Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Ok thank you, for the record you are saying without AJ in the lineup Dalton can't play against top defenses on the road, gotcha

With the current offensive players? No. Probably not. But even Drew Brees would look like crap throwing it to Gresham and a 6th round rookie.

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

Ok thank you, for the record you are saying without AJ in the lineup Dalton can't play against top defenses on the road, gotcha

Yes, Dalton clearly can't compete without AJ Green against a top defense. Ever.

Just admit you hate Andy Dalton so we can move on, because at this point you're grasping for straws and have absolutely nothing.

[gardner30]

What I want to know is was totally AJ Green off limits to throw to in the 1st half?

Why couldn't Dalton go through his progressions and find AJ instead of throwing into traffic for Gresham and Jones?

Did someone tell Andy "Do Not Throw to AJ What so Ever"?

I would like to think that AJ was merely not featured in the 1st half, meaning not the first read.

If that is the case, and it might very well be, young Dalton has more issues than we think scanning the field and reading defenses.

Lots to work on.

Somebody will surely counter with "he was under constant pressure so he didn't have time to go through his reads".

While he was under pressure at times, this really wasn't the case.

If you look at the highlights on NFL.com of the throws that Dalton missed, he really wasn't under that much pressure.

[Millz]

Im sure this has been mentioned (not reading thru the thread), but if KP was drafted by us, who actually thinks he would be having the same success as he is with 49rs?

I am thinking if we had him, he would be forced to play under center like Dalton in a very pro-style west coast offense as there would be no such thing as the pistol formation here. We would still be a quite vanilla offense as KP's running ability would only be used as a last resort thing like running away from the pass rush. I am not saying he would be worse or the same as Dalton is here, but I bet anything he wouldn't be as good as he has been, and definitely wouldn't be as much of a rising star as he is right now.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by gardner30

What I want to know is was totally AJ Green off limits to throw to in the 1st half?
....
Why couldn't Dalton go through his progressions and find AJ instead of throwing into traffic for Gresham and Jones?....

Well, if Gresham, for example, is the primary receiver and you've been told that his matchup is a good one for the team, then the QB will throw it to him even if he's covered as long as it's single coverage. I think that's what you'll see if you watch the first half ... throws to Gresham in single coverage where the Texans DB (I believe it was Quinn most of the time) simply got the best of the matchup or Gresham couldn't come up with the catch. So, IMO, given that the game plan was to work the matchups Gresham was getting there's really not a whole lot of ways to go from that to blaming Andy for not throwing the ball at AJ. Also, I believe there were at least 2 or 3 screen passes called in the first half if memory serves me correctly, and on a screen pass no QB goes through any progression ... you either throw it to the RB or throw it away because everybody else, WRs included, is blocking and not looking for the ball.

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

How long did it take for Brees to become a surgeon though?

He made one start as a rookie, so the Chargers let him sit and learn.

Then in his next 2 seasons, he went 10-17 as starter while completing 59.5% of his passes and throwing only 28 TD's to 31 INT's.

That was with Ladainian Tomlinson as his RB.

The light didn't come on for Brees until his 4th season.

Brees was extremely accurate in Joe Tiller's spread offense at Purdue. He made collegiate stars out of several non-names, including Vinnie Sutherland. I would argue the "light" for Brees was always on, but his early career struggles were the result of adjusting to the Pro level and Norv Turner's overrated offense. Norv was inflexible, and didn't tailor the offense to the strengths of Brees. Sean Payton didn't make the same mistake. The shoulder injury was the nail in the coffin for Drew in SD, and ultimately, the best thing for his career. Dalton has never shown the kind of accuracy or footwork of Drew BRees in college or the NFL. I'm not saying this to be a jerk; its simply the truth.

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by jack1953

What team do you coach?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

You guys don't take to points differing from your own, do you? You can do better than a lame retort; or wait, maybe you can't.

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by gardner30

My point was that Brees wasn't always a surgeon.

He was very inaccurate his first few years.

Both can be worked on and we will see how dedicated young Dalton is at his craft.

More weapons can only help Dalton but if he is delivering inaccurate passes to them it won't matter.

I'll agree with you here. Brees took it to another level once he went to NO. I would argue that Brees was highly accurate dating back to Purdue and Joe Tiller's spread offense. He struggle a bit in Norv Turner's offense, and then got hurt, making it easy to shove him out and promote Rivers. As I mentioned in another post, I think Norv Turner is highly overrated. His offense was great in Dallas, but he had a half dozen Hall of Fame guys on it in key positions. His offenses have been decent in SD, but they've benefited from playing in arguably the weakest division in the NFL over that time period, unless you make a case for the NFC West over the same time-frame. Norv has one style of offense, virtually the same one as in Dallas. It's not the style to maximize Drew Brees' talents.

More weapons will help Dalton. But Dalton has to help them by moving in the pocket better and not freaking out at the first sign of pressure. He exhibited this behavior far too often over the second half of the season. His arm strength will always be a limitation. He can counter it by improving his footwork and ability to hit secondary/tertiary targets with on-time throws.

[Aj Dalton]

Well...Okay maybe we should have picked kaperdick,

[THEBURG]

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by t3r3e3

Brees was extremely accurate in Joe Tiller's spread offense at Purdue. He made collegiate stars out of several non-names, including Vinnie Sutherland. I would argue the "light" for Brees was always on, but his early career struggles were the result of adjusting to the Pro level and Norv Turner's overrated offense. Norv was inflexible, and didn't tailor the offense to the strengths of Brees. Sean Payton didn't make the same mistake. The shoulder injury was the nail in the coffin for Drew in SD, and ultimately, the best thing for his career. Dalton has never shown the kind of accuracy or footwork of Drew BRees in college or the NFL. I'm not saying this to be a jerk; its simply the truth.

1. So I guess Dalton needs time to adjust to the pro level too, right?

2. Norv Turner was Brees' OC for one season. His rookie season. In all 4 seasons with Brees as the starter in SD, Cam Cameron was his OC.

Also, Brees had a 104.8 passer rating in his 4th season...in SD. So it's not like he became a great passer in NO.

He just needed a few seasons to perfect his game. Dalton needs time as well. He's already shown a ton of promise by throwing 47 TDs in his first 2 seasons.

[eoxyod]

Aaaand in the biggest of stages, there were plenty of moments with Kaepernick absolutely ballin. This includes the late Gore run, which was created by Suggs focusing on the QB.

[McC]

Andy's our guy and I like him and support him. But CK is the better player and will always be the better player. He has the cool and the presence and physical tools Andy could only ever dream of.

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

Yes, Dalton clearly can't compete without AJ Green against a top defense. Ever.

Just admit you hate Andy Dalton so we can move on, because at this point you're grasping for straws and have absolutely nothing.

I don't hate him at all and I challenge you to find me criticize him. I am the one who said Dalton doesn't need AJ to be a good QB.

Originally Posted by BengalYankee
We have more receivers then AJ. Are you saying if AJ gets injured or is not on the lineup then Dalton can't play?

I give more credit to Dalton then you. Dalton should not need AJ to be a good QB.

Other's will say that Dalton is too short, has happy feet, or other critism of Dalton. You won't find that with me. If someone says that Dalton got us to the playoff in 2011 and 2012 and I respond the Defense is the common thread that got us into the playoffs in 2009, 2011 and 2012. All of a sudden I am criticizing Dalton. That is the problem with some, if you don't say 100% nice things about Dalton then you hate him.

I try to give a fair and honest comparison of Dalton to other QB's in the NFL and if I say Colin or Russel or Cam is better then Dalton it is not because I hate Dalton, it is because I think those other QB's are better. Notice, I did not say Luck or RG3 was better then Dalton, however, I am sure that the fans of Indianapolis and Washington prefer their respected QB's over Dalton.

I am just not drinking his juice, like many here are. He can do no wrong for some of you and that is fine since this is a Bengals website and all. But it is ignorant to say that Dalton is better then Colin. And I don't care what anybody says Dalton is the 3rd best QB in the AFC North.

[Aj Dalton]

We should run the pistol offense too. At the combine Dalton actually ran a 4.50 40 yard dash...kaperdick ran a 4.53. We've seen dalton streaking up the middle for TD many times right? Change his number from 14 to 7 so he look more like running qb too.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by McC

Andy's our guy and I like him and support him. But CK is the better player and will always be the better player. He has the cool and the presence and physical tools Andy could only ever dream of.

But he's just as afraid and he made a ton of bad decisions tonight.

2nd and goal, your boys are blocking for you: WTF do you pass to a covered man when you can run?


Andy would've run.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by t3r3e3

Brees was extremely accurate in Joe Tiller's spread offense at Purdue. He made collegiate stars out of several non-names, including Vinnie Sutherland. I would argue the "light" for Brees was always on, but his early career struggles were the result of adjusting to the Pro level and Norv Turner's overrated offense. Norv was inflexible, and didn't tailor the offense to the strengths of Brees. Sean Payton didn't make the same mistake. The shoulder injury was the nail in the coffin for Drew in SD, and ultimately, the best thing for his career. Dalton has never shown the kind of accuracy or footwork of Drew BRees in college or the NFL. I'm not saying this to be a jerk; its simply the truth.

Norv Turner became SD's HC in 07. He was Brees' OC for his rookie season only and Brees only threw 27 passes. Brees' early struggles had nothing to do with Turner.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

But he's just as afraid and he made a ton of bad decisions tonight.

2nd and goal, your boys are blocking for you: WTF do you pass to a covered man when you can run?


Andy would've run.

Yeah, he was looking pretty awful.. and lets be honest.. before the power outage, it was 28-6 and was in the process of getting entirely out of hand... normally QBs don't get 70 minutes to re-right themselves in the middle of a game.

It's not like the 49ers are great because of him. They were a 13-3 team last year, and won a playoff game with Alex Smith as their QB. Heck, Alex Smith had them at 6-2 this year before CK took over. All he had to do was go 3-4 with a team that went 13-3 last season in order to have a winning season. (I don't count the tie for either. It was a shared game.)

He had some good play in the playoffs, and some bad play. Lets be honest though, he has a great TE, a great running game, a great offensive line, a great defense with the best LBing corps in the league. It's not like he has to do a ton in order to look good... heck, Alex Smith had a 104.1 QB Rating this year before CK took over, which is higher than what CK finished with. He threw for 10 TDs in 7 starts, with 4 of them coming in 1 game. He had 4 fumbles in one game against the Pats.

To put it in perspective.. he had a game where he threw for 185 yards and 0 TDs.. and the 49ers won 27-13. That tells you the kind of team he had around him... now don't get me wrong, I think he's a pretty good QB and should get better.. but by no means do I think CK stands for Christ's Kid like some people apparently do. Nor do I think he'd do any better than Dalton has done with the team Dalton has around him. I'll take Andy every time.

[Atomic Orange]

I hate this thread

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

Yeah, he was looking pretty awful.. and lets be honest.. before the power outage, it was 28-6 and was in the process of getting entirely out of hand... normally QBs don't get 70 minutes to re-right themselves in the middle of a game.

It's not like the 49ers are great because of him. They were a 13-3 team last year, and won a playoff game with Alex Smith as their QB. Heck, Alex Smith had them at 6-2 this year before CK took over. All he had to do was go 3-4 with a team that went 13-3 last season in order to have a winning season. (I don't count the tie for either. It was a shared game.)

He had some good play in the playoffs, and some bad play. Lets be honest though, he has a great TE, a great running game, a great offensive line, a great defense with the best LBing corps in the league. It's not like he has to do a ton in order to look good... heck, Alex Smith had a 104.1 QB Rating this year before CK took over, which is higher than what CK finished with. He threw for 10 TDs in 7 starts, with 4 of them coming in 1 game. He had 4 fumbles in one game against the Pats.

To put it in perspective.. he had a game where he threw for 185 yards and 0 TDs.. and the 49ers won 27-13. That tells you the kind of team he had around him... now don't get me wrong, I think he's a pretty good QB and should get better.. but by no means do I think CK stands for Christ's Kid like some people apparently do. Nor do I think he'd do any better than Dalton has done with the team Dalton has around him. I'll take Andy every time.

CK played great last night. So did Flacco. SF lost due to a poor start coupled with turnovers and a huge ST gaffe. I think Colin passed for over 300 yards and accounted for three TD's. Both he and Flacco were able to put the ball in small windows where their WR's were 'covered' to extend drives. Also threw some deep passes that were absolutely money but not completed (one to Davis and another to Crabtree). he played great. You don't think so? You think Dalton has proved to be a gamer in the playoffs?

So you'd take Dalton over CK. How about Dalton or any/all of the following:

Luck
RGIII
Wilson

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

But he's just as afraid and he made a ton of bad decisions tonight.

2nd and goal, your boys are blocking for you: WTF do you pass to a covered man when you can run?


Andy would've run.

Are you referring to the rollout? All he had was defenders in front of him and the sideline as far as I remember.

Truck, since your the PFF guy and most people on here seem to really respect PFF...how does PFF rate the two QB's? Do they have some sort of final tally (i.e. Rodger #1, Brady #2 etc etc.)

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Oh yeah. The game where Jay Gruden decided to avoid AJ like the plague in the first half? Andy was 4-10 for 3 yards at halftime due to Jay's brilliant game plan and several drops by Gresham.

Andy actually completed 10 passes in the 2nd half for 124 yards. So obviously it wasn't an Andy problem, it was a game plan problem.

You're looking more foolish the further this thing goes. First you insinuated that Dalton was in fact good with deep throw accuracy by brining out some ridiculous stat. To say that Dalton was anything other than atrocious in the Texans game is ridiculous. He was terrible. No way around it. I think he's been pretty good overall, but that game was brutal.

Just curious for the over the top Dalton guys, what about his game do you think is so good? I mean do you see him as having elite skills throwing short, intermediate, deep? His ability to diagnose, anticipate and put the ball on the spot? Ability to make plays outside of the pocket? Exactly what do you all see in his game that excites you so much about him?

By the same token, is there anything that you think Dalton does better than CK? Because all I'm hearing is that 'if you put Dalton on that SF team he'd be amazing'. Breaking down the players what do you all specifically think that Dalton has over CK? Because I am not seeing anything...and it's not even close.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

CK played great last night. So did Flacco. SF lost due to a poor start coupled with turnovers and a huge ST gaffe. I think Colin passed for over 300 yards and accounted for three TD's. Both he and Flacco were able to put the ball in small windows where their WR's were 'covered' to extend drives. Also threw some deep passes that were absolutely money but not completed (one to Davis and another to Crabtree). he played great. You don't think so? You think Dalton has proved to be a gamer in the playoffs?

So you'd take Dalton over CK. How about Dalton or any/all of the following:

Luck
RGIII
Wilson

It's not hard to pass for over 300 yards when you trail 28-6 all of 11 seconds into the 2nd half. Look up how many QBs pass for 500 yards and actually win the game. Fact of the matter is, CK had sub-60% completion percentage, 1 passing TD, 1 INT (that led to 7 points), and 1 rushing TD. While 2-1 isn't terrible, it's not exactly "playing great".

As for the three QBs you just listed...
1. I think Luck is vastly overrated due to hype and a successful win-loss record... but when you actually stop to look at his stats, he had a SUB 55% completion percentage, which puts him at 37th out of 39 QBs in 2012 to have at least 100 pass attempts. Also his QB rating in the playoffs was lower than Andy Dalton's season completion percentage. That's not even going into the 18 INTs and 10 Fumbles (5 Lost) which if you include rushing TDs, that puts him at 28 TDs, 23 Turnovers... not impressive.

2. I really like Russell Wilson, but I think he's currently at about the same skill level as Dalton, but is just simply asked to do less in order to make his team successful. Lets be honest, BJGE is no Marshawn Lynch.. if Dalton had a RB who could rush for 1,590 yards at 5ypc and double digit rushing TDs, I am sure he'd have equal to or better numbers than Wilson. So I will stick with Dalton in a quasi-wash there.

3. No question that RG3 is easily the most talented QB out of the group. Best QB of the three? Debatable, but sheer talent and athleticism? Not debatable. But he's a 217lb QB who is going to run it 100+ times a season. There's a reason the last time I saw him on a football field, he was crumpled on the ground. There's no guarantee he'll be the same, and even if he comes back 100%, how long until he gets hurt again? That's simply the fate of a light, running focused QB.


Now am I saying that Dalton is amazing? Of course not, but I think he is pretty darn good, just not flashy.. and everyone loves flashy. That's why people on here are always talking about a 3-4 defense.. which is more exciting? Jared Allen getting 22 sacks in 2011 as a 4-3 DE, or Von Miller with 18.5 and Aldon Smith with 19.5 as a 3-4 OLB? Of course everyone's going to say Miller and Smith, because 3-4 OLBs are flashy, while 4-3 DEs just kind of get work done.... but the thing is, there's nothing wrong with just getting it done. Andy Dalton's done a hell of a good job with what he's been given to work with. He only had one legitimate every down WR, and it's not his fault his OC decided that throwing to him for the first 35 minutes of a playoff game sounded silly... nor is it his fault that after BJGE starts running amazingly at first in the playoff game but only gets three carries in the first half.

But now that I read your post, you said how about Dalton "or any/all of the following".. to which I say, yes I will take Luck, Wilson, AND RG3 over Dalton.. because I could take two of the three and outright rob Arizona and Buffalo for all their draft picks.

[BengaliJack]

Originally Posted by Atomic Orange

I hate this thread

Its like a turd in the punchbowl....

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Colin Kaepernick is terrific at running the read-option offense. This fits with the 49ers' philosophy. Therefore, San Francisco was correct when they drafted him.

Andy Dalton is terrific at running the traditional balanced offense. This fits with the Bengals' philosophy. Therefore, Cincinnati was correct when they drafted him.

Comparing Andy Dalton to Colin Kaepernick is impossible because each quarterback operates within completely different offensive systems. If, somehow, they were interchanged, you would see two very frustrated young players trying to run two very frustrated offenses which would result in two sets of very frustrated fan bases.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Fan_in_Kettering

Colin Kaepernick is terrific at running the read-option offense. This fits with the 49ers' philisophy. Therefore, San Francisco was correct when they drafted him.

Andy Dalton is terrific at running the traditional balanced offense. This fits with the Bengals' philosophy. Therefore, Cincinnati was correct when they drafted him.

Comparing Andy Dalton to Colin Kaepernick is impossible because each quarterback operates within completely different offensive systems. If, somehow, they were interchanged, you would see two very frustrated young players trying to run two very frustrated offenses which would result in two sets of very frustrated fan bases.

I don't get the whole 'we can't compare this guy to that guy' logic. We can compare AJ Green to Michael Crabtree, no? They're in different offenses, but one guy is taller, more athletic, able to get the ball at his highest point etc (that would be Green just in case you all couldnt' figure it out).

Yes, they are in different offenses. But one QB is far more physically gifted in every measureable category and throws the ball with better velocity, touch and accuracy. Has also proven to be extremely poised (that would be CK).

Said it before but this thread is like War and Peace...I have no issue w the Bengals drafting AD. He's been very good and it was Gruden's guy so that is good enough for me. But I don't see how anyone if somehow given the choice could prefer the present day version of Dalton to that of CK.

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

It's not hard to pass for over 300 yards when you trail 28-6 all of 11 seconds into the 2nd half. Look up how many QBs pass for 500 yards and actually win the game. Fact of the matter is, CK had sub-60% completion percentage, 1 passing TD, 1 INT (that led to 7 points), and 1 rushing TD. While 2-1 isn't terrible, it's not exactly "playing great".

As for the three QBs you just listed...
1. I think Luck is vastly overrated due to hype and a successful win-loss record... but when you actually stop to look at his stats, he had a SUB 55% completion percentage, which puts him at 37th out of 39 QBs in 2012 to have at least 100 pass attempts. Also his QB rating in the playoffs was lower than Andy Dalton's season completion percentage. That's not even going into the 18 INTs and 10 Fumbles (5 Lost) which if you include rushing TDs, that puts him at 28 TDs, 23 Turnovers... not impressive.

2. I really like Russell Wilson, but I think he's currently at about the same skill level as Dalton, but is just simply asked to do less in order to make his team successful. Lets be honest, BJGE is no Marshawn Lynch.. if Dalton had a RB who could rush for 1,590 yards at 5ypc and double digit rushing TDs, I am sure he'd have equal to or better numbers than Wilson. So I will stick with Dalton in a quasi-wash there.

3. No question that RG3 is easily the most talented QB out of the group. Best QB of the three? Debatable, but sheer talent and athleticism? Not debatable. But he's a 217lb QB who is going to run it 100+ times a season. There's a reason the last time I saw him on a football field, he was crumpled on the ground. There's no guarantee he'll be the same, and even if he comes back 100%, how long until he gets hurt again? That's simply the fate of a light, running focused QB.


Now am I saying that Dalton is amazing? Of course not, but I think he is pretty darn good, just not flashy.. and everyone loves flashy. That's why people on here are always talking about a 3-4 defense.. which is more exciting? Jared Allen getting 22 sacks in 2011 as a 4-3 DE, or Von Miller with 18.5 and Aldon Smith with 19.5 as a 3-4 OLB? Of course everyone's going to say Miller and Smith, because 3-4 OLBs are flashy, while 4-3 DEs just kind of get work done.... but the thing is, there's nothing wrong with just getting it done. Andy Dalton's done a hell of a good job with what he's been given to work with. He only had one legitimate every down WR, and it's not his fault his OC decided that throwing to him for the first 35 minutes of a playoff game sounded silly... nor is it his fault that after BJGE starts running amazingly at first in the playoff game but only gets three carries in the first half.

But now that I read your post, you said how about Dalton "or any/all of the following".. to which I say, yes I will take Luck, Wilson, AND RG3 over Dalton.. because I could take two of the three and outright rob Arizona and Buffalo for all their draft picks.

This is why I like this thread (eventhough plenty ***** about it). It's so subjective. I actually would take Luck over all the young QB's if given the choice. I think he's the best passer of all of them and will ultimately have the best career. Love the others, too. People bring up Brees a lot with Dalton but I'm not seeing it. However, Wilson reminds me ALOT of Brees. Savvy, can buy time and put the ball anywhere on the field. RGIII is also insanely talented. So of course I'd take Luck, CK, WIlson and RGIII over Dalton which is not really a slam to Dalton...more of a compliment to how good those young QB's have been in such a short time.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Yes, they are in different offenses. But one QB is far more physically gifted in every measureable category and throws the ball with better velocity, touch and accuracy. Has also proven to be extremely poised (that would be CK).

But I don't see how anyone if somehow given the choice could prefer the present day version of Dalton to that of CK.

I would.

There are plenty of Colin Kaepernick #7 jerseys at Cardboard Heroes. There's one with your name on it.