Geno, MJ, and Carlos are all better than Justin Smith

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Unfortunately your post makes no sense then.

The post I made above. With numbers. And analysis.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by CP3orChaosAD?

Truth!

Fallacy.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

The post I made above. With numbers. And analysis.

You can slant numbers however you want. It's not that difficult to do.

Again, that's your opinion.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

You can slant numbers however you want. It's not that difficult to do.

Again, that's your opinion.

How did I slant them?

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

For the system that we run (4-3), MJ and Dunlap are better players. It's not even close. Just go back and look at the production that Smith had while he was here. How many double digit sack seasons did he have? Sure, he played the run pretty well, but when you are a 4-3 DE, you need to pressure the QB.

Leon hasn't always been better than Joseph. That's strictly your opinion. One that probably isn't shared by too many people.

When receivers are wide open all day, it's hard to generate pressure.....there just isn't enough time when a guy drops 3 steps and hits a wide open target. As I said earlier, we had ZERO coverage during his first few years.....we really didn't have ANYONE else on defense then, save for Brian Simmons. MJ and Dunlap ARE good, but to ignore the fact that they benefit from their surrounding cast and the d-line rotation, whereas Smith seldom left the field and had ZERO talent on the d-line with him until the last couple years isn't really doing the argument any justice.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

When receivers are wide open all day, it's hard to generate pressure.....there just isn't enough time when a guy drops 3 steps and hits a wide open target. As I said earlier, we had ZERO coverage during his first few years.....we really didn't have ANYONE else on defense then, save for Brian Simmons. MJ and Dunlap ARE good, but to ignore the fact that they benefit from their surrounding cast and the d-line rotation, whereas Smith seldom left the field and had ZERO talent on the d-line with him until the last couple years isn't really doing the argument any justice.

Open WRs really have nothing to do with generating pressure. Getting sacks, sure. Smith was not a very good pass rusher here - regardless of who he had around him.

There are a lot of guys that have little supporting cast, but still have an impact in the passing game because of their ability to generate pressure. That wasn't Smith.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Open WRs really have nothing to do with generating pressure. Getting sacks, sure. Smith was not a very good pass rusher here - regardless of who he had around him.

There are a lot of guys that have little supporting cast, but still have an impact in the passing game because of their ability to generate pressure. That wasn't Smith.

...but how many of them were on teams with anemic offenses, bad secondaries, bad coaches, and played most of the defensive snaps(not just situational pass rushers).

None of the DEs on this team now really get pressure all by themselves. MJ and Dunlap get a lot of pressures because of Atkins wreaking havoc up the middle. When Atkins was neutralized(Texans game), this team got exactly zero sacks, and rarely even got pressure.

If Smith had an Atkins equivalent here I'll bet he has multiple seasons with 10+ sacks.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Joseph has never been better than Leon.

Not even up for debate really. I compiled all the stats for both guys last year since '08, and as a matter of fact, Leon has lined up against more #1s than Joseph did while he was here. I ended up accidentally closing the tab and didn't save my work, thus all of the data was lost (and it took me an hour to compile ).

And Joseph was targeted MORE with less times covering them. Puzzling, to be honest.

Furthermore, in the post I made back in 2011, I posted every one of their picks from 2008-2010; All but 2 of Joseph's were due to instincts/ballhawking ability and not good coverage (the pick 6 against the Stoolers in week 3 2009, for example).

Leon on the other hand has made ALL of his picks by getting inside on defenders, cutting off a route, keeping with his man. IMO, THOSE qualities show better "coverage" ability, and less of a ballhawking ability (his pick against the Falcons in 2010).

Furthermore, by the numbers, Joseph can't touch Leon; Leon's been better since his very first snap in the league, except for 2011.

In terms of burning btw, the longest pass Leon has given up since '08 is 70 yards. His next longest since then, is 46.

Joseph has had 8 passes of 47 or more yards since '08.

I disagree, so that makes it a debate.

1. I fail to see how Joseph's INT's are somehow less impressive because they were due to "ball-hawking ability". Dude must be one heckuva ball-hawk, cuz he keeps doing it.

2. My eyes must be failing me, because I almost always saw Joseph line up on the right side of the field (from the QB's perspective), and that's where Calvin, Chad, Andre, Fitzgerald, Marshall, AJ Green, and almost every dominant WR seem to line up 90% of the time. Just this past season, it seemed like Leon spent a lot of time covering slot guys and TE's. Pacman covered Andre Johnson as well as some other #1's. Newman covered some as well.

3. I imagine Joseph's #'s are slightly worse than Leon's (I've seen the #'s before), but I think JJ covered more #1 (game-breaker type) WR's than Leon. So the discrepancy in #'s would be more a reflection of that than proof that Leon is better.

4. How many 30+ yard passes did they both give up while here?

Again, I don't think there was a huge gap between JJ and Leon, but I definitely think JJ had at least a slight edge. If you honestly think Leon is better than JJ, then Leon's agent should be fired. JJ got 5 years, 48.75 million with 23.5 million guaranteed. Leon got 4 years, 39 million with only 14.1 million guaranteed. The average is the same, but Leon got 1 less year, and only 36% of his money is guaranteed. 48% of Joseph's money is guaranteed. And Leon signed his deal after Joseph. So if Leon were so much better than JJ, his agent should've demanded more money, or at least similar guaranteed money.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

I disagree, so that makes it a debate.

1. I fail to see how Joseph's INT's are somehow less impressive because they were due to "ball-hawking ability". Dude must be one heckuva ball-hawk, cuz he keeps doing it.

2. My eyes must be failing me, because I almost always saw Joseph line up on the right side of the field (from the QB's perspective), and that's where Calvin, Chad, Andre, Fitzgerald, Marshall, AJ Green, and almost every dominant WR seem to line up 90% of the time. Just this past season, it seemed like Leon spent a lot of time covering slot guys and TE's. Pacman covered Andre Johnson as well as some other #1's. Newman covered some as well.

3. I imagine Joseph's #'s are slightly worse than Leon's (I've seen the #'s before), but I think JJ covered more #1 (game-breaker type) WR's than Leon. So the discrepancy in #'s would be more a reflection of that than proof that Leon is better.

4. How many 30+ yard passes did they both give up while here?

Again, I don't think there was a huge gap between JJ and Leon, but I definitely think JJ had at least a slight edge. If you honestly think Leon is better than JJ, then Leon's agent should be fired. JJ got 5 years, 48.75 million with 23.5 million guaranteed. Leon got 4 years, 39 million with only 14.1 million guaranteed. The average is the same, but Leon got 1 less year, and only 36% of his money is guaranteed. 48% of Joseph's money is guaranteed. And Leon signed his deal after Joseph. So if Leon were so much better than JJ, his agent should've demanded more money, or at least similar guaranteed money.

In terms of contract, I wouldn't doubt that they were BOTH given the same terms, length, etc. Maybe that's why Joseph left (?)

1. I never said they were less impressive, merely that they weren't really due to coverage, but to ballhawking ability.

2. You are correct where the corners line up. And in that same Pitt game of 2009, Santonio Holmes lined up EVERY snap on Leon; Wallace/Whines were covered by Joseph. Johnson as well in the past 2 seasons, had been covered solely by Adam/Leon, only a couple of times on Newman and Clements. #1s line up all over. This year is when Leon has been mainly in the slot, if there is a slot guy; he never used to do that (Morgan Trent).

3. You missed where I wrote that Leon was lined up more against #1s, yet Joseph was targeted more.

4. From '08-now, Leon has given up 10 passes of 30 or more. 7 from '08-'10.
Joseph, from '08-now: 15 passes of 30 or more. 10 from '08-'10

And Leon was targeted overall more than Joseph, but that can be due to injuries mainly. In '09 when both were healthy for all 16 games, Joseph had 108 targets, Leon 101.

The numbers don't lie, as well with eye test. I'm sorry Shake, I just cannot prescribe to the idea with all of this evidence going against him.

[Shake n Blake]

As for Justin Smith, he was every bit as good here as he is in SF.

He just gets hype and appreciation now because he's on a great defense.

Here in Cincy, he was a lot like Dan Wilkinson. Wilkinson and Justin Smith were both taken high in the draft, and people expected 15 sack seasons because of that.

Dan and Justin weren't 15 sack type players, but they were still outstanding overall. Problem is, people only look at sacks and how good the entire defense is (was) playing.

Wilkinson averaged 7 sacks here as a DT, which was outstanding (he also had 5 as a 3-4 DE in his final year here). But the Bengals averaged a ranking of 25th on defense, so no one appreciated him.

Same goes for Justin Smith. He averaged 67 tackles and 6-7 sacks per season. Very productive, especially considering that John Thornton and a random cast of scrubs were his DT's (I wonder what he could've pulled off with Geno). But again, people wanted a one-man wrecking ball who would instantly change our defense.

Honestly, we could probably make an entire team of current and former Bengals who were good, but went unappreciated here.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

...Honestly, we could probably make an entire team of current and former Bengals who were good, but went unappreciated here.

Great post, Shake! But don't give anyone an idea for another off-season thread.

[ThunderCloud]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

As for Justin Smith, he was every bit as good here as he is in SF.

He just gets hype and appreciation now because he's on a great defense.

Here in Cincy, he was a lot like Dan Wilkinson. Wilkinson and Justin Smith were both taken high in the draft, and people expected 15 sack seasons because of that.

Dan and Justin weren't 15 sack type players, but they were still outstanding overall. Problem is, people only look at sacks and how good the entire defense is (was) playing.

Wilkinson averaged 7 sacks here as a DT, which was outstanding (he also had 5 as a 3-4 DE in his final year here). But the Bengals averaged a ranking of 25th on defense, so no one appreciated him.

Same goes for Justin Smith. He averaged 67 tackles and 6-7 sacks per season. Very productive, especially considering that John Thornton and a random cast of scrubs were his DT's (I wonder what he could've pulled off with Geno). But again, people wanted a one-man wrecking ball who would instantly change our defense.

Honestly, we could probably make an entire team of current and former Bengals who were good, but went unappreciated here.

This a great post, and sums up the situation really well. Rep to you, Shake.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

As for Justin Smith, he was every bit as good here as he is in SF.

He just gets hype and appreciation now because he's on a great defense.

Here in Cincy, he was a lot like Dan Wilkinson. Wilkinson and Justin Smith were both taken high in the draft, and people expected 15 sack seasons because of that.

Dan and Justin weren't 15 sack type players, but they were still outstanding overall. Problem is, people only look at sacks and how good the entire defense is (was) playing.

Wilkinson averaged 7 sacks here as a DT, which was outstanding (he also had 5 as a 3-4 DE in his final year here). But the Bengals averaged a ranking of 25th on defense, so no one appreciated him.

Same goes for Justin Smith. He averaged 67 tackles and 6-7 sacks per season. Very productive, especially considering that John Thornton and a random cast of scrubs were his DT's (I wonder what he could've pulled off with Geno). But again, people wanted a one-man wrecking ball who would instantly change our defense.

Honestly, we could probably make an entire team of current and former Bengals who were good, but went unappreciated here.

You're right, he is every bit as good in SF as he was here. That shows you what playing in a system that shows his strengths does for him.

The difference? He is a Pro-Bowl 3-4 DE in SF, he was an average to good DE in a 4-3 in Cincy. I don't think playing next to Geno would have helped his numbers all that much since Justin wasn't double teamed all that often when he was here because he wasn't a guy teams worried about all that much.

When you draft a guy in the top 5, you need to get a game changer. AJ Green and Carson Palmer were 2 top 5 picks that provided a game changing element to the Bengals. Justin Smith did not. That's why people complain about his lack of production. If he would have been a late first rounder, there would have been no complaints.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

When you draft a guy in the top 5, you need to get a game changer. AJ Green and Carson Palmer were 2 top 5 picks that provided a game changing element to the Bengals. Justin Smith did not. That's why people complain about his lack of production. If he would have been a late first rounder, there would have been no complaints.

He is worth a top 5 pick though...just not for a 4-3 team, and that's if you're judging him solely on sacks.

You can't hold where he was drafted against him. He played like a 1st round pick while here, and other than Dan Wilkinson, Tim Krumrie, and Geno Atkins, Smith was the best Dlineman the Bengals have had in the last 20 years.

[degolfisfun]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Dunlap and MJ are not the calibre of player JSmith is. Dunlap has the potential to be.

Leon's always been better than Joseph; Joseph actually had fairly poor year this year, adn still made PB.

Pretty much agree. Justin Smith has had a very good career; about the same in Cincy and San Fran but getting the proper (All Pro) recognition in San Fran. Possible Hall of Famer with a Super Bowl?

I don't believe MJ or Carlos are in Justin's class. I think MJ is currently in the Above Average category (and should be paid accordingly.) Carlos is strictly Average with a very high potential. Remember, he does not even start!

Leon and JJ have always been a close call in my mind. I think both are All Pro level. JJ is the better pass defender; Leon is the better run defender and perhaps one of the league's best at this.

It is a shame Bengaldom can't appreciate talent when money is at stake; e.g. JJ and Justin. Most of these guys only get one contract renewal in their careers. Typically it is Year 5 or 6 for first round draft choices and then not again until Year 10 or 11 when they may be finished. Minus QB and WR, the Bengals seem to have a real hard time paying top dollar for top talent. What happens is other teams - including tight fisted teams like the Texans - pay it instead and Bengaldom whines of "money-grubbing, no great loss, etc." and we draftsomebody, get the fan base excited, and start the process all over again. Example: Dre Kirkpatrick - how many more years before he will be an in-kind replacement for JJ? Another 2? Another 3? Never? Sad, when we could have used that 1st round draft choice for something else? It won't surprise me if the same thing happens with Andre Smith this year.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

You're right, he is every bit as good in SF as he was here. That shows you what playing in a system that shows his strengths does for him.

The difference? He is a Pro-Bowl 3-4 DE in SF, he was an average to good DE in a 4-3 in Cincy. I don't think playing next to Geno would have helped his numbers all that much since Justin wasn't double teamed all that often when he was here because he wasn't a guy teams worried about all that much.

When you draft a guy in the top 5, you need to get a game changer. AJ Green and Carson Palmer were 2 top 5 picks that provided a game changing element to the Bengals. Justin Smith did not. That's why people complain about his lack of production. If he would have been a late first rounder, there would have been no complaints.

I don't remember it that way. Justin Smith was double teamed quite often here. He was pro-bowl caliber here too, but as I said, the defense stunk. He's a little better in a 3-4, but I don't think the difference is night and day like you're saying though.

As for the game changing stuff, it's easier for a QB or WR to change an offense than it is for a DE to change a terrible defense. You could've put Michael Strahan on the '01-07 Bengals and it wouldn't have made much difference.

[BengalBuckeye]

Originally Posted by Tommy <3's Da Bengals

When Justin was here when did he ever get a sack that wasn't a coverage sack? When Justin was here when didn't we just get run over in the running game? When Justin was here when did the D rank higher than 28th? When has Justin ever had 11 sacks?

Carlos and Justin's career high is both 9 sacks in their rookie year, but Carlos makes way more big plays. How many TDs did Justin score? How many INTs did he get? How many forced fumbles and TFL did he have? Justin was the only DE who made 90% of his tackles 5 yards down field.

Justin's most memorable play for the Bengals roughing the QB on Gradkowski in 06.

Did all you guys forget how poor the Bengals D Line was when he was our supposed best player?

Are you that dumb.Justin Smith was getting double teamed every play because we had no one else on the line worth a nickle.He was getting double teamed and held quite alot and still applied pressure.I don't know what games you watch or maybe your football IQ is that of a rock.Before you start talking down on someone get a clue.

[BengalBuckeye]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

He is worth a top 5 pick though...just not for a 4-3 team, and that's if you're judging him solely on sacks.

You can't hold where he was drafted against him. He played like a 1st round pick while here, and other than Dan Wilkinson, Tim Krumrie, and Geno Atkins, Smith was the best Dlineman the Bengals have had in the last 20 years.

The problem was that the Bengals drafted him when he was 2760-265 lbs and then wanted him beefed up to 275-280 because we're the only team in all of football that thinks de's can't play at 260 or 265.

[tazdt]

i always liked smith would have loved to see his numbers with zimmer as coach. smith had to deal with terrible defensive schemes while he was here.

[Night's Watch]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

As for Justin Smith, he was every bit as good here as he is in SF.

He just gets hype and appreciation now because he's on a great defense.

Here in Cincy, he was a lot like Dan Wilkinson. Wilkinson and Justin Smith were both taken high in the draft, and people expected 15 sack seasons because of that.

Dan and Justin weren't 15 sack type players, but they were still outstanding overall. Problem is, people only look at sacks and how good the entire defense is (was) playing.

Wilkinson averaged 7 sacks here as a DT, which was outstanding (he also had 5 as a 3-4 DE in his final year here). But the Bengals averaged a ranking of 25th on defense, so no one appreciated him.

Same goes for Justin Smith. He averaged 67 tackles and 6-7 sacks per season. Very productive, especially considering that John Thornton and a random cast of scrubs were his DT's (I wonder what he could've pulled off with Geno). But again, people wanted a one-man wrecking ball who would instantly change our defense.

Honestly, we could probably make an entire team of current and former Bengals who were good, but went unappreciated here.

I agree with this.......I remember seeing JS beast it up week in and week out, he was held back by a horrible defense and coach, I believe a line of Smith, Peko, Atkins, MJ (because Dunlap would not have been) and Zimmer running the show would be down right beast mode.

Originally Posted by Tommy <3's Da Bengals

I don't give a crap what anybody says.

and I don't care what anybody says either.......

[Monster]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

You're right, he is every bit as good in SF as he was here. That shows you what playing in a system that shows his strengths does for him.

The difference? He is a Pro-Bowl 3-4 DE in SF, he was an average to good DE in a 4-3 in Cincy. I don't think playing next to Geno would have helped his numbers all that much since Justin wasn't double teamed all that often when he was here because he wasn't a guy teams worried about all that much.

When you draft a guy in the top 5, you need to get a game changer. AJ Green and Carson Palmer were 2 top 5 picks that provided a game changing element to the Bengals. Justin Smith did not. That's why people complain about his lack of production. If he would have been a late first rounder, there would have been no complaints.

If we had skipped him in the draft then we would be having the "we could have had smith " forum. Sometimes we just can't win here

[JungleJuice]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

Open WRs really have nothing to do with generating pressure. Getting sacks, sure. Smith was not a very good pass rusher here - regardless of who he had around him.

There are a lot of guys that have little supporting cast, but still have an impact in the passing game because of their ability to generate pressure. That wasn't Smith.

Pressure has everything to do with WR getting open.

The best corners and safeties in this league cannot shut down a 3rd WR if they have to cover for more than 5secs