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  #26  
Old 01-31-2013, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Geno > Justin Smith
Justin Smith > Dunlap or MJ
JJ > Leon

1. Geno is the best DT since Warren Sapp imo, so he trumps JS.

2. Justin Smith was a tackle machine with the best motor I've seen on a DE. Very underrated around here. He's also averaged 6.3 sacks, and has only missed 3 games in 12 years.

3. Some may disagree, but I always felt JJ was a little better than Leon. Their contracts would suggest as much. Also, JJ almost always lined up on the right side (from the offense's perspective). That's usually where you see the best WR's line up (Megatron, Chad & Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, AJ Green usually run most routes on the right side). It also seemed like Leon got burned a little more often than JJ.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Geno > Justin Smith
Justin Smith > Dunlap or MJ
JJ > Leon

1. Geno is the best DT since Warren Sapp imo, so he trumps JS.

2. Justin Smith was a tackle machine with the best motor I've seen on a DE. Very underrated around here. He's also averaged 6.3 sacks, and has only missed 3 games in 12 years.

3. Some may disagree, but I always felt JJ was a little better than Leon. Their contracts would suggest as much. Also, JJ almost always lined up on the right side (from the offense's perspective). That's usually where you see the best WR's line up (Megatron, Chad & Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, AJ Green usually run most routes on the right side). It also seemed like Leon got burned a little more often than JJ.
I think they shouldve made 2 pro bowls together when they were here. But I always fought with myself on who id keep. I liked Joe's athleticsm and coverage skills....but I liked Leon's agressivness and knack to make a pick based on perfect placement of his body.Leon was always my guy tho, I just liked somethin about him. But Joe made plays tho man
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  #28  
Old 01-31-2013, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Id take Justin anyday over Dunlap and MJ, but not over Geno.

edit: I meant in general as Justin is 33 and his career is closer to the downhill years. So I meant I would take Justin in his prime over MJ or Dunlap right now.
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  #29  
Old 01-31-2013, 07:39 PM
t3r3e3 t3r3e3 is offline
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Dunlap and MJ are not the calibre of player JSmith is. Dunlap has the potential to be.

Leon's always been better than Joseph; Joseph actually had fairly poor year this year, adn still made PB.
I agree on Justin Smith. Justin is a better football player than Dunlap or Johnson. Better against the run than both, better motor, better consistency. His sack numbers aren't as high, but he plays a 3-4 DE, with different responsibilities. In Cincy, he had no one else on the D-Line. Constantly double-teamed as a result. Dunlap may get there, but he doesn't display any kind of consistency. Michael Johnson has one good NFL year, mostly because he's singled up when teams choose to double Geno and/or Dunlap.

I don't agree on Hall v Joseph. Leon is not on the same level as JJo. The only knock on Joseph is nagging injuries. He played poorly this year only when he had hamstring problems, and very well before and after the hammy problems. Joseph is widely considered a Top 5 cover corner when healthy. Leon Hall is not. Doesn't mean Leon isn't good; he's just not Pro Bowl-caliber.
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  #30  
Old 01-31-2013, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Quoted wrong post :$
I was just curious.....who's post were you trying to quote?
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  #31  
Old 01-31-2013, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Geno is better , but lets see Johnson and Dunlap have a couple more good seasons . J.Smith has been pretty dam good for a long time . plays both the run and the pass . right now there not better than J.Smith has been .
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  #32  
Old 02-01-2013, 12:09 AM
Munoz The Great Munoz The Great is offline
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by devils advocate View Post
JS90 was a beast here. Stats tell only part of the story. He excels in SF because he's an excellent player. I'm pretty sure the likes of Aldon Smith and Patrick Willis credit Justin Smith as much as some of you credit them with Smith's success.

His one bullrush move is a silly silly argument. Face it, JSmith is better than a lot of Bengal fans wanna admit.
Smith was NOT a beast here and wasn't even close to being an impact player that his Draft position would suggest. And yes, the ONLY move he had was the bull-rush and no, he didn't get double-teamed hardly at all. He is obviously better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3. With that being said, i would take both Dunlap and Johnson over Smith any day of the week.....
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  #33  
Old 02-01-2013, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Just to give everyone a current example of what Smith brings to his team: since his injury Aldon Smith hasn't recorded a single sack. Before, he was on a record setting pace.

So even at 33, with 175+ games under his belt, he's still a dominant run stopper that commands double teams that open up lanes for Aldon to do his thing.

He should find himself in Canton when its all said and done.
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  #34  
Old 02-01-2013, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Quoted wrong post :$
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  #35  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Munoz The Great View Post
Smith was NOT a beast here and wasn't even close to being an impact player that his Draft position would suggest. And yes, the ONLY move he had was the bull-rush and no, he didn't get double-teamed hardly at all. He is obviously better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3. With that being said, i would take both Dunlap and Johnson over Smith any day of the week.....
Yes, he did. There were A BUNCH of nobodies on that d line before Clemons and Thornton, and eventually Gaethers.....and those three "somebodies" were really just average players. Until he started getting a little talent around him in '05....he was a one man show, go back and look at the rosters and the stats.
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  #36  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Geno > Justin Smith
Justin Smith > Dunlap or MJ
JJ > Leon

1. Geno is the best DT since Warren Sapp imo, so he trumps JS.

2. Justin Smith was a tackle machine with the best motor I've seen on a DE. Very underrated around here. He's also averaged 6.3 sacks, and has only missed 3 games in 12 years.

3. Some may disagree, but I always felt JJ was a little better than Leon. Their contracts would suggest as much. Also, JJ almost always lined up on the right side (from the offense's perspective). That's usually where you see the best WR's line up (Megatron, Chad & Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, AJ Green usually run most routes on the right side). It also seemed like Leon got burned a little more often than JJ.
I believe from a PFF standpoint Leon usually appeared to be the better player. No knock on JJ, he's a stud too.
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  #37  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:35 AM
shaolinghost shaolinghost is offline
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Munoz The Great View Post
Smith was NOT a beast here and wasn't even close to being an impact player that his Draft position would suggest. And yes, the ONLY move he had was the bull-rush and no, he didn't get double-teamed hardly at all. He is obviously better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3. With that being said, i would take both Dunlap and Johnson over Smith any day of the week.....
2001:
2nd on team with 8.5 sacks(Leader had 9.0)
T2nd on team with 2 ints
T3rd on team with 5 pdef

2002:
Led team with 6.5 sacks
Led team with 2.0 ffs

2003:
2nd on the team with 5.0 sacks(leader/s had 6.0)

2004:
Led team with 8.0 sacks
T2nd with 2.0 ffs

2005:
Led team with 6.0 sacks
T3rd with 1.0 FF

2006:
2nd on team with 7.5 sacks

2007:
Despite finishing the season with only 2.0 sacks, he was still tied for 2nd on the team.

This is just taking sacks into account. You've still got the fact that he was an outstanding run defender, a blue collar player that always showed up for a game, was rarely injured, and was a defensive leader. He did all this while playing out of position essentially.

Sure, he wasn't a "wow" player like you'd expect from a dominant 4-3 DE, but he was consistent and one of the best defenders we've ever had. It's not his fault our scouting dept stunk and took a 3-4 DE to play as a 4-3 end with a top5 pick.
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:36 AM
Munoz The Great Munoz The Great is offline
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior View Post
Yes, he did. There were A BUNCH of nobodies on that d line before Clemons and Thornton, and eventually Gaethers.....and those three "somebodies" were really just average players. Until he started getting a little talent around him in '05....he was a one man show, go back and look at the rosters and the stats.
True, he didn't have much talent around him at the time, but i watched this guy quite a bit and when he would rush the passer, the ONLY move he did was the bull rush and it was only the LT that was blocking him almost all the time and most of these T's weren't even elite. As far as his run stopping goes, he would get blocked out of the play, but he wouldn't give up and would make the tackle about 4 or 5 yrds past the line of scrimmage. The ONLY thing i could give Smith credit for when he was here was his non-stop motor. The reason he has been productive with S.F. is because he does have a little better talent around him and he is obviously better suited for a 3-4 defense, plus the DC that was here at the time was absolutely HORRIBLE!!!
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  #39  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
. It's not his fault our scouting dept stunk and took a 3-4 de to play as a 4-3 end with a top5 pick.
this
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  #40  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Disagree with the OP.
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  #41  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Munoz The Great View Post
True, he didn't have much talent around him at the time, but i watched this guy quite a bit and when he would rush the passer, the ONLY move he did was the bull rush and it was only the LT that was blocking him almost all the time and most of these T's weren't even elite. As far as his run stopping goes, he would get blocked out of the play, but he wouldn't give up and would make the tackle about 4 or 5 yrds past the line of scrimmage. The ONLY thing i could give Smith credit for when he was here was his non-stop motor. The reason he has been productive with S.F. is because he does have a little better talent around him and he is obviously better suited for a 3-4 defense, plus the DC that was here at the time was absolutely HORRIBLE!!!
I saw our entire Defense struggle....I feel the reason he seemed to only use the bullrush was because that's about all the time he had to get to the qb.....the old shortest route rule.....In other words, our secondary was SO terrible in those years, that the qb SELDOM had to make a second read. I remember opposing qb's dropping back and getting rid of the ball quickly, unless they were just waiting for the WR to get ALL THE WAY down the sideline. We couldn't cover my grandma from the early 90's until just recently, really. I remember him making plays 5 yards back on the other side of the field a whole bunch! LOL! WE screwed up buy drafting a player and putting out of position.....as was usually the case from the time Paul Brown died until.....well....just recently! AS you said, our DC's (Mark Duffner? WHO?) were terrible, our HC's were terrible, hell, our ENTIRE staffs were terrible, and some of them are STILL HERE! LOL! We'll just have to agree to disagree man, I saw the only two players we had in Justin's early years as him and Corey Dillon. Let's not forget, this was the Akili Smith era...we had no idea how good Chad and TJ would become, and our defense played A LOT. Are you sure you weren't watching him get shoved back after he'd played 47 minutes of a 60 minute game? Now, after 2003....the change was brewing....I liked Justin, and I remember him being doubleteamed....I mean, who else were our opponents focusing on then? Oliver Gibson, or Glen Steele? LOL!
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  #42  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Geno > Justin Smith
Justin Smith > Dunlap or MJ
JJ > Leon

1. Geno is the best DT since Warren Sapp imo, so he trumps JS.

2. Justin Smith was a tackle machine with the best motor I've seen on a DE. Very underrated around here. He's also averaged 6.3 sacks, and has only missed 3 games in 12 years.

3. Some may disagree, but I always felt JJ was a little better than Leon. Their contracts would suggest as much. Also, JJ almost always lined up on the right side (from the offense's perspective). That's usually where you see the best WR's line up (Megatron, Chad & Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, AJ Green usually run most routes on the right side). It also seemed like Leon got burned a little more often than JJ.
Joseph has never been better than Leon.

Not even up for debate really. I compiled all the stats for both guys last year since '08, and as a matter of fact, Leon has lined up against more #1s than Joseph did while he was here. I ended up accidentally closing the tab and didn't save my work, thus all of the data was lost (and it took me an hour to compile ).

And Joseph was targeted MORE with less times covering them. Puzzling, to be honest.

Furthermore, in the post I made back in 2011, I posted every one of their picks from 2008-2010; All but 2 of Joseph's were due to instincts/ballhawking ability and not good coverage (the pick 6 against the Stoolers in week 3 2009, for example).

Leon on the other hand has made ALL of his picks by getting inside on defenders, cutting off a route, keeping with his man. IMO, THOSE qualities show better "coverage" ability, and less of a ballhawking ability (his pick against the Falcons in 2010).

Furthermore, by the numbers, Joseph can't touch Leon; Leon's been better since his very first snap in the league, except for 2011.

In terms of burning btw, the longest pass Leon has given up since '08 is 70 yards. His next longest since then, is 46.

Joseph has had 8 passes of 47 or more yards since '08.
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  #43  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by t3r3e3 View Post
I agree on Justin Smith. Justin is a better football player than Dunlap or Johnson. Better against the run than both, better motor, better consistency. His sack numbers aren't as high, but he plays a 3-4 DE, with different responsibilities. In Cincy, he had no one else on the D-Line. Constantly double-teamed as a result. Dunlap may get there, but he doesn't display any kind of consistency. Michael Johnson has one good NFL year, mostly because he's singled up when teams choose to double Geno and/or Dunlap.

I don't agree on Hall v Joseph. Leon is not on the same level as JJo. The only knock on Joseph is nagging injuries. He played poorly this year only when he had hamstring problems, and very well before and after the hammy problems. Joseph is widely considered a Top 5 cover corner when healthy. Leon Hall is not. Doesn't mean Leon isn't good; he's just not Pro Bowl-caliber.
Read my above post.
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  #44  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Justin Smith did a very, very, good job while basically playing out of position while here. He just wasn't the game changer type of player (form that position) he was drafted to be !
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironlung View Post
I was just curious.....who's post were you trying to quote?
The one above it.

Where Tommy is all, "how many this did he have? How many whatever did he produce?" etc.
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  #46  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Dunlap and MJ are not the calibre of player JSmith is. Dunlap has the potential to be.

Leon's always been better than Joseph; Joseph actually had fairly poor year this year, adn still made PB.
For the system that we run (4-3), MJ and Dunlap are better players. It's not even close. Just go back and look at the production that Smith had while he was here. How many double digit sack seasons did he have? Sure, he played the run pretty well, but when you are a 4-3 DE, you need to pressure the QB.

Leon hasn't always been better than Joseph. That's strictly your opinion. One that probably isn't shared by too many people.
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  #47  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Hammerstripes View Post
For the system that we run (4-3), MJ and Dunlap are better players. It's not even close. Just go back and look at the production that Smith had while he was here. How many double digit sack seasons did he have? Sure, he played the run pretty well, but when you are a 4-3 DE, you need to pressure the QB.

Leon hasn't always been better than Joseph. That's strictly your opinion. One that probably isn't shared by too many people.
Read my post

And I'm not talking about system, I'm talking about ability.

If we throw scheme in, then Rob Ninkovich is better, going by the numbers.

That's absurd.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:52 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolinghost View Post
2001:
2nd on team with 8.5 sacks(Leader had 9.0)
T2nd on team with 2 ints
T3rd on team with 5 pdef

2002:
Led team with 6.5 sacks
Led team with 2.0 ffs

2003:
2nd on the team with 5.0 sacks(leader/s had 6.0)

2004:
Led team with 8.0 sacks
T2nd with 2.0 ffs

2005:
Led team with 6.0 sacks
T3rd with 1.0 FF

2006:
2nd on team with 7.5 sacks

2007:
Despite finishing the season with only 2.0 sacks, he was still tied for 2nd on the team.

This is just taking sacks into account. You've still got the fact that he was an outstanding run defender, a blue collar player that always showed up for a game, was rarely injured, and was a defensive leader. He did all this while playing out of position essentially.

Sure, he wasn't a "wow" player like you'd expect from a dominant 4-3 DE, but he was consistent and one of the best defenders we've ever had. It's not his fault our scouting dept stunk and took a 3-4 DE to play as a 4-3 end with a top5 pick.
We didn't take a 3-4 DE with a top 5 pick. Smith was a DE in college and just never lived up to his draft status here.

San Fran signed him away from Cincy as a 3-4 OLB. It's not like anybody thought that he was a good fit as an inside player. The 49ers needed to find a place where he could play so they didn't waste the big contract that they gave him. It was very lucky for them that it worked out.

I wouldn't even put him in the top 10 best defenders that Cincinnati ever had. That's an insult to a lot of guys that played here. Justin Smith was and is an average DE in a 4-3.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Hammerstripes View Post

Leon hasn't always been better than Joseph. That's strictly your opinion. One that probably isn't shared by too many people.
Truth!
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

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Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_ View Post
Read my post

And I'm not talking about system, I'm talking about ability.

If we throw scheme in, then Rob Ninkovich is better, going by the numbers.

That's absurd.
Unfortunately your post makes no sense then.
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