's also the little fact that he is a big reason why the 49ers are in the SB.
Tebow was horrible in his 2nd playoff game, and honestly wasn't that good against the Steelers.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
I actually make it a point to watch as many 49ers games as I can, actually. Kaepernick as a QB doesn't impress me; period. He runs as simplistic offense and isn't asked to throw the ball more than 20 times, his supporting cast is awesome, and they were nearly as successful with Alex Smith as they were with Kaepernick, and at least Smith can run a legitimate NFL offense, not some read-option bullspit that has already shredded one young QB's knee (RG3).
CK threw the ball an average of 26 times per game in his 9 starts this year. He may not throw the ball a lot, but he's great when he does, and that's all that matters.
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  #680  
Old 01-23-2013, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?
Our defense.

Now, I'm not saying Dalton is a liability, or that he's bad(he's not), but I don't think he's the reason we made the playoffs back to back years either.

You saw what can happen when Marvin and Co. put together a top10 D; they're 3 for 3 making the playoffs.
09- 6th
11- 9th
12- 8th
Those 3 seasons the Bengals offense finished 22nd, 18th, and 12th in scoring offense.
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  #681  
Old 01-23-2013, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

I'm going to save some space and respond to everyone's general posts:
I am not exaggerating anything (Except for the "Always makes throws things. Slight hyperbole"). Otherwise, I am being 100% on target with my evaluation. He hits the WR in stride accurate on about 5% of his deep throws. The general # for good QBs is around 10-15%. That's obviously not accounting anything but minor adjustments by the WR.

He DOES throw high very often on quick drops. Gresham doesn't have great hands, but his drops were exaggerated by the ball at full extension over his head. I have seen the hands of the WRs go at least a foot over their head way too often.

He doesn't allow for a lot of YAC by his WRs. He was pretty good when it came to Gresham, but the WRs had to create YAC by themselves (Forcing missed tackles, mostly Hawk)

A lot of these issues are technique, but when those same problems have been there since he started his college career, it would take a long time to fix. It's such a learned set to go along with muscle memory. Chances are, he doesn't get out of that.

Other QBs have dealt with shuffling along the OL, and can still manipulate a pocket just fine. But his protection was fine on the interior until the end of the year when Boling decided to ****.

In terms of what Dalton is good at - He has accuracy to get the ball to his receivers (But as explained before, not to a level where YAC is there a lot). He has good functional mobility. He knows his best players. He has good intangibles. He knows route depths and timing pretty damn well. A good amount of his ints were on the WRs no named AJ.

I'd absolutely love to have a RB that strikes fear into an offense (At least enough to relieve defenses more often). Now, I think a new OC would be ok for Dalton. Any offense that works on getting WRs open is one I support. I thought Gruden's would work on that more, but this offense is elementary at this point, and that's bothersome.
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  #682  
Old 01-23-2013, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
Our defense.

Now, I'm not saying Dalton is a liability, or that he's bad(he's not), but I don't think he's the reason we made the playoffs back to back years either.

You saw what can happen when Marvin and Co. put together a top10 D; they're 3 for 3 making the playoffs.
09- 6th
11- 9th
12- 8th
Those 3 seasons the Bengals offense finished 22nd, 18th, and 12th in scoring offense.
I'm aware our defense is good. I'm just saying that if Dalton was as bad as some are saying, we wouldn't have made the playoffs even with the '85 Bears defense. The offense had plenty of moments where they carried this team to victory. It wasn't always the defense. Especially early in the season, when our D was still finding their way, and Dalton had a passer rating around 95.
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From 2006-2013, this team has never finished higher than 20th in yards per carry. They've had an average rank of 27th during those 8 seasons.

During those 8 seasons, we've had several starting RBs, different starters on the o-line, different TEs and FBs and 2 different RB coaches. Only our o-line coach remained the same.
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  #683  
Old 01-23-2013, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
You had a point?

You might have to be more clear, I'm groggy from the night shift.
People were singing Kaepernick's praises for how well he could run the Pistol offense, but then bashed RG3 for running the same offense. I was pointing out how idiotic it was.

Hey, who remembers when the Bengals were putting up like 30 points a game? Seems like so long ago...way back in the first few weeks of this past year. C'mon people!
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  #684  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by eoxyod View Post
I'm going to save some space and respond to everyone's general posts:
I am not exaggerating anything (Except for the "Always makes throws things. Slight hyperbole"). Otherwise, I am being 100% on target with my evaluation. He hits the WR in stride accurate on about 5% of his deep throws. The general # for good QBs is around 10-15%. That's obviously not accounting anything but minor adjustments by the WR.

If you tracked and came up with those percentages yourself, I question your subjective judgement of what is "on target", if you got them from somewhere else, I question theirs.

How could he possibly have the games he does at this level even against the bad defenses if his "physical limitations" were as bad as you describe. He couldn't, there's no way.


He DOES throw high very often on quick drops. Gresham doesn't have great hands, but his drops were exaggerated by the ball at full extension over his head. I have seen the hands of the WRs go at least a foot over their head way too often.

They get paid big money to make those catches, period, once it hits them in the hands, the QB did his job, if the receiver dont' catch it, they did NOT do theirs. I'm not talking about some barely got a finger tip on it stuff either, I'm talking "a foot over their head", that's nothing, absolutely nothing, I make that catch 99 times out of hundred (problem is I can't get separation from a 12 year old), these dudes need to do the same and just make the friggin' catch.

He doesn't allow for a lot of YAC by his WRs. He was pretty good when it came to Gresham, but the WRs had to create YAC by themselves (Forcing missed tackles, mostly Hawk)

Hawk is a diminutive gadget player, he goes down if ya breath on him, you can't put that on Dalton.

And this also conjecture on your part anyway, you have no idea whether those receivers on these plays where "Dalton didn't set them up for YAC", ran their routes at the right depth, made their break at the right time etc......

It is literally impossible for you to know that, therefore assigning all the blame in this department to Dalton is nothing more than you guessing that it is, of all the plays you can point to like that, it's reasonable to assume it was probably the receiver who graded out lower than did Dalton at least a decent percentage of the time when the coaches graded them.


A lot of these issues are technique, but when those same problems have been there since he started his college career, it would take a long time to fix. It's such a learned set to go along with muscle memory. Chances are, he doesn't get out of that.

Other QBs have dealt with shuffling along the OL, and can still manipulate a pocket just fine. But his protection was fine on the interior until the end of the year when Boling decided to ****.

Again, our one good receiver had the dropsies this year, the rest of them pretty much stunk or got hurt. This will reflect poorly on the QB, in the form of apparent bad passes, bad decisions etc.. Again I ask, how else do you expect obvious shortcomings of an offense to manifest themselves? How do you expect the QB to look? How could you possibly know how much better he might look were those issues remedied?

I think how well he's played against all but the upper tier defenses of the league and the fact that he posted a very respectable 87 rating this year, especially in his situation is much more of an indicator of what he can do with a better cast and better coaching than are "technique issues" that you think you've diagnosed.


In terms of what Dalton is good at - He has accuracy to get the ball to his receivers (But as explained before, not to a level where YAC is there a lot). He has good functional mobility. He knows his best players. He has good intangibles. He knows route depths and timing pretty damn well. A good amount of his ints were on the WRs no named AJ.

I'd absolutely love to have a RB that strikes fear into an offense (At least enough to relieve defenses more often). Now, I think a new OC would be ok for Dalton. Any offense that works on getting WRs open is one I support. I thought Gruden's would work on that more, but this offense is elementary at this point, and that's bothersome.

No matter many % of this and that you throw on it based on however many hours of tape you apparently watched and graded. You're still guessing, cuz you don't what other moving parts of the offense jobs were, you only know what they did. So you can't fairly make a definitive determination on what his ceiling is. Heck, that's an inexact science even for dudes that are getting paid to scout these guys and have more knowledge of all the variables than any of us.

I know this, for my money, a dude in his second year in this offense that can accomplish what he did.....He's a baller, and I expect much better things down the road should we give him the tools needed to succeed.

If we leave him hanging and set him up to fail, then he'll fail, and soon enough everyone will be blaming the QB. Gotta love the way ol' MB wags the dog eh?.......I see right through that garbage though so hopefully this salary floor thing will result in the offense getting what it needs to succeed as a unit while the defense is still strong, this is very doable. We've got a QB who is plenty good enough to go places if so.
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  #685  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
People were singing Kaepernick's praises for how well he could run the Pistol offense, but then bashed RG3 for running the same offense. I was pointing out how idiotic it was.

Hey, who remembers when the Bengals were putting up like 30 points a game? Seems like so long ago...way back in the first few weeks of this past year. C'mon people!
So why did you quote my post?

It seems we are on the same page here.

I have not been singing Kaepernicks praises, I said he was good but has a long way to go to be great.

He and RGIII are better athletes than QBs right now.

The pistol is a simple offense designed to allow mostly raw QB guys like Kaep, Newton and RGIII a way to build confidence in playing the position.

Its different so it has been successful.

Defenses will figure it out and those guys will have to be able to read and attack a defense in a more traditional way.

It sounds like we agree on those points.

No?
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  #686  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
This is the core issue with Dalton. Can he put throws in the tight windows required of an NFL QB? Especially the throws 15+ yards down the field? The mental stuff will come with the confidence inherent with hitting those throws. But to take the next step he needs to improve his accuracy and timing. Year 3 will be very interesting. Definitely put up or shut up time.
Why? Cuz regardless the cirucmstances you're going to expect the QB to be bad a** and spectacular?

This sort of logic is maddening and it just. never. ends.

No matter how many times over I've shown ya'll the light, ya still don't see it.

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
I don't know if they can be fixed down the field. I think some of it comes down to pure talent...and while I think Dalton seems like a great guy he might be more in the mold of John Kitna than Drew Brees. A good dude with limited arm talent. Kitna could win some games and occasionally put up some very strong #'s...but when it came down to it he just didn't have the skills to be a franchise type QB. We'll see...
You know who else was a good dude with limited arm talent? Steve Young. Check his stats from his Tampa years and get back to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
You're really exaggerating and even making up some of Dalton's faults.

1. I don't know know about a TON. You make it sound like he's a worthless bum. Somewhere just below Gus Frerotte.

2. He did overthrow some short passes, but "alarming frequency"? C'mon man...

Half his overthrows were to Hawk. Hawk happens to be the shortest WR in NFL history to get regular PT. Look it up.

3. He does panic in the "pocket" at times, but that's an issue that could be related to the fact that we started 3 different centers this year, and 2 of them sukked. We also never dialed up plays to offset the blitz, and lots of times, he would drop back and no receivers would be open.

4. What QB gets it right ALL the time?

I'd really like to ask you this: What do you think Dalton does well? You make it sound as if he's terrible at every facet of being a QB.

So how did he complete 62.3% of his throws? How did he account for 31 touchdowns?

How did we make the playoffs 2 years in a row with such a liability at the most important position?
This. OMG, this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
Exactly. Like the fact that Kaepernick can actually throw the ball with some semblance of accuracy, and doesn't rely on 4th quarter heroics to win ball games.
TT:
11 starts
122/261(46.7%), 1650yards, 6.3ypa, 12tds, 6ints, 78.4rtg
He also lost 6 fumbles

CK:
7 starts
131/209(62.7%), 1725yards, 8.3ypa, 10tds, 3ints, 100.4rtg
He also lost 2 fumbles

So in summation:
More accurate
More efficient
Throws more TDs and less ints per attempt
Less turnover prone when getting hit.

All that equals a better QB. Period. There's also the little fact that he is a big reason why the 49ers are in the SB.
Tebow was horrible in his 2nd playoff game, and honestly wasn't that good against the Steelers.



CK threw the ball an average of 26 times per game in his 9 starts this year. He may not throw the ball a lot, but he's great when he does, and that's all that matters.
Aw, I though that "some semblance of accuracy" was aimed at Dalton when I quoted this....Carry on LOL.
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  #687  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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So why did you quote my post?

It seems we are on the same page here.

I have not been singing Kaepernicks praises, I said he was good but has a long way to go to be great.

He and RGIII are better athletes than QBs right now.

The pistol is a simple offense designed to allow mostly raw QB guys like Kaep, Newton and RGIII a way to build confidence in playing the position.

Its different so it has been successful.

Defenses will figure it out and those guys will have to be able to read and attack a defense in a more traditional way.

It sounds like we agree on those points.

No?
The post I quoted seemed condescending and disagreeable, as though we weren't on the same page on that.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by savagehenry54 View Post
No matter many % of this and that you throw on it based on however many hours of tape you apparently watched and graded. You're still guessing, cuz you don't what other moving parts of the offense jobs were, you only know what they did. So you can't fairly make a definitive determination on what his ceiling is. Heck, that's an inexact science even for dudes that are getting paid to scout these guys and have more knowledge of all the variables than any of us.

I know this, for my money, a dude in his second year in this offense that can accomplish what he did.....He's a baller, and I expect much better things down the road should we give him the tools needed to succeed.

If we leave him hanging and set him up to fail, then he'll fail, and soon enough everyone will be blaming the QB. Gotta love the way ol' MB wags the dog eh?.......I see right through that garbage though so hopefully this salary floor thing will result in the offense getting what it needs to succeed as a unit while the defense is still strong, this is very doable. We've got a QB who is plenty good enough to go places if so.
I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.
Brees in SD don't count. Steve Young in Tampa don't count. Kurt Warner in NY don't count. Dan Marino having a lifetime rating in the mid 80's don't count. Boomer in 88 compared to Boomer in 91 don't count. Alex Smith pre Harbaugh compared to after Harbaugh don't count.

None of that matters.

No context allowed when discussing QBs.

Regardless of how history has shown us time and again that there is an overwhelming amount of context to consider......

It's still now allowed cuz that's the rules that all the "Bill Walsh's" of your local message boards just made up.

They're gonna give these QBs the ol' "eyeball test", then they're gonna tell ya what it is homey.

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Old 01-23-2013, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Brees in SD don't count. Steve Young in Tampa don't count. Kurt Warner in NY don't count. Dan Marino having a lifetime rating in the mid 80's don't count. Boomer in 88 compared to Boomer in 91 don't count. Alex Smith pre Harbaugh compared to after Harbaugh don't count.

None of that matters.

No context allowed when discussing QBs.

Regardless of how history has shown us time and again that there is an overwhelming amount of context to consider......

It's still now allowed cuz that's the rules that all the "Bill Walsh's" of your local message boards just made up.

They're gonna give these QBs the ol' "eyeball test", then they're gonna tell ya what it is homey.

If you look around the league at the QBs that have the "Elite" tag next to their name they have essentially been in the same system their whole careers.

Yeah Peyton Manning moved but he took the offense he ran his whole career with him.

Roethlisturd has switched OCs a couple of times but the offenses are relatively similar.

I'm not sure how the media defines "Elite".

I look at "Elite" as how much can the play of the QB mask other weaknesses of the team.

You can't pay All-Pros at every position and every year the team will have a weak spot of some sort.

A guy like Mark Sanchez probably can't mask anything, a guy like Tom Brady can probably mask several things.

Maybe they should say "Elite" in said QBs offense?
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
If you look around the league at the QBs that have the "Elite" tag next to their name they have essentially been in the same system their whole careers.

Yeah Peyton Manning moved but he took the offense he ran his whole career with him.

Roethlisturd has switched OCs a couple of times but the offenses are relatively similar.

I'm not sure how the media defines "Elite".

I look at "Elite" as how much can the play of the QB mask other weaknesses of the team.

You can't pay All-Pros at every position and every year the team will have a weak spot of some sort.

A guy like Mark Sanchez probably can't mask anything, a guy like Tom Brady can probably mask several things.

Maybe they should say "Elite" in said QBs offense?
My thing with this thread is much less about who is or isn't considered "elite" and more about etching in stone how good a young QB like Dalton has the potential to be based on judgements made of his first two seasons playing for an offense that everyone knows has plenty of issues.

He would have had to play at a much lower level and done so consistently, for me to judge him as harshly as some folks are.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:54 AM
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Bal Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Why? Cuz regardless the cirucmstances you're going to expect the QB to be bad a** and spectacular?

This sort of logic is maddening and it just. never. ends.

No matter how many times over I've shown ya'll the light, ya still don't see it.




You know who else was a good dude with limited arm talent? Steve Young. Check his stats from his Tampa years and get back to me.
What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Throws of 41+ yards (passer rating in parenthesis)

1. Schaub- 3-4-164-2-0 (156.3)
2. Brees- 4-6-223-2-0 (149.3)
3. Stafford- 6-11-303-2-0 (139.2)
4. Rapist- 3-9-179-2-0 (121.5)
5. Foles- 1-3-44-1-0 (121.5)
6. Griffin- 4-13-246-4-0 (119.4)
7. Bradford- 2-8-101-2-0 (118.8)
8. Weeden- 1-6-62-1-0 (109.7)
9. Hasselbeck- 1-6-30-1-0 (87.5)
10. A.Smith- 1-3-55-0-0 (81.9)
Newton- 4-12-206-0-0 (81.9)
12. Dalton- 2-7-105-1-1 (79.2)
Palmer- 1-4-58-0-0 (79.2)
14. Cutler- 2-8-98-1-1 (78.1)
15. Flacco- 2-16-99-1-0 (73.7)
16. Ryan- 3-10-157-1-1 (72.9)
17. Wilson- 3-11-147-1-3 (69.9)
18. Freeman- 3-12-159-1-2 (67.4)
19. Luck- 2-12-90-1-2 (46.5)
20. Ponder- 1-3-54-0-1 (42.4)
21. Brady- 0-6-0-0-0 (39.6)
Peyton- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
Eli- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Fitzp- 0-4-0-0-0 (39.6)
Cassel- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
Tannehill- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Gabbert- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Henne- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
29. Romo- 2-12-114-0-2 (27.1)
30. Vick- 2-12-95-0-1 (25.3)
31. Rodgers- 1-6-52-0-1 (23.6)
32. Rivers- 0-4-0-0-1 (0.0)
Sanchez- 0-5-0-0-1 (0.0)
Locker- 0-5-0-0-2 (0.0)

Completion % on throws over 20 yards

1. A.Smith- 47.1%
2. Ryan- 44.4%
3. Hasselbeck- 43.9%
4. Griffin- 41.9%
5. Brees- 41.4%
6. Peyton- 39.7%
7. Rodgers- 39.6%
Newton- 39.6%
9. Eli- 37.7%
10. Freeman- 36.9%
11. Locker- 36.5%
12. Wilson- 34.0%
13. Brady- 33.3%
Tannehill- 33.3%
15. Schaub- 32.6%
Sanchez- 32.6%
17. Flacco- 32.5%
18. Luck- 31.3%
19. Rivers- 31.3%
20. Bradford- 30.9%
21. Henne- 29.4%
Cassel- 29.4%
23. Cutler- 28.8%
Romo- 28.8%
Stafford- 28.8%
26. Vick- 25.6%
27. Dalton- 25.0%
Gabbert- 25.0%
29. Palmer- 22.4%
30. Foles- 22.2%
31. Roeth- 21.6%
Weeden- 21.6%
33. Fitzp- 21.4%
34. Ponder- 16.7%

Notes:

- In 2011, Dalton completed 42.9% of his throws over 20 yards. That would've been the 4th best % this year.

- Why did Dalton's completion % on 21+ yard throws drop from 42.9% last year to 25.0% this year? Perhaps because Jerome Simpson > Binns/Tate/Jones?

- In 2011, Dalton went 3-6-131-2-1 (95.8 passer rating) on throws of 41+ yards. So for his career, he is 5-13-236-3-2 on long bombs, which is very good when compared to his peers.

- Only qualifying QBs were included.

I think these numbers prove that Andy does not have a problem with deep throws. Especially when you look at his % from last year which was outstanding. The difference is obvious. Simpson was a legit #2 that teams had to respect. This year, we've had 4 different #2 wr's, and only one of them made any sort of impact.
As Shake n Blake shows, Dalton is average on deep balls. And he is young enough and still has time to improve. Give him a running game (so we can use play action) and another option downfield, and he will get better.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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As Shake n Blake shows, Dalton is average on deep balls. And he is young enough and still has time to improve. Give him a running game (so we can use play action) and another option downfield, and he will get better.
This is why I hate stats. To insinuate that Dalton is a better deep ball passer than Brady, Ryan, Cutler, Flacco etc. is absurd. To that point are those balls that went 40 yards in the air...and just because it was completed doesnt mean it was a good throw. On a couple of Daltons 'bombs' AJ scorched the coverage and had to wait for the ball. Poor throw. Good Result. There is a flipside to that coin as well. For example, I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well v. Pitt but statistically it was a poor outing. But are you all seriously trying to argue that Dalton is one of the best QB's with deep throws? This list has Brandon Weeden and Nick Foles at the top for FFS.

I'd say the 20+ yards is probably more accurate due to what I'm assuming is a much larger sample size. Just for clarification, are those throws that go 20 yards in the air or could it be a screen that went for 20+? Just curious.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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This is why I hate stats. To insinuate that Dalton is a better deep ball passer than Brady, Ryan, Cutler, Flacco etc. is absurd. To that point are those balls that went 40 yards in the air...and just because it was completed doesnt mean it was a good throw. On a couple of Daltons 'bombs' AJ scorched the coverage and had to wait for the ball. Poor throw. Good Result. There is a flipside to that coin as well. For example, I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well v. Pitt but statistically it was a poor outing. But are you all seriously trying to argue that Dalton is one of the best QB's with deep throws? This list has Brandon Weeden and Nick Foles at the top for FFS.

I'd say the 20+ yards is probably more accurate due to what I'm assuming is a much larger sample size. Just for clarification, are those throws that go 20 yards in the air or could it be a screen that went for 20+? Just curious.
The flipside works the same. Good throws and bad routes or drops.

I am not sure on the YAC. Shake n Blake believes it is through the air, because the numbers would probably be higher for some QBs if they included YAC.

That is speculation though.

Still, I don't think he is awful on deep throws. He isn't the best, but I don't think he needs to be.
I think we need to start doing what New England did to make up for lack of a dynamic RB and doing screens and Dump off passes. Dink and Dunk and give that defense a rest!

Or, draft a better RB and get the running game going.

Oh and I agree. I would be curious to see the 20+ yards throws. I'd also like to see how many drops he had on long throws.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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The flipside works the same. Good throws and bad routes or drops.

I am not sure on the YAC. Shake n Blake believes it is through the air, because the numbers would probably be higher for some QBs if they included YAC.

That is speculation though.

Still, I don't think he is awful on deep throws. He isn't the best, but I don't think he needs to be.
I think we need to start doing what New England did to make up for lack of a dynamic RB and doing screens and Dump off passes. Dink and Dunk and give that defense a rest!

Or, draft a better RB and get the running game going.

Oh and I agree. I would be curious to see the 20+ yards throws. I'd also like to see how many drops he had on long throws.
I think we try to do this...but because we have no deep or intermediate game it doesn't work. We saw this at the end of the season when defenses seemed to figure out how to play the Bengals. You have DB's just sitting on the underneath stuff bc they know the offense struggles with throwing the ball 15+ yards to anyone not named AJ Green. So IMO, a deep and intermediate game opens everything up (run game, screen). That's why when we tried to run screens v. the Texans they were a disaster v. when NE does it they succeed. It's because the defense has to defend the whole field. So I think in theory you are correct...but in reality without the other parts of the passing game posing some sort of threat dinking and dunking down the field is not realistic.

To be clear, though. I think Dalton should get another year. I think we should draft a WR fairly early (I like DeAndre Hopkins). With Sanu and Jones having another year under the belt and a guy like Hopkins opposite AJ we'll see what's what.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:05 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I think we try to do this...but because we have no deep or intermediate game it doesn't work. We saw this at the end of the season when defenses seemed to figure out how to play the Bengals. You have DB's just sitting on the underneath stuff bc they know the offense struggles with throwing the ball 15+ yards to anyone not named AJ Green. So IMO, a deep and intermediate game opens everything up (run game, screen). That's why when we tried to run screens v. the Texans they were a disaster v. when NE does it they succeed. It's because the defense has to defend the whole field. So I think in theory you are correct...but in reality without the other parts of the passing game posing some sort of threat dinking and dunking down the field is not realistic.

To be clear, though. I think Dalton should get another year. I think we should draft a WR fairly early (I like DeAndre Hopkins). With Sanu and Jones having another year under the belt and a guy like Hopkins opposite AJ we'll see what's what.
It would also help if we had a playmaker like Wes Welker. Someone who can get YAC.
NE didn't have a deep threat before Randy Moss, at least not a consistent one. Brady is just a great QB.

I blame most of our offensive woes on gameplanning, which falls on the coaching. We need to involve the TE's more. I know Gresham had a poor wildcard game, but we can't let that stop us. I would like to see Andy step up and have workouts with Gresham, Charles, and our WRs. Build some chemistry with them and lead them.

Do what Atlanta did, be aggressive and get your young QB some help. Give Dalton what he needs to succeed. Dalton isn't elite, he doesn't make people better like Brady or Peyton Manning. He is good enough to be successful if given the right tools and gameplan He just needs more to work with than the elite QBs.

Also, I am still waiting to see this WCO. I read an article about our offense not having an identity. Well this is the 3rd year for Gruden. If we don't figure it out this year, it's time to go back to the AFL. Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:33 AM
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It would also help if we had a playmaker like Wes Welker. Someone who can get YAC.
NE didn't have a deep threat before Randy Moss, at least not a consistent one. Brady is just a great QB.

I blame most of our offensive woes on gameplanning, which falls on the coaching. We need to involve the TE's more. I know Gresham had a poor wildcard game, but we can't let that stop us. I would like to see Andy step up and have workouts with Gresham, Charles, and our WRs. Build some chemistry with them and lead them.

Do what Atlanta did, be aggressive and get your young QB some help. Give Dalton what he needs to succeed. Dalton isn't elite, he doesn't make people better like Brady or Peyton Manning. He is good enough to be successful if given the right tools and gameplan He just needs more to work with than the elite QBs.

Also, I am still waiting to see this WCO. I read an article about our offense not having an identity. Well this is the 3rd year for Gruden. If we don't figure it out this year, it's time to go back to the AFL. Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".
Gruden really dropped the ball in the 2nd half of the season. I don't know if he ran out of ideas, got tired or what but any innovative type of thinking/gameplanning seemed to be totally thrown at the window. While I think Dalton struggled to deliver, Gruden put him in a spot where the offense was totally predictable.

I think Hawkins is a YAC beast but he's a tough target to hit based on his height. I'm short and I've got an inch on Hawk. Love him as a player, though. Gresham is really frustrating. When we need a 3rd down seems to be when he drops a catchable pass. I also hate how he extends the ball with every play...that's a fumble just waiting to happen. He needs to be smarter and more consistent. I like Charles and am interested to see what he can do next year. So we'll see. Hopefully Gruden can pull his head out of his ***, we can add a playmaker at WR, a dynamic back and see if we can get the offense humming again.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:56 PM
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bengals Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.
Funny you should mention the Detmer boys, I went to high school with their dad, Sonny, he moved to Texas with our old High school coach, and I hear he did all right as a high school coach down there.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Originally Posted by D.Boon View Post
What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.
Bree's made the jump from terrible to pretty damn good in his 3rd year.

He went from completing 57% of his passes his first couple of years to completing 65%.

I doubt he just rolled out of bed his third year with greatly improved accuracy.

It likely was an offseason dedicated to his fundamentals.

We will see if Dalton can put in work like that to get better.
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