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  #1  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:55 AM
chasf316 chasf316 is offline
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bengals Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

Looking at how Hartline measures up against several of the other top-tier F.A. WRs, I just don't see how so many posts support dropping any significant cash in signing Hartline...

First off, Hartline has hinted his desire to stay in Miami, but most importantly, his numbers do NOT indicate that he would be a good fit in Cincy. My roommate is a huge 'Fins fan, so I am subjected to watching their games. Hartline doesn't even impress a Dolphin fan of 30 years! He'd rather the team let him walk. One thousand yd. season does not make a viable #2 WR. Hartline doesn't even smell the endzone. One, count 'em, one touchdown last year. The same can be said for the previous two seasons. He has 3 TDs total in last three seasons!

I'll post his, Wallace's, and Bowe's stats, so you can make the comparison. But I'll even argue that Hartline is playing out of position, and should be a slot WR! He's more suited for that spot. And I'll continue to develop Sanu's skills over wasting valuable cap money on Hartline. Heck, Sanu had 4 TDs in 9 games.

Point is...Hartline may not demand as much as Bowe or Wallace, but the difference won't be vast. If you're going to spend in FA, place it on a player that will draw coverage from AJ. Both Bowe and Wallace will do that, and Wallace is durable...missed only 1 game in last 4 seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...brian-hartline

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...67/dwayne-bowe

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...1/mike-wallace
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:02 AM
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bengals Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
Looking at how Hartline measures up against several of the other top-tier F.A. WRs, I just don't see how so many posts support dropping any significant cash in signing Hartline...

First off, Hartline has hinted his desire to stay in Miami, but most importantly, his numbers do NOT indicate that he would be a good fit in Cincy. My roommate is a huge 'Fins fan, so I am subjected to watching their games. Hartline doesn't even impress a Dolphin fan of 30 years! He'd rather the team let him walk. One thousand yd. season does not make a viable #2 WR. Hartline doesn't even smell the endzone. One, count 'em, one touchdown last year. The same can be said for the previous two seasons. He has 3 TDs total in last three seasons!

I'll post his, Wallace's, and Bowe's stats, so you can make the comparison. But I'll even argue that Hartline is playing out of position, and should be a slot WR! He's more suited for that spot. And I'll continue to develop Sanu's skills over wasting valuable cap money on Hartline. Heck, Sanu had 4 TDs in 9 games.

Point is...Hartline may not demand as much as Bowe or Wallace, but the difference won't be vast. If you're going to spend in FA, place it on a player that will draw coverage from AJ. Both Bowe and Wallace will do that, and Wallace is durable...missed only 1 game in last 4 seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...brian-hartline

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...67/dwayne-bowe

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...1/mike-wallace
If your friend would like to see Miami let Hartline walk then I would seriously question his knowledge of the game.

Wallace and Bowe - What do many not get about guys like these? I guarantee they are not looking to be second fiddle to anyone. Ego in the NFL is as a deciding factor as cash. These type guys are looking to be the man. Wallace is a prime example. He is on a team with a very good QB and a team that is a constant contender yet he is unhappy. Why is that?

Sure you may be looking for someone to draw coverage from AJ but just as importantly if not more importantly you are looking for production when that coverage is on AJ. Hartline is a player that has to be covered period. He is a better compliment option IMO than a Bowe or Wallace as he is the type of guy that understands being a role player.

While Hartline may have expressed that he would like to stay in Miami that could very well be a politically correct answer by him. Remember he is an Ohio boy.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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If your friend would like to see Miami let Hartline walk then I would seriously question his knowledge of the game.

Wallace and Bowe - What do many not get about guys like these? I guarantee they are not looking to be second fiddle to anyone. Ego in the NFL is as a deciding factor as cash. These type guys are looking to be the man. Wallace is a prime example. He is on a team with a very good QB and a team that is a constant contender yet he is unhappy. Why is that?

Sure you may be looking for someone to draw coverage from AJ but just as importantly if not more importantly you are looking for production when that coverage is on AJ. Hartline is a player that has to be covered period. He is a better compliment option IMO than a Bowe or Wallace as he is the type of guy that understands being a role player.

While Hartline may have expressed that he would like to stay in Miami that could very well be a politically correct answer by him. Remember he is an Ohio boy.
Friend would rather see Hartline walk in favor of signing Bowe or Wallace...my stink with Hartline is that he can't separate in the redzone...Miami has practiced moving him around in that spot, and he still fails at separation...I'm assuming you've noted the Bengals' issues in the redzone???

This ego thing is way overplayed...who wouldn't want to play alongside a talented WR that will draw attention...this is all spin-doctoring...I'm a #1 and I wanted to be viewed as such...ridiculous! If I'm playing across from AJ, I'm thinking he's gonna be doubled, which means I'm single-covered and getting more targets!...Sheesh, Wallace plays with Antonio Brown and their stats were almost identical last season. Another thing, if Wallace had an ego, it may have been humbled by the lack of interest teams had in sacrificing a #1 for him last off-season.

We have no real clue to an individual's ego...they change frequently so you cannot guarantee anything, me...I just watch how they perform on the field...Wallace/Bowe > Hartline no matter how you slice it.

Last edited by chasf316; 01-25-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

We do not need two #1 recievers and can not tie up two huge contracts for that position.This makes Hartline a better fit than Wallace.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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We do not need two #1 recievers and can not tie up two huge contracts for that position.This makes Hartline a better fit than Wallace.
Hartline thinks he's a #1, thus his agent is gonna go after #1 money, so, Hartline is looking for 8+mil...Wallace/Bowe will dictate 9.5...reasonable & digestable difference...subsequently, this goes back to first reply about #1 ego versus playing in #2 spot

However, this isn't just a cash/cap value difference...Wallace is a viable #2

Additionally, if you're gonna use the dollar amount angle...players like Devery Henderson, Dominque Hixon, Mo. Massaquoi make more sense than Hartline...insertable #2's and they'll come much cheaper than Hartline.

Last edited by chasf316; 01-25-2013 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
Hartline thinks he's a #1, thus his agent is gonna go after #1 money, so, Hartline is looking for 8+mil...Wallace/Bowe will dictate 9.5...reasonable & digestable difference...subsequently, this goes back to first reply about #1 ego versus playing in #2 spot

However, this isn't just a cash/cap value difference...Wallace is a viable #2

Additionally, if you're gonna use the dollar amount angle...players like Devery Henderson, Dominque Hixon, Mo. Massaquoi make more sense than Hartline...insertable #2's and they'll come much cheaper than Hartline.
And when Hartline doesn't get offered 8+ million, he'll be offered a more reasonable, #2 WR salary.

Not saying the Bengals will get him but just because an agent is going to ask for a crazy deal doesn't guarantee a suitor at his price.

And I agree with you about Henderson and Hixon.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

Dwayne Bowe isn't going anywhere, Andy Reid hasn't had a receiver as talented as him since TO.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by Who Dey Time View Post
And when Hartline doesn't get offered 8+ million, he'll be offered a more reasonable, #2 WR salary.

Not saying the Bengals will get him but just because an agent is going to ask for a crazy deal doesn't guarantee a suitor at his price.

And I agree with you about Henderson and Hixon.
This is how I see the contracts going in millions per year:

11+ - Bowe, Wallace, Welker

7+ - Hartline, Amendola

Those who think Hartline and Amendola are slot guys need to watch Welker play.

4+ - Hixon, Henderson, Massoquoi

So, a huge difference between top, mids and bottom
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:50 PM
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bengals Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
Hartline thinks he's a #1, thus his agent is gonna go after #1 money, so, Hartline is looking for 8+mil...Wallace/Bowe will dictate 9.5...reasonable & digestable difference...subsequently, this goes back to first reply about #1 ego versus playing in #2 spot

However, this isn't just a cash/cap value difference...Wallace is a viable #2

Additionally, if you're gonna use the dollar amount angle...players like Devery Henderson, Dominque Hixon, Mo. Massaquoi make more sense than Hartline...insertable #2's and they'll come much cheaper than Hartline.
Pretty sure Hartline is a smart enough young man to understand he was running as the #1 by default. I would think fans would understand it as well.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Pretty sure Hartline is a smart enough young man to understand he was running as the #1 by default. I would think fans would understand it as well.
Hartline had 1000 receiving yards running as a number one even though he is more suited as a number two. He was getting double teams last year. My guess, if he played opposite AJ Green and with Gresham no team could double team him. I like both Amendola and Hartline. I think both would be great options for immediate upgrade while Sanu and Jones gain valuable experience.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Hartline had 1000 receiving yards running as a number one even though he is more suited as a number two. He was getting double teams last year. My guess, if he played opposite AJ Green and with Gresham no team could double team him. I like both Amendola and Hartline. I think both would be great options for immediate upgrade while Sanu and Jones gain valuable experience.
Hartline is a lot like Stevie Johnson in Buffalo, a true #2 receiver forced to be a #1, both have produced as a number one but would be better as a #2. Johnson signed a 5 year $36.25 Million dollar deal, I could see Hartline getting a similar deal.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Hartline is a lot like Stevie Johnson in Buffalo, a true #2 receiver forced to be a #1, both have produced as a number one but would be better as a #2. Johnson signed a 5 year $36.25 Million dollar deal, I could see Hartline getting a similar deal.
He may, but I doubt it. Stevie Johnson has always ben considered a number one and had more of a one year track record than Hartline when he got the big contract.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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He may, but I doubt it. Stevie Johnson has always ben considered a number one and had more of a one year track record than Hartline when he got the big contract.
I agree. Steve Johnson had 3 straight 1000 yard seasons with 23 tds during that stretch. He's been more productive than Hartline. Also, Hartline had that huge game last year where he had 253 yards and a score. In the other 15 games, he only had 830 yards and 0 scores. In his other 3 seasons, he only had 500-600 yards and maybe 1 td.

I'm not trying to knock Hartline, just saying he won't get what Steve did. Think a little lower. Maybe 4 years/25 million.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

Bowe, Wallace, Jennings, Hartline

That's the order of my wishlist right now. Honestly, I'm not too worried about money for any of the because of our ridiculous amount of cap space right now. If we shell out a nice signing bonus we won't have to carry the burden of a HUGE cap number in the future and we have the room to do that this year.

#1 schumberone. If the player is good enough he will be thrilled to have a player opposite him that will keep defenses honest. I really want a guy opposite AJ who would be a #1 WR on another team. A guy who would normally demand double teams on his own. I want a Roddy White to pair with our Julio Jones. Look at what Boldin has done next to Fitzgerald and Torrey Smith...then look at our games where there are always AT LEAST 2 CBs around AJ, sometimes 3.

I don't want a rookie WR. Not now. We have Sanu and Jones waiting in the wings, learning and growing. The rule of thumb is that it takes 3 years to develop a NFL receiver. We aren't at that point right now, we are at the point where we add a few pieces to help us win.

Let's sign the best player possible to line up opposite AJ and make defenses tremble.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Friend would rather see Hartline walk in favor of signing Bowe or Wallace...my stink with Hartline is that he can't separate in the redzone...Miami has practiced moving him around in that spot, and he still fails at separation...I'm assuming you've noted the Bengals' issues in the redzone???

This ego thing is way overplayed...who wouldn't want to play alongside a talented WR that will draw attention...this is all spin-doctoring...I'm a #1 and I wanted to be viewed as such...ridiculous! If I'm playing across from AJ, I'm thinking he's gonna be doubled, which means I'm single-covered and getting more targets!...Sheesh, Wallace plays with Antonio Brown and their stats were almost identical last season. Another thing, if Wallace had an ego, it may have been humbled by the lack of interest teams had in sacrificing a #1 for him last off-season.

We have no real clue to an individual's ego...they change frequently so you cannot guarantee anything, me...I just watch how they perform on the field...Wallace/Bowe > Hartline no matter how you slice it.

Of course your friend would. Hartline is a #2 WR, and Dolphins need one. Bengals already have AJ Green. So Hartline compliments him. Dolphins don't have a true receiving threat.

Ummm, Wallace wanted "Fitzgerald like money" from the Steelers and he held out. Wallace is a me first guy. And you saw how well he did this season. Very inconsistent. He wants money, and some team is going to give him money he doesn't deserve. Yes, he has TDs this season, but he wants to be "the guy". That's obvious to anyone.

Mike Wallace wants Larry Ftizgerald type money. Antonio Brown is okay with getting Mike Wallace type money. Think about it.

Well, if you're going by what you see on the field, then shouldn't the Bengals have kept TO? I mean, he played well on the field. And his ego could have changed. Or even give Titus Young a chance, his ego could change too.

Sorry, but no to Wallace. And Bowe? Well, I do like him, but again, depends on price and whatnot.

But I take Hartline over Wallace. Not talent level, but compliment wise and also because of the team chemistry. Because Mike Wallace will be taking money from some of our young players if he gets what he wants.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by Luvnit2 View Post
This is how I see the contracts going in millions per year:

11+ - Bowe, Wallace, Welker

7+ - Hartline, Amendola

Those who think Hartline and Amendola are slot guys need to watch Welker play.

4+ - Hixon, Henderson, Massoquoi

So, a huge difference between top, mids and bottom
I do not think these will be the numbers, Bowe and Welker made 9 mil last year as Franchise tags, signing a 4 year deal I see the cap hit at 7-9 mil depending on demand driving up the price. I just can not see them getting top 5 money for their position, top 3 last year were:

Vincent Jackson - 15
Fitzgerald - 13
Megatron - 11
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
Hartline thinks he's a #1, thus his agent is gonna go after #1 money, so, Hartline is looking for 8+mil...Wallace/Bowe will dictate 9.5...reasonable & digestable difference...subsequently, this goes back to first reply about #1 ego versus playing in #2 spot

However, this isn't just a cash/cap value difference...Wallace is a viable #2

Additionally, if you're gonna use the dollar amount angle...players like Devery Henderson, Dominque Hixon, Mo. Massaquoi make more sense than Hartline...insertable #2's and they'll come much cheaper than Hartline.
News flash.. Hartline isnt going to get paid that much. He'll be lucky to see 5 million a year.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
Hartline thinks he's a #1, thus his agent is gonna go after #1 money, so, Hartline is looking for 8+mil...Wallace/Bowe will dictate 9.5...reasonable & digestable difference...subsequently, this goes back to first reply about #1 ego versus playing in #2 spot

However, this isn't just a cash/cap value difference...Wallace is a viable #2

Additionally, if you're gonna use the dollar amount angle...players like Devery Henderson, Dominque Hixon, Mo. Massaquoi make more sense than Hartline...insertable #2's and they'll come much cheaper than Hartline.
Henderson and Massaquoi are krap, so is Hixon. Hartline is clearly better than those dudes. If you want two #1 type guys, you'll probably have to draft the other one like Atlanta did. Remains to be seen if they'll be able to keep both White and Jones down the road without seriously neglecting other parts of the team.

If Hartline thinks he's a #1, he's mistaken, I think he could be a high end #2, especially when paired with a guy like AJ.

Hartline would be a very solid signing for this team.

I'd love to get Bowe, but even if MB were prone to spend all the way to the cap, it may not be doable even then.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Of course your friend would. Hartline is a #2 WR, and Dolphins need one. Bengals already have AJ Green. So Hartline compliments him. Dolphins don't have a true receiving threat.

Ummm, Wallace wanted "Fitzgerald like money" from the Steelers and he held out. Wallace is a me first guy. And you saw how well he did this season. Very inconsistent. He wants money, and some team is going to give him money he doesn't deserve. Yes, he has TDs this season, but he wants to be "the guy". That's obvious to anyone.

Mike Wallace wants Larry Ftizgerald type money. Antonio Brown is okay with getting Mike Wallace type money. Think about it.

Well, if you're going by what you see on the field, then shouldn't the Bengals have kept TO? I mean, he played well on the field. And his ego could have changed. Or even give Titus Young a chance, his ego could change too.

Sorry, but no to Wallace. And Bowe? Well, I do like him, but again, depends on price and whatnot.

But I take Hartline over Wallace. Not talent level, but compliment wise and also because of the team chemistry. Because Mike Wallace will be taking money from some of our young players if he gets what he wants.
I'd pay Wallace all of our cap space in a bonus just as a FU to the Steelers.

Not really but I do think we can use some of our extravagant cap number to structure a deal with an elite WR to pair with AJ that won't handicap us for future extensions.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by Luvnit2 View Post
This is how I see the contracts going in millions per year:

11+ - Bowe, Wallace, Welker

7+ - Hartline, Amendola

Those who think Hartline and Amendola are slot guys need to watch Welker play.

4+ - Hixon, Henderson, Massoquoi

So, a huge difference between top, mids and bottom
Remember when welker Played for miami? He didn't do much there. It would be funny if NE lets welker walk and goes after the much younger hartline
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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I do not think these will be the numbers, Bowe and Welker made 9 mil last year as Franchise tags, signing a 4 year deal I see the cap hit at 7-9 mil depending on demand driving up the price. I just can not see them getting top 5 money for their position, top 3 last year were:

Vincent Jackson - 15
Fitzgerald - 13
Megatron - 11
Fitzgerald and Megatron on working on old contracts. Vincent Jackson is working on the most recent contract. The rookie pool being smaller in time will push more money to the veterans.

Welker played on the franchise tag because he wanted more money. They tag him again this year and he gets paid around 11 million. WE will find out if he signs for 10+ million soon or wants more than 11 million.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Remember when welker Played for miami? He didn't do much there. It would be funny if NE lets welker walk and goes after the much younger hartline
Would not surprise me a bit
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

He knows how to get open, and that's pretty worth it considering that's all the team needs across from AJ. Signing a big name is not worth it when the team has Marvin and Sanu ready to play. However, if the team sees a WR as a need, Hartline makes fiscal enough sense in addition to solid play. You don't need an all star receiving corp, just enough to be in the right area for the QB
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by Luvnit2 View Post
This is how I see the contracts going in millions per year:

11+ - Bowe, Wallace, Welker

7+ - Hartline, Amendola

Those who think Hartline and Amendola are slot guys need to watch Welker play.

4+ - Hixon, Henderson, Massoquoi

So, a huge difference between top, mids and bottom
Amendola is 100% a slot man. Anyone who thinks Hartline is a slot receiver only thinks that because he is white.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

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Originally Posted by eoxyod View Post
He knows how to get open, and that's pretty worth it considering that's all the team needs across from AJ. Signing a big name is not worth it when the team has Marvin and Sanu ready to play. However, if the team sees a WR as a need, Hartline makes fiscal enough sense in addition to solid play. You don't need an all star receiving corp, just enough to be in the right area for the QB
But if you have an all star receiving corps, your QB has a pretty good chance to be better too.

Just one time, I want to know "he'll be good enough" and making something outa nothing isn't enough with this team
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