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  #701  
Old 01-24-2013, 02:59 PM
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  #702  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Our offense needs to be a little more than just "throw it to Green" or "BJGE up the middle".
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  #703  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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What logic is that? That you have to be able to throw the ball beyond 15 yards with accuracy and timing to be an effective NFL QB? Let me ask you this, Henry. How would you rate Dalton's accuracy on intermediate and deep routes?

Awesome
Good
Average
Poor
Terrible

Now, how imporant do you think having an intermediate and deep game is to a modern day NFL offense?

Extrmely important
important
neutral
somewhat important
Not at all important

I would say Dalton is poor with those throws and that type of game is extremely important. So there is the construct of my logic....and being able to put the ball into tight windows isnt being a bad *** and spectacular...that is what you have to be able to do to be a great NFL QB. It's not like guys are running around wide open. Many times you have to fit the ball in that window. You been watching the playoffs, right? Have you seen the throws that are being made on a regular basis? Now ask yourself, with all honesty, would Dalton of hit that? If Dalton is able to throw with more accuracy v. the Texans the Bengals likely advance (they would've likely got destroyed by NE but you never know).

TO the Steve Young point he was a little before my time. He played when I was a little kid. I know he was amazing w San Fran but I always undestood his story to be that he was extremely raw but increadibly athletic. I did not know that Steve Young was considered to be limited as a passer.

You know else is a good guy w limited arm talent?

Colt McCoy
Ty Detmer
Koy Detmer
Tim Tebow
John Kitna
Bruce Gradkowski
Charlie Batch
Curtis Painter
McCelroy (JEts back up from Bama)
John Redman

You get the point...pretty much 90% of guys carrying clipboards since Steve Young's time fall into this category. The other back up QB's are guys like Kaepernick or Ryan Mallett that have extreme talent but are in need of developing. Furthermore, Drew Brees does not have limited downfield accuracy. He is one of the most accurate passers that I have ever seen...and he can put it anywhere on the field. I'm sure many would argue with you that Steve Young had limitations throwing the ball.
His intermediate accuracy is good, his deep average....at this point. Like I've been trying to tell you guys, as long as the offense is AJ or bust the windows he's working with will be squeezed more tightly. In a more balanced attack with other receiving threats those windows will get bigger and that accuracy could well get much better as he is able to target his throws more directly without fear of ints.

All those dudes you mentioned are straight up scrubs except for Kitna and to a lesser degree, Batch, when he was much younger. Bringing them up is beyond ridiculous. Dalton, in a very limited offense with an as yet unproven OC (all we know for sure is that he's better than Brat) has more than proven himself MUCH better than all those guys. And considering the limits of the talent around him, that was no small feat. A lesser QB would quickly have gone down the same road as all those bums in the same situation.

Also, we're not talking about the 50's bud. Young was the best QB of the early to mid 90's and he couldn't throw the ball 60 yards. He was a good scrambler but he was a lot closer to Dalton mobility wise than he was to a CK who runs what, a 4.4. That's awesome, but that don't mean that Dalton can't get the job done.

Also, I never questioned Brees arm strength but it is worth noting that SD let him go and then he got with probably the best offensive coach in the league and THEN he became a stud, yet another example ya'll won't acknowledge.

I don't wanna be mean or anything, but dam, I think there's a certain "madden generation" factor poppin off here. It's all or nothing with you guys, and it's all about the QB, the dude who's winning the SB right now or you stink. No patience, no perspective, no context, just tunnel vision for what appears to be "the new sexy QB".

Well, I'm tellin ya sonny ......Just wait, the other pieces of a team are far more important than you guys are allowing for.

You do realize that the QB is more reliant on the pieces around him than any other position in team sports right??? You realize that time and again, the same QBs have looked terrible at one time and great at others?? I'm not talking about single games either, I'm talking about good years to bad years, good stretches of their career to bad stretches.

That's a fact that can't be denied and the examples are endless but they go unacknowledged becuz to acknowledge them would completely derail your whole "our QB must stink if we don't win the SB thought process".

The Detmers?? Really?? Dalton is a firmly established starting QB on a team that has made the playoffs in both his years here. He went for an 80 rating as a rookie 87 this year. Marino's lifetime rating was 87, you realize that?? It's an efficiency rating and all relative so don't try and put it off on "oh them were the olden days".

It is what it is, Dalton is clearly way better than the dudes you're trying to compare him to and you're talking like those defending him are the crazy ones.

Curtis Painter, really???

And also, Mallet is nothing like CK, no mobility whatsoever. Without a fantastic OLine that dude won't do squat in this league, he can't move at all.
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  #704  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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His intermediate accuracy is good, his deep average....at this point. Like I've been trying to tell you guys, as long as the offense is AJ or bust the windows he's working with will be squeezed more tightly. In a more balanced attack with other receiving threats those windows will get bigger and that accuracy could well get much better as he is able to target his throws more directly without fear of ints.

All those dudes you mentioned are straight up scrubs except for Kitna and to a lesser degree, Batch, when he was much younger. Bringing them up is beyond ridiculous. Dalton, in a very limited offense with an as yet unproven OC (all we know for sure is that he's better than Brat) has more than proven himself MUCH better than all those guys. And considering the limits of the talent around him, that was no small feat. A lesser QB would quickly have gone down the same road as all those bums in the same situation.

Also, we're not talking about the 50's bud. Young was the best QB of the early to mid 90's and he couldn't throw the ball 60 yards. He was a good scrambler but he was a lot closer to Dalton mobility wise than he was to a CK who runs what, a 4.4. That's awesome, but that don't mean that Dalton can't get the job done.

Also, I never questioned Brees arm strength but it is worth noting that SD let him go and then he got with probably the best offensive coach in the league and THEN he became a stud, yet another example ya'll won't acknowledge.

I don't wanna be mean or anything, but dam, I think there's a certain "madden generation" factor poppin off here. It's all or nothing with you guys, and it's all about the QB, the dude who's winning the SB right now or you stink. No patience, no perspective, no context, just tunnel vision for what appears to be "the new sexy QB".

Well, I'm tellin ya sonny ......Just wait, the other pieces of a team are far more important than you guys are allowing for.

You do realize that the QB is more reliant on the pieces around him than any other position in team sports right??? You realize that time and again, the same QBs have looked terrible at one time and great at others?? I'm not talking about single games either, I'm talking about good years to bad years, good stretches of their career to bad stretches.

That's a fact that can't be denied and the examples are endless but they go unacknowledged becuz to acknowledge them would completely derail your whole "our QB must stink if we don't win the SB thought process".

The Detmers?? Really?? Dalton is a firmly established starting QB on a team that has made the playoffs in both his years here. He went for an 80 rating as a rookie 87 this year. Marino's lifetime rating was 87, you realize that?? It's an efficiency rating and all relative so don't try and put it off on "oh them were the olden days".

It is what it is, Dalton is clearly way better than the dudes you're trying to compare him to and you're talking like those defending him are the crazy ones.

Curtis Painter, really???

And also, Mallet is nothing like CK, no mobility whatsoever. Without a fantastic OLine that dude won't do squat in this league, he can't move at all.

Agree with this entire thread except comparing Steve Youngs mobility to Daltons. They may be similar in 40 times, personally do not know.

But Steve Young would have been drafted as a RB if he was not such a great QB according to scouts, and been a darn good one too, imo.
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  #705  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

What? I went away from Jungle Noise for two days and this stinkin' thread is still going on? Unbelievable!

Cincinnati drafted Andy Dalton.

San Francisco drafted Colin Kaepernick.

Both of these moves were the correct ones for their respective teams.
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  #706  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Agree with this entire thread except comparing Steve Youngs mobility to Daltons. They may be similar in 40 times, personally do not know.

But Steve Young would have been drafted as a RB if he was not such a great QB according to scouts, and been a darn good one too, imo.
Perhaps as a young fella, he was faster when he was putting up a 65 rating in Tampa. In his years in San Fran, he'd take off on ya, but his speed was nowhere near the blazing variety that CK has. That's why I said, speed wise, he was closer to Dalton although he was definitely a better overall runner. At the same time, it's not like Dalton isn't a decent runner, he just needs to pick his spots when to take off better.
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  #707  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:19 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/
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  #708  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/
But they aren't this amazing pass blocking line though; they aren't even in the top 10 (11th).

Run blocking, they are phenomenally adept, arguably the best ever run blocking line, but pass bocking guys are giving them way too much credit.
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  #709  
Old 02-01-2013, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Steve Young “jealous” of what Kaepernick has to work with

“He’s got a lot of great weapons with the best offensive line maybe since the 2000 Rams, and maybe then since the ’92 or ’93 Cowboys,” Young said, via Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com. “I mean, this offensive line is well ahead of most everybody else. That dictates terms both for Alex [Smith] and for Colin Kaepernick. And then you’ve got Frank [Gore] and you have weapons, and Vernon [Davis], and now you have this pistol.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-to-work-with/
Whooooo.....umm....damn, what's that word.. Oh yeah
Who cares?
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  #710  
Old 02-01-2013, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Whooooo.....umm....damn, what's that word.. Oh yeah
Who cares?
Apparantly the people in the other 11 pages of this thread.
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  #711  
Old 02-01-2013, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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I want to add that catch radius is a BIG factor in evaluating a WR.

People understand that throws are going to be off target against NFL pressure because, well, its hard to throw with some big dude chasing you.

I don't understand the physical differences between Dalton and Brees.

What physical traits does Brees have that Dalton doesn't?

I only see that Brees fundamentals and footwork are impeccable and Dalton's, not so much.

Somebody brought up Kitna as a reference but I always read, at least once a year, that Kitna was limited because he had unusually small hands.

I haven't read that Dalton has that problem and I have not studied his hands.

I think I understand what kind of QB Dalton is and I think he could have similar success to Drew Brees if in a similar system.

Remember when Brees stunk in San Diego?

IMO, Sean Payton turned him into one of the best system QBs out there.

The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.
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  #712  
Old 02-01-2013, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Just to let this thread regulars know.....If CK wins the SB or not that alone wont be enough to get on a high horse and say either is better or worse. Idc if CK has the worst game ever, continue to take full body of work and other factors to mind when debating. I just dont want some kids busting in this thread if SF wins yelling "SF won the SB so CK is better than Dalton!!!!" Like NO, the 49ers are better than the Bengals. On the flipside if they lose dont come in here like "Yep they lost CK is trash". Because obviously that isnt true
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.
How long did it take for Brees to become a surgeon though?

He made one start as a rookie, so the Chargers let him sit and learn.

Then in his next 2 seasons, he went 10-17 as starter while completing 59.5% of his passes and throwing only 28 TD's to 31 INT's.

That was with Ladainian Tomlinson as his RB.

The light didn't come on for Brees until his 4th season.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:14 PM
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The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.
What team do you coach?

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Old 02-01-2013, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Prepare for Dalton to have a huge jump this year. The progressions from year 2 to year 3 is significant for the good ones. I think Dalton can put up MVP numbers if we find him an explosive 2 opposite AJ.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:38 AM
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bengals Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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But they aren't this amazing pass blocking line though; they aren't even in the top 10 (11th).

Run blocking, they are phenomenally adept, arguably the best ever run blocking line, but pass bocking guys are giving them way too much credit.
I feel like 11th pass blocking, and 4th in rushing yards (3rd in YPC) still equates to one hell of a good offensive line. Certainly good enough to make one look better rather than worse. Heck, it made Alex Smith look good.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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How long did it take for Brees to become a surgeon though?

.....
Fair point. Brees was bad enough in his 3rd year that the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers and Brees likely wouldn't have even played his 4th year (which ended up being his breakout year) except that Rivers held out of training camp his rookie year and only signed right before preseason.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:16 AM
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Fair point. Brees was bad enough in his 3rd year that the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers and Brees likely wouldn't have even played his 4th year (which ended up being his breakout year) except that Rivers held out of training camp his rookie year and only signed right before preseason.
I bet they're regretting that decision now.

Not saying Rivers is a bad QB, but you gotta believe they would've won a SB if they'd kept Drew Brees there with LT, Gates and VJax.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:49 AM
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bengals Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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Prepare for Dalton to have a huge jump this year. The progressions from year 2 to year 3 is significant for the good ones. I think Dalton can put up MVP numbers if we find him an explosive 2 opposite AJ.
I keep seeing MANY equating progression of Dalton to another WR. Not saying it would not help but it seems that many on these boards have lost all focus on what a good running game means to an offense. As I have stated before ....I applaud Benny for what he did with the skillset that he has but let's be realistic he does not threaten teams in the open field.

Benny does not threaten teams in the screen game. He does not threaten teams as an underneath receiving option. These things as much if not possibly more open up the rest of the offense. Having a back that can do these things I feel is more important to the progression of Dalton and more importantly this offense than yet another receiver.

Just like a QB develops so do WRs. Sanu and Jones both flashed the talent it takes to be threats at this level. Gresham merely becomes more consistent. We as well have a kid in Orson Charles that I believe was greatly under utilized.

In short I believe the real progression of this offense lies in the ability of this offense to threaten defenses on the ground on a consistent basis.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:18 AM
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I keep seeing MANY equating progression of Dalton to another WR. Not saying it would not help but it seems that many on these boards have lost all focus on what a good running game means to an offense. As I have stated before ....I applaud Benny for what he did with the skillset that he has but let's be realistic he does not threaten teams in the open field.

Benny does not threaten teams in the screen game. He does not threaten teams as an underneath receiving option. These things as much if not possibly more open up the rest of the offense. Having a back that can do these things I feel is more important to the progression of Dalton and more importantly this offense than yet another receiver.

Just like a QB develops so do WRs. Sanu and Jones both flashed the talent it takes to be threats at this level. Gresham merely becomes more consistent. We as well have a kid in Orson Charles that I believe was greatly under utilized.

In short I believe the real progression of this offense lies in the ability of this offense to threaten defenses on the ground on a consistent basis.
I agree...you mean an actual WC back.

And its not a 1 size fits all solution. A back or a receiver help. A legit running game helps more as we didn't have that much of the year...which doesn't really get talked about much. Dalton gets the blame for whatever reason.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

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The two Brees traits that make him FAR superior to Dalton are:

1. His footwork in the pocket

and

2. His ability to throw a very accurate, tight spiral, no matter the pass.

Brees is a surgeon. Dalton is not Brees.
My point was that Brees wasn't always a surgeon.

He was very inaccurate his first few years.

Both can be worked on and we will see how dedicated young Dalton is at his craft.

More weapons can only help Dalton but if he is delivering inaccurate passes to them it won't matter.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:44 AM
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I agree...you mean an actual WC back.

And its not a 1 size fits all solution. A back or a receiver help. A legit running game helps more as we didn't have that much of the year...which doesn't really get talked about much. Dalton gets the blame for whatever reason.
At some point during a deep playoff run a good defense is going to force Dalton to throw the football.

That's what good defenses do, try to expose the offenses weakness and make them win by that weakness.

If Dalton doesn't improve HIS game this team will not take the next step.

I'm all for getting Andy some help, and I'm not blaming Andy for anything, but he needs a lot of improvement in HIS game or new weapons will be a waste.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

Why won't this thread die
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:59 AM
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Why won't this thread die

Because you posted.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:06 AM
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Because you posted.
Touché
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