Don't understand the interest in Hartline over other F.A. WRs

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by McC

But if you have an all star receiving corps, your QB has a pretty good chance to be better too.

Just one time, I want to know "he'll be good enough" and making something outa nothing isn't enough with this team

Having an al star receiving corp isn't worth the money though. If they develop there, it's fine. It's actually very nice. But WR isn't a valuable enough position to warrant good money spent on it (Except for elite guys)

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Having an al star receiving corp isn't worth the money though. If they develop there, it's fine. It's actually very nice. But WR isn't a valuable enough position to warrant good money spent on it (Except for elite guys)

I agree, spending too much money on the WR position only cripples the teams ability to keep quality players at other positions. Besides, shiny new, budding WR stars come out in the draft every year.

[RedBengal9]

I like the dude, his # of catches before this year does make me a bit nervous though:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...brian-hartline

Before his 74 catches this year his totals were:
2009-31
2010-43
2011-35

He also only has 6 total TDs in his career, having only 1 every year since 09. Guy is young and could have some skill for the right price...but I still think he's just a compliment to the guys we currently have, and will serve only as an upgrade to Tate/Binns.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Amendola is 100% a slot man. Anyone who thinks Hartline is a slot receiver only thinks that because he is white.

Wait...What? what in the world does white have to do with anything? TJ played best when in slot, Boldin's having a heck of a postseason in the slot...

I'll cheer for Hartline if he's wearing the stripes, and I'll gladly eat crow if he's worth the contract, but I've watched him closely for last 4 years and right now doesn't show ANYTHING on film that contradicts him being a liability in the redzone...I'm a Buckeye fan too, but some of us here need to stop looking at former OSU players with buckeye-colored glasses on.

If NE signs him, it'll be in the range of 7mil per or a 10mil upfront

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by chasf316

Wait...What? what in the world does white have to do with anything? TJ played best when in slot, Boldin's having a heck of a postseason in the slot...

I'll cheer for Hartline if he's wearing the stripes, and I'll gladly eat crow if he's worth the contract, but I've watched him closely for last 4 years and right now doesn't show ANYTHING on film that contradicts him being a liability in the redzone...I'm a Buckeye fan too, but some of us here need to stop looking at former OSU players with buckeye-colored glasses on.

If NE signs him, it'll be in the range of 7mil per or a 10mil upfront

That's fine, he doesn't need to be part of the Red Zone package. We have a Red Zone monster, his name is Mohammed Sanu, we have another named AJ Green, and even a 3rd (when he shows up) named Jermain Gresham.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

That's fine, he doesn't need to be part of the Red Zone package. We have a Red Zone monster, his name is Mohammed Sanu, we have another named AJ Green, and even a 3rd (when he shows up) named Jermain Gresham.

OK...so you think the MB is gonna pay 5-7 mil for a WR and watch him sitting on the bench during an offensive-redzone-possession.

You haven't really been watching the Bengals too closely if you truly believe that's gonna happen...it's all hands on deck, especially the ones getting paid the most!

Until Gresham softens up those stone hands, I really wouldn't consider him a strong redzone threat yet

Don't you want a #2 WR that keeps us from settling for FGs?

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by chasf316

OK...so you think the MB is gonna pay 5-7 mil for a WR and watch him sitting on the bench during an offensive-redzone-possession.

You haven't really been watching the Bengals too closely if you truly believe that's gonna happen...it's all hands on deck, especially the ones getting paid the most!

Until Gresham softens up those stone hands, I really wouldn't consider him a strong redzone threat yet

Don't you want a #2 WR that keeps us from settling for FGs?

Smart coaches have personnel packages for specific situations. I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20. Need to get something from the entire roster..

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

Smart coaches have personnel packages for specific situations. I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20. Need to get something from the entire roster..

Your statement supports my argument..."I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20"...slight problem with that thought, you don't sign the paychecks...and if you had, you would certainly want more productivity from your higher-salaried players...otherwise it's not cost-effective and a poor judgment in assembling your team...and that is the entire point here...

I'd rather NOT sign a F.A. WR and continue to develop Sanu and Jones than to absorb a 5-7mil contract that has holes in it, such as Hartline's inability to score.

Not to be a jerk, but do you hear what you're saying? "I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20." I'm glad you're not managing my business, much less the Bengals!

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by chasf316

Your statement supports my argument..."I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20"...slight problem with that thought, you don't sign the paychecks...and if you had, you would certainly want more productivity from your higher-salaried players...otherwise it's not cost-effective and a poor judgment in assembling your team...and that is the entire point here...

I'd rather NOT sign a F.A. WR and continue to develop Sanu and Jones than to absorb a 5-7mil contract that has holes in it, such as Hartline's inability to score.

Not to be a jerk, but do you hear what you're saying? "I have no problem with using an all purpose WR2 between the 20's, and bringing in the Red Zone package if we don't score from outside the 20." I'm glad you're not managing my business, much less the Bengals!

I'm actually in favor of going with what we have (no WRs in my mock draft). I like Sanu, a lot, believe that he will prove to be an asset to this team. I also like Jones, I thought he did fairly well for a late round rookie.

But, this thread was about Hartline. I enjoy exploring possibilities with this team as much as the next fan, so I joined the discussion. I think Hartline would be a nice addition to the team. I do not think that he will command top money in FA, but rather somewhere in the 3.5-4M range. That is not too much, in my opinion.

[Carolinabengalfanguy]

Well I wouldn't mind signing Wallace, but he wanted Larry Fitzgerald money and I said last offseason he was nothing more than a speedy wide receiver not even close to Larry's ability. I wouldn't spend a ton of money on him either it would have to be an economical deal and I know some idiot owner will sign him to a bigger contract than he deserves.

Dwayne Bowe on the other hand has always seemed like he would make a great #2 option across from AJ Green, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Bowe got a bigger contract than Wallace. He'd be my favorite target of a FA WR, but once again it'd have to be an economical contract with Green, Atkins, Smith, Dunlap, and Johnson all hopefully about to sign somewhat big contracts.

Hartline I don't like so much, but I guess would be an okay signing, but his low TD production and one year production means it'd have to be a cheap contract plus I'm fine with Jones and Sanu over him.

In the end we are looking at this kind of money potentially over the next two years being dished out so we have to be smart about our outside FA money spent.

A.J. Green - Potentially a $100 million contract anything less would be an absolute steal by Mike Brown (not that I approve of any non-QB giant contracts as I'd like to see a max salary cap made) as the market is trending.

Atkins - Somewhere around $60-80 million. If we can get him on the low end of that scale that would be awesome

Smith - Honestly I think we get a good deal made with him somewhere in the $30-60 million range which isn't bad for his protection the last two years.

Dunlap - He's inconsistent, but great when he stays on the field. This is an advantage for us so hopefully we can get him somewhere in the $30-60 range.

Johnson - He's a one year wonder and is also inconsistent so I'm praying we can get him on the low end of a $30-60 scale as well.

Dalton - I legitimately think he deserves and will end up getting a Ryan Fitzpatrick deal. I don't think he's your typical franchise QB with the physical tools and moxie to win a game all on his own so he should be had around $60, which will help us conserve some money compared to other teams with franchise QB's taking a ton of money off the cap.

Thats going to be a ton of money out to just our own guys. I think we may end up not getting one of our DE's back, but I also think we'll save money on a couple of these guys who will sign smaller contracts than we have all speculated they would.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by chasf316

Wait...What? what in the world does white have to do with anything? TJ played best when in slot, Boldin's having a heck of a postseason in the slot...

I'll cheer for Hartline if he's wearing the stripes, and I'll gladly eat crow if he's worth the contract, but I've watched him closely for last 4 years and right now doesn't show ANYTHING on film that contradicts him being a liability in the redzone...I'm a Buckeye fan too, but some of us here need to stop looking at former OSU players with buckeye-colored glasses on.

If NE signs him, it'll be in the range of 7mil per or a 10mil upfront

Uhh.. I never said only white guys play in the slot. However, every white receiver is called a slot receiver. Some people still call Jordy Nelson a slot receiver for Christ sake.

As for the RZ, he doesn't have to be in on those packages. That's why we have Sanu, AJ, and Gresh. Hartline can be a between the 20s WR, and that's more than fine

[Millz]

AJ, Hartline, Sanu and Jones in year two, with a splash of Hawkins at times could be pretty sweet. Then throw Charles in there with Gresh as well if he can hold onto the ball, Dalton will have better talent & experience next year to throw to than this last one by far.

But sadly I think the Bengals are just fine with not bringing in a guy like Hartline or any other receiver that would bring some additional talent and depth to the receiving corps, and would rather just have someone like Tate instead.

[pdub2005]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

If your friend would like to see Miami let Hartline walk then I would seriously question his knowledge of the game.

Wallace and Bowe - What do many not get about guys like these? I guarantee they are not looking to be second fiddle to anyone. Ego in the NFL is as a deciding factor as cash. These type guys are looking to be the man. Wallace is a prime example. He is on a team with a very good QB and a team that is a constant contender yet he is unhappy. Why is that?

Sure you may be looking for someone to draw coverage from AJ but just as importantly if not more importantly you are looking for production when that coverage is on AJ. Hartline is a player that has to be covered period. He is a better compliment option IMO than a Bowe or Wallace as he is the type of guy that understands being a role player.

While Hartline may have expressed that he would like to stay in Miami that could very well be a politically correct answer by him. Remember he is an Ohio boy.

I love the way Brian Hartline plays, but I also have a strong bias against him for being the brother of Mike Hartline. I worked for UK football and had the unfortunate experience of meeting Mike several times while he was the Wildcats QB. Hopefully Brian is nothing like his brother, biggest arrogant dbag I ever met. Not sure how he got so cocky, considering he stunk as a QB lol.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

If your friend would like to see Miami let Hartline walk then I would seriously question his knowledge of the game.

Wallace and Bowe - What do many not get about guys like these? I guarantee they are not looking to be second fiddle to anyone. Ego in the NFL is as a deciding factor as cash. These type guys are looking to be the man. Wallace is a prime example. He is on a team with a very good QB and a team that is a constant contender yet he is unhappy. Why is that?

Sure you may be looking for someone to draw coverage from AJ but just as importantly if not more importantly you are looking for production when that coverage is on AJ. Hartline is a player that has to be covered period. He is a better compliment option IMO than a Bowe or Wallace as he is the type of guy that understands being a role player.

While Hartline may have expressed that he would like to stay in Miami that could very well be a politically correct answer by him. Remember he is an Ohio boy.

I honestly don't know why Bowe gets constantly portrayed as a huge ego person. I realize he was unhappy and spoke out about being a little malcontent, but the guy's been in the league for 6 years and has only seen 1 winning season. The Cheifs have had a record of 29-67, and he's been thrown to by Brody Coyle, Quinn Gray, Tyler Thigpen, Matt Cassel, Tyler Palko, Kyle Orton, and Brady Quinn.

Seriously, that's the list of QBs he's had..... and to top it all off, when his rookie contract runs up and he's finally ready to leave, they franchise tag him on a team where they go 2-14, and he finishes the season with Brady Quinn at QB.

I also think he's more suited to being a #2 receiver than a dominant #1. He's put up decent numbers as a #1, but he doesn't have the speed to constantly beat double/triple teams and I think he'd thrive as a #2..... also there's the fact that he's already made over $18m in the NFL, so I think right now he's more looking forward to getting on a winning team for $9m than being on a losing team for $11m, because if there's one thing he's yet to experience in the NFL, it's winning.

Give me Bowe at #2 over Hartline any given Sunday. It took four seasons for Hartline to get over 615 yards. He also has 6 TDs in 4 seasons, Hawkins and Sanu had 4 TDs each just last year.... you know who else had 1 TD like Hartline? Binns, Tate, Jones, Pressley, Guy Whimper (OT), Mike Johnson (G), Mitch Unrein (DT)... the guy is not worth the money he'll want, or probably even the money he'll settle for. I think everyone just saw the game where he had like 250 yards receiving a 1 TD (his only TD for the entire season) and just fell in love with the guy... but didn't realize the rest of the season he was not very good.

[McC]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Having an al star receiving corp isn't worth the money though. If they develop there, it's fine. It's actually very nice. But WR isn't a valuable enough position to warrant good money spent on it (Except for elite guys)

If it's a rookie, how much will he be making even if he's chosen at 21, the lower third of the first round? He'd be two years behind AJ in terms of contract. Don't see the problem.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Uhh.. I never said only white guys play in the slot. However, every white receiver is called a slot receiver. Some people still call Jordy Nelson a slot receiver for Christ sake.

As for the RZ, he doesn't have to be in on those packages. That's why we have Sanu, AJ, and Gresh. Hartline can be a between the 20s WR, and that's more than fine(***in your opinion it's fine, but MB won't be thinking that way, and ML understands that too***

Oh my...here we go again.

Originally Posted by chasf316
OK...so you think the MB is gonna pay 5-7 mil for a WR (Hartline) and watch him sitting on the bench during an offensive-redzone-possession.

You haven't really been watching the Bengals too closely if you truly believe that's gonna happen...it's all hands on deck, especially the ones getting paid the most!

Until Gresham softens up those stone hands, I really wouldn't consider him a strong redzone threat yet...

To use your, sorta, hyperbole..."for Christ sakes"...why in the world would you sign a WR @ 5-7mil who is on the bench(Hartline) in the redzone...do you people actually hear yourselves???

Just like several other members noted...Sanu and Hawkins collectively scored more TDs this season (8) than Hartline has in his ENTIRE 4 year career (6)!

And BTW J. Nelson-GB & Decker-Den are NOT slot WRs, and last time I looked they're white.

Here's the bottom line, dropping 9mil on Bowe or Wallace makes a helluva lot more sense than giving Hartline 7mil., which NE will give him, if he doesn't stay in Miami.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by chasf316

And BTW J. Nelson-GB & Decker-Den are NOT slot WRs, and last time I looked they're white.

Honestly, I would be iffy on giving those guys big contracts too. Nelson only has one really good season, and so does Decker.. and I don't think it's a coincidence that Nelson's good year lines up with Aaron Rodgers' MVP season, and Decker's good year lines up with Manning coming to Denver and putting up an MVP-like year.

Brings me back to why I think Bowe would be a great signing is the guy puts up 1,100 yards with total scrub 3rd string QBs, so we know for a fact that he can produce and it's not his QB making him look amazing. I would like to see what he could do with an above average QB.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by chasf316

Oh my...here we go again.

Originally Posted by chasf316
OK...so you think the MB is gonna pay 5-7 mil for a WR (Hartline) and watch him sitting on the bench during an offensive-redzone-possession.

You haven't really been watching the Bengals too closely if you truly believe that's gonna happen...it's all hands on deck, especially the ones getting paid the most!

Until Gresham softens up those stone hands, I really wouldn't consider him a strong redzone threat yet...

To use your, sorta, hyperbole..."for Christ sakes"...why in the world would you sign a WR @ 5-7mil who is on the bench(Hartline) in the redzone...do you people actually hear yourselves???

Just like several other members noted...Sanu and Hawkins collectively scored more TDs this season (8) than Hartline has in his ENTIRE 4 year career (6)!

And BTW J. Nelson-GB & Decker-Den are NOT slot WRs, and last time I looked they're white.

Here's the bottom line, dropping 9mil on Bowe or Wallace makes a helluva lot more sense than giving Hartline 7mil., which NE will give him, if he doesn't stay in Miami.

Not only wil Hartline not make 7 million, but you're entirely missing my point on the white WR thing. *shrug*

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

Honestly, I would be iffy on giving those guys big contracts too. Nelson only has one really good season, and so does Decker.. and I don't think it's a coincidence that Nelson's good year lines up with Aaron Rodgers' MVP season, and Decker's good year lines up with Manning coming to Denver and putting up an MVP-like year.

Brings me back to why I think Bowe would be a great signing is the guy puts up 1,100 yards with total scrub 3rd string QBs, so we know for a fact that he can produce and it's not his QB making him look amazing. I would like to see what he could do with an above average QB.

the Decker and Nelson insert was in response to another member claiming that ALL white guys are considered slot WRs...I've never heard ANYONE describe Nelson or Decker in that frame...both run too many posts to be slots...don't short-change Decker's skills...he had 8TDs receiving and nearly 700 yds with Tebow at QB...Nelson had 7 TDs this season in only 12 games...in 2011, he had 15 TDs, 1200+yds, @ a 18.6 yd per reception average...NO slot WR averages that high per catch...

IMO, both Decker and Nelson are MUCH better than Hartline

I do however, completely agree with your sentiments on Bowe...I watched him progress from his days @ LSU, where in his senior season realized wearing contracts improved his pass-catching ability drastically.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Not only wil Hartline not make 7 million, but you're entirely missing my point on the white WR thing. *shrug*

We'll see on the Hartline price tag...and I will gladly eat crow if you're right.

& yes, you're right...I don't get your "white WR" thing...Decker and Nelson are not slots, Decker runs too many deep posts to be a slot and Nelson 2011 yd. per catch was 18.6...not at all slot numbers!

and I kind get the sense that you realize Hartline isn't worth #2 money if he doesn't dictate anything over 3-4mil???

shrug

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by chasf316

We'll see on the Hartline price tag...and I will gladly eat crow if you're right.

& yes, you're right...I don't get your "white WR" thing...Decker and Nelson are not slots, Decker runs too many deep posts to be a slot and Nelson 2011 yd. per catch was 18.6...not at all slot numbers!

and I kind get the sense that you realize Hartline isn't worth #2 money if he doesn't dictate anything over 3-4mil???

shrug

I was responding to someone saying Hartline was a slot receiver. How hard was that? I was saying he's no where near it. Did you read anything I even said about it?

[Bengals0425]

Originally Posted by chasf316

Looking at how Hartline measures up against several of the other top-tier F.A. WRs, I just don't see how so many posts support dropping any significant cash in signing Hartline...

He went to Ohio State.

It happens a lot on here.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by bengals0425

he went to ohio state.

It happens a lot on here.

exactly...

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

I was responding to someone saying Hartline was a slot receiver. How hard was that? I was saying he's no where near it. Did you read anything I even said about it?

No...you were saying it's ok if Hartline gets paid #2 money and sits on the bench in the redzone.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by chasf316

I'm glad you're not managing my business, much less the Bengals!

An NFL team is a business like no other, so comparing them to other privately owned companies is an exercise in futility. The name of the game, for most franchises, is spending as close to the cap as possible, in order to get as much talent as possible, all the while playing with the figures so you don't have to cut your better players due to money issues. A good deal of teams do this quite successfully, and that success shows by way of playoff/SB wins.

However, as the Bengals defacto GM, MB doesn't know how to play this delicate game of cap control, and instead decides to spend the least amount possible so there's no chance he goes over the cap.

That's a failing business model, and it's been going on for the better part of 2 decades. Virtually every private sector company would be long out of business selling a sub-par product or service for that long. So really, MB needs to be doing almost the opposite of what he's done in the past. Now, thanks to the new CBA, he'll be forced to spend money.