Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

No matter many % of this and that you throw on it based on however many hours of tape you apparently watched and graded. You're still guessing, cuz you don't what other moving parts of the offense jobs were, you only know what they did. So you can't fairly make a definitive determination on what his ceiling is. Heck, that's an inexact science even for dudes that are getting paid to scout these guys and have more knowledge of all the variables than any of us.

I know this, for my money, a dude in his second year in this offense that can accomplish what he did.....He's a baller, and I expect much better things down the road should we give him the tools needed to succeed.

If we leave him hanging and set him up to fail, then he'll fail, and soon enough everyone will be blaming the QB. Gotta love the way ol' MB wags the dog eh?.......I see right through that garbage though so hopefully this salary floor thing will result in the offense getting what it needs to succeed as a unit while the defense is still strong, this is very doable. We've got a QB who is plenty good enough to go places if so.

I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.

Brees in SD don't count. Steve Young in Tampa don't count. Kurt Warner in NY don't count. Dan Marino having a lifetime rating in the mid 80's don't count. Boomer in 88 compared to Boomer in 91 don't count. Alex Smith pre Harbaugh compared to after Harbaugh don't count.

None of that matters.

No context allowed when discussing QBs.

Regardless of how history has shown us time and again that there is an overwhelming amount of context to consider......

It's still now allowed cuz that's the rules that all the "Bill Walsh's" of your local message boards just made up.

They're gonna give these QBs the ol' "eyeball test", then they're gonna tell ya what it is homey.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Brees in SD don't count. Steve Young in Tampa don't count. Kurt Warner in NY don't count. Dan Marino having a lifetime rating in the mid 80's don't count. Boomer in 88 compared to Boomer in 91 don't count. Alex Smith pre Harbaugh compared to after Harbaugh don't count.

None of that matters.

No context allowed when discussing QBs.

Regardless of how history has shown us time and again that there is an overwhelming amount of context to consider......

It's still now allowed cuz that's the rules that all the "Bill Walsh's" of your local message boards just made up.

They're gonna give these QBs the ol' "eyeball test", then they're gonna tell ya what it is homey.

If you look around the league at the QBs that have the "Elite" tag next to their name they have essentially been in the same system their whole careers.

Yeah Peyton Manning moved but he took the offense he ran his whole career with him.

Roethlisturd has switched OCs a couple of times but the offenses are relatively similar.

I'm not sure how the media defines "Elite".

I look at "Elite" as how much can the play of the QB mask other weaknesses of the team.

You can't pay All-Pros at every position and every year the team will have a weak spot of some sort.

A guy like Mark Sanchez probably can't mask anything, a guy like Tom Brady can probably mask several things.

Maybe they should say "Elite" in said QBs offense?

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by gardner30

If you look around the league at the QBs that have the "Elite" tag next to their name they have essentially been in the same system their whole careers.

Yeah Peyton Manning moved but he took the offense he ran his whole career with him.

Roethlisturd has switched OCs a couple of times but the offenses are relatively similar.

I'm not sure how the media defines "Elite".

I look at "Elite" as how much can the play of the QB mask other weaknesses of the team.

You can't pay All-Pros at every position and every year the team will have a weak spot of some sort.

A guy like Mark Sanchez probably can't mask anything, a guy like Tom Brady can probably mask several things.

Maybe they should say "Elite" in said QBs offense?

My thing with this thread is much less about who is or isn't considered "elite" and more about etching in stone how good a young QB like Dalton has the potential to be based on judgements made of his first two seasons playing for an offense that everyone knows has plenty of issues.

He would have had to play at a much lower level and done so consistently, for me to judge him as harshly as some folks are.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Why? Cuz regardless the cirucmstances you're going to expect the QB to be bad a** and spectacular?

This sort of logic is maddening and it just. never. ends.

No matter how many times over I've shown ya'll the light, ya still don't see it.




You know who else was a good dude with limited arm talent? Steve Young. Check his stats from his Tampa years and get back to me.

What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

[Pezmerga]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Throws of 41+ yards (passer rating in parenthesis)

1. Schaub- 3-4-164-2-0 (156.3)
2. Brees- 4-6-223-2-0 (149.3)
3. Stafford- 6-11-303-2-0 (139.2)
4. Rapist- 3-9-179-2-0 (121.5)
5. Foles- 1-3-44-1-0 (121.5)
6. Griffin- 4-13-246-4-0 (119.4)
7. Bradford- 2-8-101-2-0 (118.8)
8. Weeden- 1-6-62-1-0 (109.7)
9. Hasselbeck- 1-6-30-1-0 (87.5)
10. A.Smith- 1-3-55-0-0 (81.9)
Newton- 4-12-206-0-0 (81.9)
12. Dalton- 2-7-105-1-1 (79.2)
Palmer- 1-4-58-0-0 (79.2)
14. Cutler- 2-8-98-1-1 (78.1)
15. Flacco- 2-16-99-1-0 (73.7)
16. Ryan- 3-10-157-1-1 (72.9)
17. Wilson- 3-11-147-1-3 (69.9)
18. Freeman- 3-12-159-1-2 (67.4)
19. Luck- 2-12-90-1-2 (46.5)
20. Ponder- 1-3-54-0-1 (42.4)
21. Brady- 0-6-0-0-0 (39.6)
Peyton- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
Eli- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Fitzp- 0-4-0-0-0 (39.6)
Cassel- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
Tannehill- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Gabbert- 0-2-0-0-0 (39.6)
Henne- 0-1-0-0-0 (39.6)
29. Romo- 2-12-114-0-2 (27.1)
30. Vick- 2-12-95-0-1 (25.3)
31. Rodgers- 1-6-52-0-1 (23.6)
32. Rivers- 0-4-0-0-1 (0.0)
Sanchez- 0-5-0-0-1 (0.0)
Locker- 0-5-0-0-2 (0.0)

Completion % on throws over 20 yards

1. A.Smith- 47.1%
2. Ryan- 44.4%
3. Hasselbeck- 43.9%
4. Griffin- 41.9%
5. Brees- 41.4%
6. Peyton- 39.7%
7. Rodgers- 39.6%
Newton- 39.6%
9. Eli- 37.7%
10. Freeman- 36.9%
11. Locker- 36.5%
12. Wilson- 34.0%
13. Brady- 33.3%
Tannehill- 33.3%
15. Schaub- 32.6%
Sanchez- 32.6%
17. Flacco- 32.5%
18. Luck- 31.3%
19. Rivers- 31.3%
20. Bradford- 30.9%
21. Henne- 29.4%
Cassel- 29.4%
23. Cutler- 28.8%
Romo- 28.8%
Stafford- 28.8%
26. Vick- 25.6%
27. Dalton- 25.0%
Gabbert- 25.0%
29. Palmer- 22.4%
30. Foles- 22.2%
31. Roeth- 21.6%
Weeden- 21.6%
33. Fitzp- 21.4%
34. Ponder- 16.7%

Notes:

- In 2011, Dalton completed 42.9% of his throws over 20 yards. That would've been the 4th best % this year.

- Why did Dalton's completion % on 21+ yard throws drop from 42.9% last year to 25.0% this year? Perhaps because Jerome Simpson > Binns/Tate/Jones?

- In 2011, Dalton went 3-6-131-2-1 (95.8 passer rating) on throws of 41+ yards. So for his career, he is 5-13-236-3-2 on long bombs, which is very good when compared to his peers.

- Only qualifying QBs were included.

I think these numbers prove that Andy does not have a problem with deep throws. Especially when you look at his % from last year which was outstanding. The difference is obvious. Simpson was a legit #2 that teams had to respect. This year, we've had 4 different #2 wr's, and only one of them made any sort of impact.

As Shake n Blake shows, Dalton is average on deep balls. And he is young enough and still has time to improve. Give him a running game (so we can use play action) and another option downfield, and he will get better.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

As Shake n Blake shows, Dalton is average on deep balls. And he is young enough and still has time to improve. Give him a running game (so we can use play action) and another option downfield, and he will get better.

This is why I hate stats. To insinuate that Dalton is a better deep ball passer than Brady, Ryan, Cutler, Flacco etc. is absurd. To that point are those balls that went 40 yards in the air...and just because it was completed doesnt mean it was a good throw. On a couple of Daltons 'bombs' AJ scorched the coverage and had to wait for the ball. Poor throw. Good Result. There is a flipside to that coin as well. For example, I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well v. Pitt but statistically it was a poor outing. But are you all seriously trying to argue that Dalton is one of the best QB's with deep throws? This list has Brandon Weeden and Nick Foles at the top for FFS.

I'd say the 20+ yards is probably more accurate due to what I'm assuming is a much larger sample size. Just for clarification, are those throws that go 20 yards in the air or could it be a screen that went for 20+? Just curious.

[Pezmerga]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

This is why I hate stats. To insinuate that Dalton is a better deep ball passer than Brady, Ryan, Cutler, Flacco etc. is absurd. To that point are those balls that went 40 yards in the air...and just because it was completed doesnt mean it was a good throw. On a couple of Daltons 'bombs' AJ scorched the coverage and had to wait for the ball. Poor throw. Good Result. There is a flipside to that coin as well. For example, I thought Dalton threw the ball extremely well v. Pitt but statistically it was a poor outing. But are you all seriously trying to argue that Dalton is one of the best QB's with deep throws? This list has Brandon Weeden and Nick Foles at the top for FFS.

I'd say the 20+ yards is probably more accurate due to what I'm assuming is a much larger sample size. Just for clarification, are those throws that go 20 yards in the air or could it be a screen that went for 20+? Just curious.

The flipside works the same. Good throws and bad routes or drops.

I am not sure on the YAC. Shake n Blake believes it is through the air, because the numbers would probably be higher for some QBs if they included YAC.

That is speculation though.

Still, I don't think he is awful on deep throws. He isn't the best, but I don't think he needs to be.
I think we need to start doing what New England did to make up for lack of a dynamic RB and doing screens and Dump off passes. Dink and Dunk and give that defense a rest!

Or, draft a better RB and get the running game going.

Oh and I agree. I would be curious to see the 20+ yards throws. I'd also like to see how many drops he had on long throws.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

The flipside works the same. Good throws and bad routes or drops.

I am not sure on the YAC. Shake n Blake believes it is through the air, because the numbers would probably be higher for some QBs if they included YAC.

That is speculation though.

Still, I don't think he is awful on deep throws. He isn't the best, but I don't think he needs to be.
I think we need to start doing what New England did to make up for lack of a dynamic RB and doing screens and Dump off passes. Dink and Dunk and give that defense a rest!

Or, draft a better RB and get the running game going.

Oh and I agree. I would be curious to see the 20+ yards throws. I'd also like to see how many drops he had on long throws.

I think we try to do this...but because we have no deep or intermediate game it doesn't work. We saw this at the end of the season when defenses seemed to figure out how to play the Bengals. You have DB's just sitting on the underneath stuff bc they know the offense struggles with throwing the ball 15+ yards to anyone not named AJ Green. So IMO, a deep and intermediate game opens everything up (run game, screen). That's why when we tried to run screens v. the Texans they were a disaster v. when NE does it they succeed. It's because the defense has to defend the whole field. So I think in theory you are correct...but in reality without the other parts of the passing game posing some sort of threat dinking and dunking down the field is not realistic.

To be clear, though. I think Dalton should get another year. I think we should draft a WR fairly early (I like DeAndre Hopkins). With Sanu and Jones having another year under the belt and a guy like Hopkins opposite AJ we'll see what's what.

[Pezmerga]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I think we try to do this...but because we have no deep or intermediate game it doesn't work. We saw this at the end of the season when defenses seemed to figure out how to play the Bengals. You have DB's just sitting on the underneath stuff bc they know the offense struggles with throwing the ball 15+ yards to anyone not named AJ Green. So IMO, a deep and intermediate game opens everything up (run game, screen). That's why when we tried to run screens v. the Texans they were a disaster v. when NE does it they succeed. It's because the defense has to defend the whole field. So I think in theory you are correct...but in reality without the other parts of the passing game posing some sort of threat dinking and dunking down the field is not realistic.

To be clear, though. I think Dalton should get another year. I think we should draft a WR fairly early (I like DeAndre Hopkins). With Sanu and Jones having another year under the belt and a guy like Hopkins opposite AJ we'll see what's what.

It would also help if we had a playmaker like Wes Welker. Someone who can get YAC.
NE didn't have a deep threat before Randy Moss, at least not a consistent one. Brady is just a great QB.

I blame most of our offensive woes on gameplanning, which falls on the coaching. We need to involve the TE's more. I know Gresham had a poor wildcard game, but we can't let that stop us. I would like to see Andy step up and have workouts with Gresham, Charles, and our WRs. Build some chemistry with them and lead them.

Do what Atlanta did, be aggressive and get your young QB some help. Give Dalton what he needs to succeed. Dalton isn't elite, he doesn't make people better like Brady or Peyton Manning. He is good enough to be successful if given the right tools and gameplan He just needs more to work with than the elite QBs.

Also, I am still waiting to see this WCO. I read an article about our offense not having an identity. Well this is the 3rd year for Gruden. If we don't figure it out this year, it's time to go back to the AFL. Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

It would also help if we had a playmaker like Wes Welker. Someone who can get YAC.
NE didn't have a deep threat before Randy Moss, at least not a consistent one. Brady is just a great QB.

I blame most of our offensive woes on gameplanning, which falls on the coaching. We need to involve the TE's more. I know Gresham had a poor wildcard game, but we can't let that stop us. I would like to see Andy step up and have workouts with Gresham, Charles, and our WRs. Build some chemistry with them and lead them.

Do what Atlanta did, be aggressive and get your young QB some help. Give Dalton what he needs to succeed. Dalton isn't elite, he doesn't make people better like Brady or Peyton Manning. He is good enough to be successful if given the right tools and gameplan He just needs more to work with than the elite QBs.

Also, I am still waiting to see this WCO. I read an article about our offense not having an identity. Well this is the 3rd year for Gruden. If we don't figure it out this year, it's time to go back to the AFL. Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".

Gruden really dropped the ball in the 2nd half of the season. I don't know if he ran out of ideas, got tired or what but any innovative type of thinking/gameplanning seemed to be totally thrown at the window. While I think Dalton struggled to deliver, Gruden put him in a spot where the offense was totally predictable.

I think Hawkins is a YAC beast but he's a tough target to hit based on his height. I'm short and I've got an inch on Hawk. Love him as a player, though. Gresham is really frustrating. When we need a 3rd down seems to be when he drops a catchable pass. I also hate how he extends the ball with every play...that's a fumble just waiting to happen. He needs to be smarter and more consistent. I like Charles and am interested to see what he can do next year. So we'll see. Hopefully Gruden can pull his head out of his ***, we can add a playmaker at WR, a dynamic back and see if we can get the offense humming again.

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

Funny you should mention the Detmer boys, I went to high school with their dad, Sonny, he moved to Texas with our old High school coach, and I hear he did all right as a high school coach down there.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

Bree's made the jump from terrible to pretty damn good in his 3rd year.

He went from completing 57% of his passes his first couple of years to completing 65%.

I doubt he just rolled out of bed his third year with greatly improved accuracy.

It likely was an offseason dedicated to his fundamentals.

We will see if Dalton can put in work like that to get better.

[BengalYankee]

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Pezmerga

Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.

His intermediate accuracy is good, his deep average....at this point. Like I've been trying to tell you guys, as long as the offense is AJ or bust the windows he's working with will be squeezed more tightly. In a more balanced attack with other receiving threats those windows will get bigger and that accuracy could well get much better as he is able to target his throws more directly without fear of ints.

All those dudes you mentioned are straight up scrubs except for Kitna and to a lesser degree, Batch, when he was much younger. Bringing them up is beyond ridiculous. Dalton, in a very limited offense with an as yet unproven OC (all we know for sure is that he's better than Brat) has more than proven himself MUCH better than all those guys. And considering the limits of the talent around him, that was no small feat. A lesser QB would quickly have gone down the same road as all those bums in the same situation.

Also, we're not talking about the 50's bud. Young was the best QB of the early to mid 90's and he couldn't throw the ball 60 yards. He was a good scrambler but he was a lot closer to Dalton mobility wise than he was to a CK who runs what, a 4.4. That's awesome, but that don't mean that Dalton can't get the job done.

Also, I never questioned Brees arm strength but it is worth noting that SD let him go and then he got with probably the best offensive coach in the league and THEN he became a stud, yet another example ya'll won't acknowledge.

I don't wanna be mean or anything, but dam, I think there's a certain "madden generation" factor poppin off here. It's all or nothing with you guys, and it's all about the QB, the dude who's winning the SB right now or you stink. No patience, no perspective, no context, just tunnel vision for what appears to be "the new sexy QB".

Well, I'm tellin ya sonny ......Just wait, the other pieces of a team are far more important than you guys are allowing for.

You do realize that the QB is more reliant on the pieces around him than any other position in team sports right??? You realize that time and again, the same QBs have looked terrible at one time and great at others?? I'm not talking about single games either, I'm talking about good years to bad years, good stretches of their career to bad stretches.

That's a fact that can't be denied and the examples are endless but they go unacknowledged becuz to acknowledge them would completely derail your whole "our QB must stink if we don't win the SB thought process".

The Detmers?? Really?? Dalton is a firmly established starting QB on a team that has made the playoffs in both his years here. He went for an 80 rating as a rookie 87 this year. Marino's lifetime rating was 87, you realize that?? It's an efficiency rating and all relative so don't try and put it off on "oh them were the olden days".

It is what it is, Dalton is clearly way better than the dudes you're trying to compare him to and you're talking like those defending him are the crazy ones.

Curtis Painter, really???

And also, Mallet is nothing like CK, no mobility whatsoever. Without a fantastic OLine that dude won't do squat in this league, he can't move at all.

[Go Cards]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

His intermediate accuracy is good, his deep average....at this point. Like I've been trying to tell you guys, as long as the offense is AJ or bust the windows he's working with will be squeezed more tightly. In a more balanced attack with other receiving threats those windows will get bigger and that accuracy could well get much better as he is able to target his throws more directly without fear of ints.

All those dudes you mentioned are straight up scrubs except for Kitna and to a lesser degree, Batch, when he was much younger. Bringing them up is beyond ridiculous. Dalton, in a very limited offense with an as yet unproven OC (all we know for sure is that he's better than Brat) has more than proven himself MUCH better than all those guys. And considering the limits of the talent around him, that was no small feat. A lesser QB would quickly have gone down the same road as all those bums in the same situation.

Also, we're not talking about the 50's bud. Young was the best QB of the early to mid 90's and he couldn't throw the ball 60 yards. He was a good scrambler but he was a lot closer to Dalton mobility wise than he was to a CK who runs what, a 4.4. That's awesome, but that don't mean that Dalton can't get the job done.

Also, I never questioned Brees arm strength but it is worth noting that SD let him go and then he got with probably the best offensive coach in the league and THEN he became a stud, yet another example ya'll won't acknowledge.

I don't wanna be mean or anything, but dam, I think there's a certain "madden generation" factor poppin off here. It's all or nothing with you guys, and it's all about the QB, the dude who's winning the SB right now or you stink. No patience, no perspective, no context, just tunnel vision for what appears to be "the new sexy QB".

Well, I'm tellin ya sonny ......Just wait, the other pieces of a team are far more important than you guys are allowing for.

You do realize that the QB is more reliant on the pieces around him than any other position in team sports right??? You realize that time and again, the same QBs have looked terrible at one time and great at others?? I'm not talking about single games either, I'm talking about good years to bad years, good stretches of their career to bad stretches.

That's a fact that can't be denied and the examples are endless but they go unacknowledged becuz to acknowledge them would completely derail your whole "our QB must stink if we don't win the SB thought process".

The Detmers?? Really?? Dalton is a firmly established starting QB on a team that has made the playoffs in both his years here. He went for an 80 rating as a rookie 87 this year. Marino's lifetime rating was 87, you realize that?? It's an efficiency rating and all relative so don't try and put it off on "oh them were the olden days".

It is what it is, Dalton is clearly way better than the dudes you're trying to compare him to and you're talking like those defending him are the crazy ones.

Curtis Painter, really???

And also, Mallet is nothing like CK, no mobility whatsoever. Without a fantastic OLine that dude won't do squat in this league, he can't move at all.

Agree with this entire thread except comparing Steve Youngs mobility to Daltons. They may be similar in 40 times, personally do not know.

But Steve Young would have been drafted as a RB if he was not such a great QB according to scouts, and been a darn good one too, imo.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

What? I went away from Jungle Noise for two days and this stinkin' thread is still going on? Unbelievable!

Cincinnati drafted Andy Dalton.

San Francisco drafted Colin Kaepernick.

Both of these moves were the correct ones for their respective teams.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Go Cards

Agree with this entire thread except comparing Steve Youngs mobility to Daltons. They may be similar in 40 times, personally do not know.

But Steve Young would have been drafted as a RB if he was not such a great QB according to scouts, and been a darn good one too, imo.

Perhaps as a young fella, he was faster when he was putting up a 65 rating in Tampa. In his years in San Fran, he'd take off on ya, but his speed was nowhere near the blazing variety that CK has. That's why I said, speed wise, he was closer to Dalton although he was definitely a better overall runner. At the same time, it's not like Dalton isn't a decent runner, he just needs to pick his spots when to take off better.

[THE PISTONS]

Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/

But they aren't this amazing pass blocking line though; they aren't even in the top 10 (11th).

Run blocking, they are phenomenally adept, arguably the best ever run blocking line, but pass bocking guys are giving them way too much credit.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/

Whooooo.....umm....damn, what's that word.. Oh yeah
Who cares?

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Whooooo.....umm....damn, what's that word.. Oh yeah
Who cares?

Apparantly the people in the other 11 pages of this thread.

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by gardner30

I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.

The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.

[Housh]

Just to let this thread regulars know.....If CK wins the SB or not that alone wont be enough to get on a high horse and say either is better or worse. Idc if CK has the worst game ever, continue to take full body of work and other factors to mind when debating. I just dont want some kids busting in this thread if SF wins yelling "SF won the SB so CK is better than Dalton!!!!" Like NO, the 49ers are better than the Bengals. On the flipside if they lose dont come in here like "Yep they lost CK is trash". Because obviously that isnt true