Do you really have faith that Dalton is the QB that leads us to a championship?

[Texas 2 Cinci]

[quote=CornerBlitz;2802868]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Simple answer.....Different Era. Look at how many fantastic young QBs are in the league. Prior to a few years ago before all the rule changes you would never have QBs play at such a high level. All you have to do is look at the last 2 drafts.........

Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
RG3
Andrew Luck

All of these QBs have had early success and all of them have taken their teams to the playoffs. This is a growing trend, When you compare Dalton to these QBs do you think Dalton is better? If you do then you my friend have absolutely no understanding of football.

Dalton also selected in the last two drafts and took his team to the playoffs both years.

[CornerBlitz]

[quote=Texas 2 Cinci;2802878]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

Dalton also selected in the last two drafts and took his team to the playoffs both years.

Exactly so you made my point for me. Young QBs are trending upwards so in essence Daltons rookie and 2nd years aren't something out of this world because I just named you 4 QBs that have done similar if not better things.

Now let me ask you a question.

As a Bengals fan would you take Dalton over the aforementioned

Kaep
Russel
Luck
RG3

?

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

Those putrid stats you put up in my opinion make the case for me not you. If you really think that 4 of 10 for 3 yards in the 1st half is acceptable or justified because we do not have a legit #2, then i can say we have a huge disagreement. And no i don't think a legit number 2 would all of a sudden fix things..........I think the problem is Dalton. He is a mediocre QB for the 100 reasons i have already mentioned.

He put up those putrid stats because the game plan featured a TE who can't catch.

Say Gresh makes those catches that he dropped. Now were talking Andy went 7 of 10 for at least 50 yards. The stats likely would've been even better than that because the drives would've kept going. Saying a good #2 wouldn't help Dalton makes it sound like you're in denial btw. No offense CB, cuz we've agreed on a lot of things in the past.

[jack1953]

I know many of you will be disappointed in my decision but this is the last post I will make, be it to agitate or to comment seriously, on these ongoing dreadful beat a dead horse ridiculous threads about Andy Dalton!!!

He is the QB, he will be the QB until Mike Brown feels different, and it makes absolutely no difference what your opinion is or isnt'.

Good night, and

[fredtoast]

[quote=CornerBlitz;2802868]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Simple answer.....Different Era. Look at how many fantastic young QBs are in the league. Prior to a few years ago before all the rule changes you would never have QBs play at such a high level. All you have to do is look at the last 2 drafts.........

Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
RG3
Andrew Luck

All of these QBs have had early success and all of them have taken their teams to the playoffs. This is a growing trend, When you compare Dalton to these QBs do you think Dalton is better? If you do then you my friend have absolutely no understanding of football.

Different era? How the hell is comparing Flaccos numbers from 2011 and 2012 to Daltons numbers from the same years explained by a "different era".

And if rule changes were the explanation then guys like RG3, Kaepernick, and Wilson would still be ranked behind most other veteran QBs because the rule changes should make the vets better also. The fact is that those three guys are just great QBs.

And Luck's season was not nearly as good as any season Dalton has had. Luck only completed 54% of his passes with 18 interceptions and a 74 passer rating. In fact Dalton had more completions of over 40 yards than Luck despite attempting over 100 fewer passes. If you had watched him play you would be throwing him under the bus just like you are with Dalton.

[CornerBlitz]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

He put up those putrid stats because the game plan featured a TE who can't catch.

Say Gresh makes those catches that he dropped. Now were talking Andy went 7 of 10 for at least 50 yards. The stats likely would've been better than that because the drives would've kept going. Saying a good #2 wouldn't help Dalton makes it sound like you're in denial btw. No offense CB, cuz we've agreed on a lot of things in the past.

I am not in denial that we need a #2. I do not however think that a legit #2 would raise his stats by leaps and bounds. Have you seen his stats in his 2 playoff appearances?

0 TD 4 INT, a quarterback rating of 44 and 51.

Playoffs are what truly define whether a QB is good or bad. Did you see the awful throws he was making down field to Green? Those had nothing to do with a number 2 Wideout. If you hit Green on those 2 deep routes those are 14 points. These are the types of things that you see over and over again on Coach Cam. He leaves points on the field.

I don't see what is so hard about comprehending this?

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

I am not in denial that we need a #2. I do not however think that a legit #2 would raise his stats by leaps and bounds. Have you seen his stats in his 2 playoff appearances?

0 TD 4 INT, a quarterback rating of 44 and 51.

Playoffs are what truly define whether a QB is good or bad. Did you see the awful throws he was making down field to Green? Those had nothing to do with a number 2 Wideout. If you hit Green on those 2 deep routes those are 14 points. These are the types of things that you see over and over again on Coach Cam. He leaves points on the field.

I don't see what is so hard about comprehending this?

Deep throws aren't everything, CB. Luck missed more than 2 deep throws in his playoff game and no one here thinks he's a bust. As for playoff performances, Flacco and Big Ben were terrible in their first 2 playoff games. Heck, Flacco was atrocious for his first 5 playoff games. Never mind the fact that we were facing an outstanding defense on the road with a terrible game plan.

[CornerBlitz]

[quote=fredtoast;2802893]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

Different era? How the hell is comparing Flaccos numbers from 2011 and 2012 to Daltons numbers from the same years explained by a "different era".

And if rule changes were the explanation then guys like RG3, Kaepernick, and Wilson would still be ranked behind most other veteran QBs because the rule changes should make the vets better also. The fact is that those three guys are just great QBs.

And Luck's season was not nearly as good as any season Dalton has had. Luck only completed 54% of his passes with 18 interceptions and a 74 passer rating. In fact Dalton had more completions of over 40 yards than Luck despite attempting over 100 fewer passes. If you had watched him play you would be throwing him under the bus just like you are with Dalton.

You want to compare Flacco numbers in 2011 and 2012......fine lets do it in what really matters the playoffs.

15TD 1 INT. Superbowl MVP

Dalton 0 TD 4 INT. 0 wins.

Besides that Flacco has won a playoff game each and every season he has been in the league. If you are so stuck on regular season stats and are attempting to come to the conclusion that their stats were similar therefore they Dalton can be like flacco i get that BUT

you are completely disregarding the Playoffs !!!!!!!

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

Playoffs are what truly define whether a QB is good or bad.

Actually judging a player by two games over two seasons is silly, but I will add this......

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Playoff record in first two seasons as a starter.

Terry Bradshaw.........0-0
Drew Brees...............0-0
John Elway................0-2
Eli Manning................0-1
P. Manning.................0-1
Aaron Rodgers...........0-1
Steve Young...............0-0

.

[CornerBlitz]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Deep throws aren't everything, CB. Luck missed more than 2 deep throws in his playoff game and no one here thinks he's a bust. As for playoff performances, Flacco and Big Ben were terrible in their first 2 playoff games. Heck, Flacco was atrocious for his first 5 playoff games. Never mind the fact that we were facing an outstanding defense on the road with a terrible game plan.

I get that. You are right. You made some really good points. Deep throws aren't everything but when you miss them the way Dalton did it is a glaring terrible memory.

I guess with Flacco you always saw the raw talent that he had which gave you the notion that he could do what he has done the past few seasons. I don't see the raw talent in Dalton, in fact i see a mediocre talent. You see where i'm getting at? A player like RG3 or Kaep there is huge upside.........I don't see that big upside with a player like Dalton.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

I get that. You are right. You made some really good points. Deep throws aren't everything but when you miss them the way Dalton did it is a glaring terrible memory.

I guess with Flacco you always saw the raw talent that he had which gave you the notion that he could do what he has done the past few seasons. I don't see the raw talent in Dalton, in fact i see a mediocre talent. You see where i'm getting at?

He's hit the deep throws before... when he has time. I don't think I saw more raw talent in Flacco than Andy. Flacco has one of the strongest arms in the NFL, but his decision making and other facets of his game were questioned for years. Even this year. All QBs are considered bums until they win the big one. Eli and Flacco were questioned. Then they won a Superbowl(s) and now they're considered elite.

[fredtoast]

[quote=CornerBlitz;2802900]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

You want to compare Flacco numbers in 2011 and 2012......fine lets do it in what really matters the playoffs.

15TD 1 INT. Superbowl MVP

Dalton 0 TD 4 INT. 0 wins.

Besides that Flacco has won a playoff game each and every season he has been in the league. If you are so stuck on regular season stats and are attempting to come to the conclusion that their stats were similar therefore they Dalton can be like flacco i get that BUT

you are completely disregarding the Playoffs !!!!!!!

Flaccos average playoff game performance over his first two seasons...9-20 for 132 yards and a passer rating of 46.5

Dalton's average playoff game.....21-36 for 192 yards and a 48.6 passer rating.

[CornerBlitz]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

He's hit the deep throws before... when he has time. I don't think I saw more raw talent in Flacco than Andy. Flacco has one of the strongest arms in the NFL, but his decision making and other facets of his game were questioned for years. Even this year. All QBs are considered bums until they win the big one. Eli and Flacco were questioned. Then they won a Superbowl(s) and now they're considered elite.

See here is where I disagree.

I never thought Flacco or Eli were bums. I always saw that they were talented QBs that could make every throw on the field. With Dalton it is almost as if the offense is restricted because he can't make certain throws.

I know I keep harping on this point but he leaves so many points on the field with his decision making and his inability to accurately throw the ball down the field. I just wish you had the subscription to coach cam so you could see what i see every game. In the end you do make some good points and I agree that i might be a bit too harsh on Dalton considering how young he is..............BUT the tape doesn't lie and in my opinion he really needs to improve his decision making, pocket awareness, and his deep ball accuracy if we are to ever consider him a Superbowl caliber QB.

Always nice to discuss things with someone as objective and thoughtful as you.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

See here is where I disagree.

I never thought Flacco or Eli were bums. I always saw that they were talented QBs that could make every throw on the field. With Dalton it is almost as if the offense is restricted because he can't make certain throws.

I know I keep harping on this point but he leaves so many points on the field with his decision making and his inability to accurately throw the ball down the field. I just wish you had the subscription to coach cam so you could see what i see every game. In the end you do make some good points and I agree that i might be a bit too harsh on Dalton considering how young he is..............BUT the tape doesn't lie and in my opinion he really needs to improve his decision making, pocket awareness, and his deep ball accuracy if we are to ever consider him a Superbowl caliber QB.

Always nice to discuss things with someone as objective and thoughtful as you.

Thanks. Likewise.

Really all this squabbling over Andy reminds of when Carson demanded a trade and everyone started arguing over his skills or lack thereof. People love to focus on the QB. The one thing most of us can agree on is that the weapons aren't there. No speed back who can catch passes. No number 2 WR. The Center position was a mess.

Lets see if they can get those crucial positions sorted out and upgraded, then if Andy continues performing like he did down the stretch last year, I'll be the first one on here saying he needs to go. Until then, I see too many other problems to pin it all on the QB.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by CornerBlitz

I know I keep harping on this point but he leaves so many points on the field with his decision making and his inability to accurately throw the ball down the field. I just wish you had the subscription to coach cam so you could see what i see every game..

No one is saying that Dalton doesn't make mistakes, but so does every other QB in the league. You are just obsessing over Dalton without turning the same critical eye on all the other QBs in the league.

Dalton has put up good numbers over his first two season, so in order for your theory to be correct we would have to assume that dalton has a supporting cast that is better than 90% of the teams in the league. Because basically you are saying that the rest of the team is performing on an elite level and Dalton is the one holding them back.

[BigPapaKain]

CornerBlitz keeps changing the question, so this thread has become even more of a useless waste of time.

[Bengalzona]

Do I really have faith that Dalton is the QB that leads us to a championship?

No.

I have faith that he is a QB that can contribute just enough at this stage in his career to help put us in position to reach a championship. He's not Peyton or Brady or Brees. He's not even a Luck, RGIII, or Newton. But he doesn't have to be for us to win. That much has been proven over the past two seasons. Moreover, he generally doesn't do stupid stuff to lose games. Considering how young he is, that is big.

He improved this past year from his first year. And I expect he will continue to improve each year as he is a pretty smart and wise kid. As time goes by, we will start relying on him more and more to win games. But he's not a Dan Marino. He is more in the mold of Kenny Anderson. And we can reach the big game with that.

[Kevbo37]

Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, Bob Griese, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, and Doug Williams all won Super Bowls... so yeah.

Simms and Griese's lore have been built up over time, but they are not all-time greats. There's a reason Phil Simms is not (and will never be) in the Pro Football Hall of Fame... because at the end of the day he wasn't that great. Griese was good and is in the Hall, and you have to take into account that he played in a non-throwing era during the 70s. Still... the Dolphins undefeated season was accomplished largely without him, as he was injured for a good portion of the season. His career statistics also do little to suggest he was a dominant QB. Heck, Dalton's are WAY better by comparison at this point (again asterisk for Griese because of the era he played in so in reality it's hard to compare. However, let's be honest nobody's putting Griese in their top-5, top-10, or shoot maybe even their top-25 lists of all-time QBs).

Rypien and Williams were neither anything special themselves when looking at the body of their careers. They benefited greatly by playing for one of the greatest coaches of all-time (Joe Gibbs) and behind one of the greatest offensive-lines of all time (Hogs).

Granted Dilfer, Hostetler, Johnson and McMahon greatly relied on dominant defenses, some more than others (looking at you Dilfer and McMahon). The good news is the Bengals D is trending towards dominance.

In any case this list of name proves that you do not need Peyton Manning, Tom Brady or even Joe Flacco (puke) to win a Super Bowl.

Hypothetically given the option between where Dalton is at in this point in his career compared to the where the names on this list were at similar points in theirs... I gotta say - I think I choose Dalton.

Does that argument promote the greatest vote of confidence ever for Dalton?
No... but does it give credence towards faith?
I'd say: "YES I have faith in Dalton."

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

You are just obsessing over Dalton without turning the same critical eye on all the other QBs in the league.

Exactly. If you obsessively study any non-elite QB with a preconceived notion that he sukks, you will find flaws to harp about. People have obsessed over Dalton's arm since the day he was drafted. When you think there's a problem, you will see a problem. I watched 4 Colts games this year, and Luck misses wide open guys on deep patterns all the time. It's pretty normal though.

Those are low % throws no matter how strong a guys arm is. As I've pointed out before, Andy was top 5 in completion % on throws over 20 yards last year at 42.9%. This year, that % was down to 25%, but that was right in between Mike Vick and Fat Ben. No one accuses those guys of having weak arms.

[Ryan Mc]

I do believe we can win a championship with Dalton, but you are correct in many of your observations about his limitations. He'd need more help than some other QBs to end up winning a Superbowl. A guy like Matt Hasselbeck, comparable in talent level and skill set IMO, went to a Superbowl and was close to winning in a season he had a top-10 defense and a league MVP running back as part of the supporting cast.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I do believe we can win a championship with Dalton, but you are correct in many of your observations about his limitations. He'd need more help than some other QBs to end up winning a Superbowl. A guy like Matt Hasselbeck, comparable in talent level and skill set IMO, went to a Superbowl and was close to winning in a season he had a top-10 defense and a league MVP running back as part of the supporting cast.

Agree. Hasselbeck is an excellent comparison.

[TGISunday]

Trent Dilfer.

Brad (forgethislastname, of Grudens championship team.)

Those guys won championships, its entirely possible.

He's one of 3 qbs to start his 1st 2 seasons the way he has.

How can you definitively answer no?

Flacco ***** year in year out then shines come playoff time.

Anything can happen, just gotta keep improving the rest of the squad as well.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by TGISunday

Trent Dilfer.

Brad (forgethislastname, of Grudens championship team.)

Those guys won championships, its entirely possible.

He's one of 3 qbs to start his 1st 2 seasons the way he has.

How can you definitively answer no?

Flacco ***** year in year out then shines come playoff time.

Anything can happen, just gotta keep improving the rest of the squad as well.

With all the hoopla around Rey Lewis they were talking about that Raven's defense...They only gave up 1 TD for the entire playoffs the year Dilfer won. With the NFL being so offense driven now, cannot see that happening again. Rules have changed. Can't hit the QB...rules favor WR's. It's an offensive league now. Even two 'defensive' teams like the niners and ravens got to the playoffs bc they could score points. So while it wasn't that long ago that Dilfer won, just can't see that scenario happening again. But if there were a team that only allowed one TD throughout the playoffs pretty much any QB with a pulse could win it.

[tottenham fan]

brad johnnson, i saw him play for the london monarchs in the now defunct wlaf

[BengaliJack]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

I do believe we can win a championship with Dalton, but you are correct in many of your observations about his limitations. He'd need more help than some other QBs to end up winning a Superbowl. A guy like Matt Hasselbeck, comparable in talent level and skill set IMO, went to a Superbowl and was close to winning in a season he had a top-10 defense and a league MVP running back as part of the supporting cast.

IMO the Seahawks got robbed by a boatload of bad calls that year. Without the refs help theres a good chance that game goes the other way.