Leon Hall #2 shutdown corner by 1st Downs and TDs per snap

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by bfine32

Here is why many hate on Leon:

Many hate the organization

The organization chose Leon over JJo

Making JJo look good and Leon look bad "validates" their view

I've always said Leon > JJo

Aaaand you'd be correct.

Maybe I should move my post in the JSmith thread to here.

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by henrizzle

Pacman? Are you serious? He notoriously gets beat on double moves. Look at the A. Johnson TD last year or Wallace TD from the second Steelers game.

Two, in two years, I'll take that.

[bcolby20]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Aaaand you'd be correct.

Maybe I should move my post in the JSmith thread to here.

hahaha that's not a bad idea. i saw some of the same nonsense in that thread as well lol.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by bcolby20

hahaha that's not a bad idea. i saw some of the same nonsense in that thread as well lol.

Will do, here it is:

Joseph has never been better than Leon.

Not even up for debate really. I compiled all the stats for both guys last year since '08, and as a matter of fact, Leon has lined up against more #1s than Joseph did while he was here. I ended up accidentally closing the tab and didn't save my work, thus all of the data was lost (and it took me an hour to compile ).

And Joseph was targeted MORE with less times covering them. Puzzling, to be honest.

Furthermore, in the post I made back in 2011, I posted every one of their picks from 2008-2010; All but 2 of Joseph's were due to instincts/ballhawking ability and not good coverage (the pick 6 against the Stoolers in week 3 2009, for example).

Leon on the other hand has made ALL of his picks by getting inside on defenders, cutting off a route, keeping with his man. IMO, THOSE qualities show better "coverage" ability, and less of a ballhawking ability (his pick against the Falcons in 2010).

Furthermore, by the numbers, Joseph can't touch Leon; Leon's been better since his very first snap in the league, except for 2011.

In terms of burning btw, the longest pass Leon has given up since '08 is 70 yards. His next longest since then, is 46.

Joseph has had 8 passes of 47 or more yards since '08.

[bcolby20]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Will do, here it is:

beautiful. do people actually watch bengals games before they come in here and spew nonsense lol?

while im not saying joseph is a bad CB by any means, he can't hold leon's jock at this point in both of their careers IMO. numbers don't lie dudes.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by bcolby20

beautiful. do people actually watch bengals games before they come in here and spew nonsense lol?

while im not saying joseph is a bad CB by any means, he can't hold leon's jock at this point in both of their careers IMO. numbers don't lie dudes.

Hold his jock is a bit harsh; they are both top 10 corners in the league.

Joseph's good in coverage, Leon's better.

Leon's good against the run, Joseph's better.

Pass rushing they're useless.

Leon MUCH deserved pro-bowl over Joseph this year, Joseph deserved it last year.

[bcolby20]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Hold his jock is a bit harsh; they are both top 10 corners in the league.

Joseph's good in coverage, Leon's better.

Leon's good against the run, Joseph's better.

Pass rushing they're useless.

Leon MUCH deserved pro-bowl over Joseph this year, Joseph deserved it last year.

lol yeah it is a little harsh i suppose :P

[henrizzle]

Originally Posted by bfine32

Here is why many hate on Leon:

Many hate the organization

The organization chose Leon over JJo

Making JJo look good and Leon look bad "validates" their view

I've always said Leon > JJo

Great points. Leon is a great defender and made a great comeback from that Achilles injury which is a possible career ender for players who have to make quick cuts like cb. I've noticed if Leon does get beat it's usually by a great throw and catch and more often than not he has excellent coverage. See the pitta TD from the first Baltimore game. He's dropped all over pitta but he still makes the catch.

I think he was slowed for the first part of the season coming back from injury, but towards the end he was back in great shape

[bcolby20]

Originally Posted by henrizzle

Great points. Leon is a great defender and made a great comeback from that Achilles injury which is a possible career ender for players who have to make quick cuts like cb. I've noticed if Leon does get beat it's usually by a great throw and catch and more often than not he has excellent coverage. See the pitta TD from the first Baltimore game. He's dropped all over pitta but he still makes the catch.

I think he was slowed for the first part of the season coming back from injury, but towards the end he was back in great shape

this is also a good point, thank god he came back from his achilles injury as well as he did. he looks just as strong as he ever has, and he still has 3-4 years easily left still in his prime. i never understood how he can go so unnoticed while consistently being one of the top CBs in the game for the last 5 years.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Will do, here it is:

In terms of burning btw, the longest pass Leon has given up since '08 is 70 yards. His next longest since then, is 46.

I'm a big fan of Hall and agree he is and always has been better than JoJo ... but he did give up a 52-yard completion to Torrey Smith on the first play of this season and was also beaten in single coverage for a 55-yarder in the Seattle game in 2011, so these numbers are out-of-date or missing a play or two.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I'm a big fan of Hall and agree he is and always has been better than JoJo ... but he did give up a 52-yard completion to Torrey Smith on the first play of this season and was also beaten in single coverage for a 55-yarder in the Seattle game in 2011, so these numbers are out-of-date or missing a play or two.

That Torrey Smith catch was incorrectly given to him; more than well documented that is was the safeties faults, as Leon released to cover his man underneath. Was Leon even in the picture of the play, the last 5 seconds of it?

The 55 yarder was the same thing; longest pass Leon gave up that game was a 35 yarder to Sidney Rice.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

That Torrey Smith catch was incorrectly given to him; more than well documented that is was the safeties faults, as Leon released to cover his man underneath. Was Leon even in the picture of the play, the last 5 seconds of it?

The 55 yarder was the same thing; longest pass Leon gave up that game was a 35 yarder to Sidney Rice.

Sorry, but you're either completely wrong or thinking of different plays. Leon was step-for-step with Smith on the 52-yarder ... so easy answer to your question of whether he was "in the picture": yes, he was all over Smith diving for the ball with him when Smith made the catch. Same thing with the Seattle play ... Leon step-for-step with the WR the whole way and just beaten on a deep throw up the sideline. I have a subscription to NFL rewind, so I just watched both plays again from the aerial view to make sure I wasn't remembering them wrong ... both plays no doubt Hall in single coverage following the WRs step-for-step the entire play and just beaten on good throws and good catches.

As I said, I'm a big fan ... I would never post stuff unfairly trying to make Hall look bad. I've even defended him in the past on plays where he was 'beaten', but IMO it was clearly somebody else's fault for not playing their coverage correctly. But, those two plays are definitely not in that category.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Sorry, but you're either completely wrong or thinking of different plays. Leon was step-for-step with Smith on the 52-yarder ... so easy answer to your question of whether he was "in the picture": yes, he was all over Smith diving for the ball with him when Smith made the catch. Same thing with the Seattle play ... Leon step-for-step with the WR the whole way and just beaten on a deep throw up the sideline. I have a subscription to NFL rewind, so I just watched both plays again from the aerial view to make sure I wasn't remembering them wrong ... both plays no doubt Hall in single coverage following the WRs step-for-step the entire play and just beaten on good throws and good catches.

As I said, I'm a big fan ... I would never post stuff unfairly trying to make Hall look bad. I've even defended him in the past on plays where he was 'beaten', but IMO it was clearly somebody else's fault for not playing their coverage correctly. But, those two plays are definitely not in that category.

Wasn't the 52 yarder where Nelson and Mays both blew it deep?

And the only really long reception I remember Leon giving up was the 35 yard diving catch to Rice, which Rice got lucky on as it was a poorly thrown ball.

Even then, the numbers still favour Leon, across the board My apologies on the screw ups.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Wasn't the 52 yarder where Nelson and Mays both blew it deep?

And the only really long reception I remember Leon giving up was the 35 yard diving catch to Rice, which Rice got lucky on as it was a poorly thrown ball.

1. You are correct - Hall gave Smith the inside, expecting a safety to be on the other side of Hall, bracketing the receiver so Smith would've had to had to DBs swatting. Unfortunately, I believe Mays misread the play (shocker) and went after someone else.

2. Sometimes a receiver just makes a play; the rules favor the offense and sometimes you give up a big play because the only other option is a PI call.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

Hall is one of the better CBs in the league. He's the kinda guy you dont even have to think about, because you know he's generally consistently good. He's a guy who generally just gets down and plays, little off the field crap.

We're lucky to have the guy.

[Joelist]

Now we need a third CB so that we can let Leon do his routine of stalking the TE and baiting the QB more - he got 2 pick sixes off of it late last season.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

1. You are correct - Hall gave Smith the inside, expecting a safety to be on the other side of Hall, bracketing the receiver so Smith would've had to had to DBs swatting. Unfortunately, I believe Mays misread the play (shocker) and went after someone else.

2. Sometimes a receiver just makes a play; the rules favor the offense and sometimes you give up a big play because the only other option is a PI call.

Gotcha.

Still though, that was his man as he was with him, so my mistake still.

And yeah, Leon was step for step with the receivers in Seattle; they just made the catches every play.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Wasn't the 52 yarder where Nelson and Mays both blew it deep?
.....
Even then, the numbers still favour Leon, across the board My apologies on the screw ups.

The later TD to Boldin was the play where he split Mays and Nelson. But, I'm still with you on the main point ... Leon is a very good CB. All CBs get beat occasionally when they're on an island, even great ones (as Champ Bailey reminded us in the playoffs versus Ravens)

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

1. You are correct - Hall gave Smith the inside, expecting a safety to be on the other side of Hall, bracketing the receiver so Smith would've had to had to DBs swatting. Unfortunately, I believe Mays misread the play (shocker) and went after someone else...l.

Quite possible ... on the play Mays does bite big-time on the play-action and there's no safety deep to help Hall out. Quite possible that there should have been ... just the way the play unfolded Hall's singled up all the way with Smith. Actually, pretty good coverage from Hall, but it can be hard to stop a good throw and a good diving catch.

[SHRacerX]

Originally Posted by henrizzle

Pacman? Are you serious? He notoriously gets beat on double moves. Look at the A. Johnson TD last year or Wallace TD from the second Steelers game.

Notorious? Better look up that definition. He was injured the previous play, and came back on the field because there was basically no one else left against Johnson. Did you look at the PFF data? Shows he is not only better than the $10 million per year JJoe, but also a threat on special teams.

I also like his mental toughness.

[tazdt]

hall has always been underrated and the fact he has never been to a pro bowl is a joke.

[benny44]

I have always been a big Hall fan and its nice that he finally gets some respect.

[Bengal4ever68]

Hall is good. We could possibly draft Xavier Rhodes if Keenan Allen doesn't fall to us in the 1st.

Leon
Rhodes
Kirkpatrick
PacMan
Newman