Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by t3r3e3

The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.

How long did it take for Brees to become a surgeon though?

He made one start as a rookie, so the Chargers let him sit and learn.

Then in his next 2 seasons, he went 10-17 as starter while completing 59.5% of his passes and throwing only 28 TD's to 31 INT's.

That was with Ladainian Tomlinson as his RB.

The light didn't come on for Brees until his 4th season.

[jack1953]

Originally Posted by t3r3e3

The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.

What team do you coach?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[bengalfan4life27c]

Prepare for Dalton to have a huge jump this year. The progressions from year 2 to year 3 is significant for the good ones. I think Dalton can put up MVP numbers if we find him an explosive 2 opposite AJ.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

But they aren't this amazing pass blocking line though; they aren't even in the top 10 (11th).

Run blocking, they are phenomenally adept, arguably the best ever run blocking line, but pass bocking guys are giving them way too much credit.

I feel like 11th pass blocking, and 4th in rushing yards (3rd in YPC) still equates to one hell of a good offensive line. Certainly good enough to make one look better rather than worse. Heck, it made Alex Smith look good.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

How long did it take for Brees to become a surgeon though?

.....

Fair point. Brees was bad enough in his 3rd year that the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers and Brees likely wouldn't have even played his 4th year (which ended up being his breakout year) except that Rivers held out of training camp his rookie year and only signed right before preseason.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair point. Brees was bad enough in his 3rd year that the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers and Brees likely wouldn't have even played his 4th year (which ended up being his breakout year) except that Rivers held out of training camp his rookie year and only signed right before preseason.

I bet they're regretting that decision now.

Not saying Rivers is a bad QB, but you gotta believe they would've won a SB if they'd kept Drew Brees there with LT, Gates and VJax.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by bengalfan4life27c

Prepare for Dalton to have a huge jump this year. The progressions from year 2 to year 3 is significant for the good ones. I think Dalton can put up MVP numbers if we find him an explosive 2 opposite AJ.

I keep seeing MANY equating progression of Dalton to another WR. Not saying it would not help but it seems that many on these boards have lost all focus on what a good running game means to an offense. As I have stated before ....I applaud Benny for what he did with the skillset that he has but let's be realistic he does not threaten teams in the open field.

Benny does not threaten teams in the screen game. He does not threaten teams as an underneath receiving option. These things as much if not possibly more open up the rest of the offense. Having a back that can do these things I feel is more important to the progression of Dalton and more importantly this offense than yet another receiver.

Just like a QB develops so do WRs. Sanu and Jones both flashed the talent it takes to be threats at this level. Gresham merely becomes more consistent. We as well have a kid in Orson Charles that I believe was greatly under utilized.

In short I believe the real progression of this offense lies in the ability of this offense to threaten defenses on the ground on a consistent basis.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

I keep seeing MANY equating progression of Dalton to another WR. Not saying it would not help but it seems that many on these boards have lost all focus on what a good running game means to an offense. As I have stated before ....I applaud Benny for what he did with the skillset that he has but let's be realistic he does not threaten teams in the open field.

Benny does not threaten teams in the screen game. He does not threaten teams as an underneath receiving option. These things as much if not possibly more open up the rest of the offense. Having a back that can do these things I feel is more important to the progression of Dalton and more importantly this offense than yet another receiver.

Just like a QB develops so do WRs. Sanu and Jones both flashed the talent it takes to be threats at this level. Gresham merely becomes more consistent. We as well have a kid in Orson Charles that I believe was greatly under utilized.

In short I believe the real progression of this offense lies in the ability of this offense to threaten defenses on the ground on a consistent basis.

I agree...you mean an actual WC back.

And its not a 1 size fits all solution. A back or a receiver help. A legit running game helps more as we didn't have that much of the year...which doesn't really get talked about much. Dalton gets the blame for whatever reason.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by t3r3e3

The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.

My point was that Brees wasn't always a surgeon.

He was very inaccurate his first few years.

Both can be worked on and we will see how dedicated young Dalton is at his craft.

More weapons can only help Dalton but if he is delivering inaccurate passes to them it won't matter.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I agree...you mean an actual WC back.

And its not a 1 size fits all solution. A back or a receiver help. A legit running game helps more as we didn't have that much of the year...which doesn't really get talked about much. Dalton gets the blame for whatever reason.

At some point during a deep playoff run a good defense is going to force Dalton to throw the football.

That's what good defenses do, try to expose the offenses weakness and make them win by that weakness.

If Dalton doesn't improve HIS game this team will not take the next step.

I'm all for getting Andy some help, and I'm not blaming Andy for anything, but he needs a lot of improvement in HIS game or new weapons will be a waste.

[BengalsIronMan]

Why won't this thread die

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by BengalsIronMan

Why won't this thread die

Because you posted.

[BengalsIronMan]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Because you posted.

Touché

[Masterloki121]

Kaepernick is a great quarterback dont get me wrong but the 49ers have a better ground game than the Bengals do witch is why Kaepernick has the time to do what he does, And Yes Defence wins championships but you need to be able to threaten the other team with your offence. I think the Bengals need to get better on the ground to take the presser off of Andy if they dont they will do the same thing next year. I do not like the 49ers at all I was, am, and always will be a Bengals fan nomatter what but we need to run the ball more effectivly this will give Andy the time he needs to make the throws more accurately Who Dey!!!! P.S. I think Mr. Jackson for RB coach is the right move!!!!

[Shake n Blake]

One thing that gets me with the constant criticism of Andy Dalton is that his 2012 performance is on par with Carson "golden boy" Palmer.

2012 Andy: 62.3% completions,,, 7.0 YPA,,, 5.1 TD%,,, 3.0 INT%,,, 87.4 rating

Carson's career: 62.5% completions,,, 7.2 YPA,,, 4.6 TD%,,, 3.2 INT%,,, 86.2 rating

Yet people act as if Andy's 2012 season was a total disaster.

I understand the last 5 games were pretty weak, but he had his moments even then.

@ SD: Threw 2 picks, but completed 65.8% and accounted for 2 TD's in the win.

vs Dallas: Andy actually played a good game here. Competed 60.6% despite 8 drops by receivers. Would've had 2 TD's and win if AJ makes an easy catch.

@ Philly: Weak game. Went 13-27 for a measly 127 yards and a TD. Can't really pin it all on him though. Receivers had 6 more drops. O-line got man-handled in pass pro.

@ Pizzburgh: I thought this was a good and gutsy game by Andy. Threw for 278 against an excellent defense, on the road, with ZERO help from RB's. Threw 2 INT's, but one of those was on AJ. Made the clutch throw at the end.

vs Balt: Not a bad game at all. Went 10 of 15 with a TD.

[McC]

Originally Posted by gardner30

At some point during a deep playoff run a good defense is going to force Dalton to throw the football.

That's what good defenses do, try to expose the offenses weakness and make them win by that weakness.

If Dalton doesn't improve HIS game this team will not take the next step.

I'm all for getting Andy some help, and I'm not blaming Andy for anything, but he needs a lot of improvement in HIS game or new weapons will be a waste.

He most certainly does. My money's on him doing just that. I'd imagine nobody's more aware of it than him. He has the talent and the will to get to and stay at the top of his game. The top of his game can take us anywhere we need to go. He's probably working on it right now.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

One thing that gets me with the constant criticism of Andy Dalton is that his 2012 performance is on par with Carson "golden boy" Palmer.

2012 Andy: 62.3% completions,,, 7.0 YPA,,, 5.1 TD%,,, 3.0 INT%,,, 87.4 rating

Carson's career: 62.5% completions,,, 7.2 YPA,,, 4.6 TD%,,, 3.2 INT%,,, 86.2 rating

Yet people act as if Andy's 2012 season was a total disaster.

I understand the last 5 games were pretty weak, but he had his moments even then.

@ SD: Threw 2 picks, but completed 65.8% and accounted for 2 TD's in the win.

vs Dallas: Andy actually played a good game here. Competed 60.6% despite 8 drops by receivers. Would've had 2 TD's and win if AJ makes an easy catch.

@ Philly: Weak game. Went 13-27 for a measly 127 yards and a TD. Can't really pin it all on him though. Receivers had 6 more drops. O-line got man-handled in pass pro.

@ Pizzburgh: I thought this was a good and gutsy game by Andy. Threw for 278 against an excellent defense, on the road, with ZERO help from RB's. Threw 2 INT's, but one of those was on AJ. Made the clutch throw at the end.

vs Balt: Not a bad game at all. Went 10 of 15 with a TD.

Aren't you forgetting the last game???

@ Houston:

Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT

Andy Dalton14/30 127 0 1

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Aren't you forgetting the last game???

@ Houston:

Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT

Andy Dalton14/30 127 0 1

Oh yeah. The game where Jay Gruden decided to avoid AJ like the plague in the first half? Andy was 4-10 for 3 yards at halftime due to Jay's brilliant game plan and several drops by Gresham.

Andy actually completed 10 passes in the 2nd half for 124 yards. So obviously it wasn't an Andy problem, it was a game plan problem.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Oh yeah. The game where Jay Gruden decided to avoid AJ like the plague in the first half? Andy was 4-10 for 3 yards at halftime due to Jay's brilliant game plan and several drops by Gresham.

Andy actually completed 10 passes in the 2nd half for 124 yards. So obviously it wasn't an Andy problem, it was a game plan problem.

We have more receivers then AJ. Are you saying if AJ gets injured or is not on the lineup then Dalton can't play?

I give more credit to Dalton then you. Dalton should not need AJ to be a good QB.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

We have more receivers then AJ. Are you saying if AJ gets injured or is not on the lineup then Dalton can't play?

I give more credit to Dalton then you. Dalton should not need AJ to be a good QB.

He doesn't necessarily need AJ. He just needs competent receivers. A 6th round rookie WR and a TE with a case of stone hands don't qualify. We also don't get RBs involved in the passing game.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

We have more receivers then AJ. Are you saying if AJ gets injured or is not on the lineup then Dalton can't play?

I give more credit to Dalton then you. Dalton should not need AJ to be a good QB.

This will have to happen for the Bengals to contend, unless they find the next Adrian Peterson in this draft.

Dalton needs serious work on his fundamentals, the fundamentals that good pass rushes scare him to forget I guess.

IMO he can do it, there is nothing physically holding him back because other QBs with similar attributes have been very successful.

He is going to have to work on it because with his lack of a cannon arm/speed/overall athletic ability his fundamentals will have to be spot on, every game.

The only thing that worries me about it is Whit said he is very stubborn and doesn't like to be wrong.

That could be a problem (though I don't think it will).

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

He doesn't necessarily need AJ. He just needs competent receivers. A 6th round rookie WR and a TE with a case of stone hands don't qualify. We also don't get RBs involved in the passing game.

Please make up your mind. I said...

Originally Posted by BengalYankee
Aren't you forgetting the last game???

@ Houston:

Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT

Andy Dalton14/30 127 0 1

You said ....

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake
Oh yeah. The game where Jay Gruden decided to avoid AJ like the plague in the first half? Andy was 4-10 for 3 yards at halftime due to Jay's brilliant game plan and several drops by Gresham.

Andy actually completed 10 passes in the 2nd half for 124 yards. So obviously it wasn't an Andy problem, it was a game plan problem.

I said ....

Originally Posted by BengalYankee
We have more receivers then AJ. Are you saying if AJ gets injured or is not on the lineup then Dalton can't play?

I give more credit to Dalton then you. Dalton should not need AJ to be a good QB.

Now you say...

"He doesn't necessarily need AJ. He just needs competent receivers. A 6th round rookie WR and a TE with a case of stone hands don't qualify. We also don't get RBs involved in the passing game. "

Go back to your first statement where you said we AVOIDED AJ. Read carefully, what I wrote IF AJ GETS INJURED OR IS NOT ON THE LINEUP, then Dalton can't play???

That means without AJ in the lineup we should expect the stats he put up @Houston in the future regardless if we have a 6th round rookie WR or a Two-time Pro Bowl TE????

Think about what you said, if not for AJ in the lineup we should expect the results @Houston???? If we did not start passing to AJ in the seond half then Dalton would not even have these stats???

Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT

Andy Dalton14/30 127 0 1

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Please make up your mind. I said...



You said ....



I said ....



Now you say...

"He doesn't necessarily need AJ. He just needs competent receivers. A 6th round rookie WR and a TE with a case of stone hands don't qualify. We also don't get RBs involved in the passing game. "

Go back to your first statement where you said we AVOIDED AJ. Read carefully, what I wrote IF AJ GETS INJURED OR IS NOT ON THE LINEUP, then Dalton can't play???

That means without AJ in the lineup we should expect the stats he put up @Houston in the future regardless if we have a 6th round rookie WR or a Two-time Pro Bowl TE????

Think about what you said, if not for AJ in the lineup we should expect the results @Houston???? If we did not start passing to AJ in the seond half then Dalton would not even have these stats???

Passing CP/AT YDS TD INT

Andy Dalton14/30 127 0 1

It's pretty simple BY. Our other receiver sukk. If Andy were to have any success against the Houston Texans defense, it wasn't coming by throwing to Marvin friggin Jones and stone hands Gresham. It was going to have to come through AJ (our only competent receiver). What's so hard to understand about that? We instead tried to get Gresham involved, and he failed miserably. Is that Andy's fault as well?

To answer your question, yes. If we had no AJ Green in the lineup, start a 6th round rookie, a 5'7" gadget player and a TE who drops 80% of his targets, then yes, we should expect 14/30 against one of the NFL's best defenses on the road.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

To answer your question, yes. If we had no AJ Green in the lineup, start a 6th round rookie, a 5'7" gadget player and a TE who drops 80% of his targets, then yes, we should expect 14/30 against one of the NFL's best defenses on the road.

Ok thank you, for the record you are saying without AJ in the lineup Dalton can't play against top defenses on the road, gotcha

[Go Cards]

If Gresham holds on to these hot read passes ?

It would have then set up AJ and we would not be having these arguments.

It is not that AJ was forgotten. But they were trying to alleviate some of the coverage from him.

Dalton is good but does not have the cannon to throw into double coverage all day with success yet.

Greshams WD-40 hands on this day hurt the offense big time. imo

Just as Maualuga hurt the defense.