Is Vontaze Burfict best as a MLB or a WLB?

[cin_city4L]

the best part about this dilemma is that if he is moved to MIKE and he doesn't play as well as he did at WILL... then he can move back and continue to be effective where he was effective all season.

if he excels in the middle then I say use him there from then on out because he is a ferocious mother f'er and the dude plays hard, swift and tenacious unlike a certain #58 on this team. if by some chance we draft Te'o at 21 then we have a pretty good chance at solidifying our linebacking core if he pans out to actually be a stud in the pros.

the question is, if Te'o is selected.. where does he end up on the depth chart? WILL? MIKE? SAM?
I've seen talk also of Ogletree being put in the middle too even though he played OLB in Georgias 4-3 scheme. Howard [WILL], Burfict [MLB], and Ogletree [SAM] would look awesome in 2013 and hopefully be a devastating force.

their group nickname could be HBO lol.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by CincyGuy344

WLB Howard or draft pick
MLB Burfict
SLB draft pick or FA I'd really like to see Dion Jordan here

When it comes to SLB many seem to forget we have what amounts to an extra draft pick in a guy named Brandon Joiner. A guy that Zimmer apparently felt good enough about as a prospect that we retained his rights while he served a short prison sentence.

[Bull Durham]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

When it comes to SLB many seem to forget we have what amounts to an extra draft pick in a guy named Brandon Joiner. A guy that Zimmer apparently felt good enough about as a prospect that we retained his rights while he served a short prison sentence.

Joiner is headed for the practice squad at best.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by Bull Durham

Joiner is headed for the practice squad at best.

And you know this how?

[SunsetBengal]

According to this quote from the A look ahead article on the front page, it seems that Vontaze has already been named MLB by the team.

RAVENS (10-6 in 2012)
POJECTED BIG MATCHUP: Bengals MLB Vontaze Burfict vs. Ravens RB Ray Rice.

[djam]

The thread title makes it look like one of those trick questions that has no answer lol. I figure we'll have to actually see him playing at MLB to make any type of judgement on it. I like the idea of it for sure, but if he doesnt play middle as well as he played this year, then he should stay where he's at. Just put him where he thrives the most. I'd be let down if he didnt at least get a look at MLB tho. He seems like a great fit for it.

[BengalRugby]

Ideally, I'd like to see Burfict stick at WILL. He's making plays and being very productive, so why move him and hope is as productive in the middle, and hope the linebacker the Bengals find to replace him can match that production?


Keep him on the weak side and draft a MIKE to hold down the middle. Drafting a new strong side guy wouldn't hurt either.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Ideally, I'd like to see Burfict stick at WILL. He's making plays and being very productive, so why move him and hope is as productive in the middle, and hope the linebacker the Bengals find to replace him can match that production?


Keep him on the weak side and draft a MIKE to hold down the middle. Drafting a new strong side guy wouldn't hurt either.

He was making tackles.. but he wasn't really making plays. It just seemed that way because the Bengals other two starting linebackers were so horrid that just playing sound football was amazing when done in comparison. 1 sack, 2 passes defensed, 0 ints, 0 ffs... to put that in perspective Thomas Howard had 1 sack and 1 passes defensed in just 1 game in 2012. Burfict played solid football, but wasn't really a spectacular WLB. That's because he's a MLB, was signed to be a MLB, got national recognition in college as a MLB, had never played WLB in his life before this year, and only did so because Thomas Howard went down with a season ending injury after one game.

So don't act like he was All Pro at WLB. The guy flew to the ball and was a good tackler, but he wasn't out there intercepting passes, sacking like crazy, forcing fumbles, and defending passes. Why? Because he was playing out of position. Thomas Howard had 30 less tackles in 2011, but had 2 more passes defensed, and 2 more forced fumbles... so it's not exactly hard to find someone to fill in at WLB. Most of his tackles were because Maualuga was worthless anyway... if there's a competent MLB, the WLB shouldn't lead the team in tackles anyway.

[ExtraNirvana]

Wherever Burfict is most comfortable.

[old man]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

When it comes to SLB many seem to forget we have what amounts to an extra draft pick in a guy named Brandon Joiner. A guy that Zimmer apparently felt good enough about as a prospect that we retained his rights while he served a short prison sentence.

I think he makes the team, and I also think he gives Maybin a real run to start. Jointer has no bad habits as of yet. Maymin has plenty.

[BengalRugby]

He was making tackles.. but he wasn't really making plays. It just seemed that way because the Bengals other two starting linebackers were so horrid that just playing sound football was amazing when done in comparison. 1 sack, 2 passes defensed, 0 ints, 0 ffs... to put that in perspective Thomas Howard had 1 sack and 1 passes defensed in just 1 game in 2012. Burfict played solid football, but wasn't really a spectacular WLB. That's because he's a MLB, was signed to be a MLB, got national recognition in college as a MLB, had never played WLB in his life before this year, and only did so because Thomas Howard went down with a season ending injury after one game.

So don't act like he was All Pro at WLB. The guy flew to the ball and was a good tackler, but he wasn't out there intercepting passes, sacking like crazy, forcing fumbles, and defending passes. Why? Because he was playing out of position. Thomas Howard had 30 less tackles in 2011, but had 2 more passes defensed, and 2 more forced fumbles... so it's not exactly hard to find someone to fill in at WLB. Most of his tackles were because Maualuga was worthless anyway... if there's a competent MLB, the WLB shouldn't lead the team in tackles anyway.

He was making tackles, hence the productive comment. He was helping the defense play better, as is evidencd by them allowing 2.4 fewer yards per play when he is on the field, including 7.5 tackles for a loss, hence playmaker.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/po...s-is-unmatched

You seem to be trying to tear down Burfict and looking for every excuse to downplay his contributions. Get over it. Burfict played very well last season and made the defense better.

[Migman]

Originally Posted by bengalsfan2008

Actually, on a run play, the MLB should theoretically be untouched, or if he is blocked, the WLB would be the one making the stop. Like on an iso play run from the i formation. Lets say the MLB gets blocked by an OG or the FB, the SLB for sure would be blocked by either a OG or the TE. That leaves the WLB untouched to come through the gap and stop the RB. Now, SLB's may get blocked a lot of the times, but the good ones are really good at shedding blocks and can still blow up a play in the backfield. We are not talking LOLB or ROLB right now because many outside backers in this league aren't exclusive to just one side.

So yes, Burfict is good in space, but he is also extremely instinctive, which is a HUGE plus for any successful MLB. With that said, I think we should move Burfict over to the middle and draft Ogletree to be our WLB. Judging from Ogletree's highlights, he is one fast LB that should do extremely well in space. As of SLB, I have no idea...Maybe instead of drafting Ogletree, we draft Teo and put him at SLB and have Howard start at WLB. That would be a pretty ideal situation. Teo, minus that final game, was a very good player. People say he reminds them of Rey, to them I say HECK NO. Teo has much higher awareness of where the play is. Rey in college was pretty good, but Teo definitely shows he has a much higher football IQ.

Nail meet head - The MLB & SLB need to be able to shed or avoid blocks. I'm fine with giving him a chance in the middle, but we have to see his ability to get off blocks in the NFL. Not saying he can't, and I feel confident he can do so better than our current MLB!

Nice that we have options at this and other positions.

[Bull Durham]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

He was making tackles.. but he wasn't really making plays. It just seemed that way because the Bengals other two starting linebackers were so horrid that just playing sound football was amazing when done in comparison. 1 sack, 2 passes defensed, 0 ints, 0 ffs... to put that in perspective Thomas Howard had 1 sack and 1 passes defensed in just 1 game in 2012. Burfict played solid football, but wasn't really a spectacular WLB. That's because he's a MLB, was signed to be a MLB, got national recognition in college as a MLB, had never played WLB in his life before this year, and only did so because Thomas Howard went down with a season ending injury after one game.

So don't act like he was All Pro at WLB. The guy flew to the ball and was a good tackler, but he wasn't out there intercepting passes, sacking like crazy, forcing fumbles, and defending passes. Why? Because he was playing out of position. Thomas Howard had 30 less tackles in 2011, but had 2 more passes defensed, and 2 more forced fumbles... so it's not exactly hard to find someone to fill in at WLB. Most of his tackles were because Maualuga was worthless anyway... if there's a competent MLB, the WLB shouldn't lead the team in tackles anyway.

He was making tackles, hence the productive comment. He was helping the defense play better, as is evidencd by them allowing 2.4 fewer yards per play when he is on the field, including 7.5 tackles for a loss, hence playmaker.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/po...s-is-unmatched

You seem to be trying to tear down Burfict and looking for every excuse to downplay his contributions. Get over it. Burfict played very well last season and made the defense better.

Burfict actually made quite a few plays. He wasn't just making tackles.

[ishouldbegm]

he was a beast last year leave him where he was and put better players around him

[old man]

Originally Posted by Bull Durham

Burfict actually made quite a few plays. He wasn't just making tackles.

.

[bengalsfan2008]

judging from Ogletree's videos online, I see an instinctive LB who isn't really strong at the point of attack. He is more of a finesse LB in the mold of Brian Simmons, or dare I say it, Keith Rivers...In this case, Ogletree seems like he would be a great fit for the WLB position, but I don't want the Bengals to draft another LB who isn't strong at the point of attack. I did want him, but i thought more about it and I don't want a repeat of Keith.

[bengalsfan2008]

Originally Posted by cin_city4L

the best part about this dilemma is that if he is moved to MIKE and he doesn't play as well as he did at WILL... then he can move back and continue to be effective where he was effective all season.

if he excels in the middle then I say use him there from then on out because he is a ferocious mother f'er and the dude plays hard, swift and tenacious unlike a certain #58 on this team. if by some chance we draft Te'o at 21 then we have a pretty good chance at solidifying our linebacking core if he pans out to actually be a stud in the pros.

the question is, if Te'o is selected.. where does he end up on the depth chart? WILL? MIKE? SAM?
I've seen talk also of Ogletree being put in the middle too even though he played OLB in Georgias 4-3 scheme. Howard [WILL], Burfict [MLB], and Ogletree [SAM] would look awesome in 2013 and hopefully be a devastating force.

their group nickname could be HBO lol.

No way in heck does Ogletree play SLB. SLB's tend to get blocked a lot and they have to be able to shed blocks. Ogletree does not look like he has the force to easily shed blocks and make tackles. If anything, Burfict in the middle, Howard at will, and Te'o or Minter at SLB. I know both of those players played the middle, but they both shed blocks pretty well and are ferocious in the run game, which would be perfect for our SLB position.

[bengalsfan2008]

Honestly people bag on Te'o because of his fake gf and the Alabama game, but every great player has their bad games too. I'm not declaring Te'o is great or anything, but he is a good player. He is MUCH better than Rey coming out of college. He has much higher awareness of where the play is and has incredible instincts in the run game. Rey was just known as a big hitter and a good blitzer coming out of college, that's it. I was excited to have him when he was drafted, but obviously, we know whats up now. Te'o is lightyears ahead of Rey in terms of block shedding, instincts, and leadership. I would not mind one bit if the Bengals draft him. And another thing...7 INT's...nuff said.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

He was making tackles, hence the productive comment. He was helping the defense play better, as is evidencd by them allowing 2.4 fewer yards per play when he is on the field, including 7.5 tackles for a loss, hence playmaker.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/po...s-is-unmatched

You seem to be trying to tear down Burfict and looking for every excuse to downplay his contributions. Get over it. Burfict played very well last season and made the defense better.

I'm not trying to tear down Burfict at all. I am being honest. Aside from making tackles, he really didn't do a whole ton. He was being very productive, but he wasn't "making plays" as you said. I still think he had a great rookie season, but lets look at this honestly rather than pretending like I am attacking your love child.

He had 127 tackles, 1 sack, 2 pdef, 0 int, 0 ff.... That's not overwhelming. I understand he's a rookie, but he's playing out of position, and didn't make many impact plays. Look at other WLBs in the NFL. I used NFL.com stats for all the numbers, because tackles vary from site to site it seems. This way they're all from the same source.

Jerod Mayo: 147 tackles, 3 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 4 ff
Nick Barnett: 112 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pdef, 0 int, 3 ff
*Zach Brown: 93 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff (2 tds)
Wesley Woodyard: 117 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 6 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff
*Miles Burris: 96 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Lance Briggs: 103 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 11 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff (2 tds)
Sean Weatherspoon: 95 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 pdef, 1 int, 1 ff
*Lavonte David: 139 tackles, 2 sacks, 5 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Jo-lonn Dunbar: 115 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 4 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff

Taking a site's word that those guys are all WLBs... but the point is pretty clear regardless. Burfict wasn't even the 2nd best rookie WLB in the league. He made tackles, not plays.

Now before you go on another tangent about how I am just bashing the kid.. I am a big fan of his. I think he'll be a great MLB in 2013 for the Bengals. I hope he gets a lot of impact plays. I'm rooting for him.... but he wasn't an amazing WLB. He was solid. But I do like how you try to compare 1 game vs 15 games to get that 2.4 yards per play less. Hah. Yes, if I take the worst loss of the season, and compare it to the other 15 games, I bet it'll always come out looking rosy regardless who I plug in there. From that train of thought, Pat Sims and Chris Crocker would be the starting of the world's greatest defense, because they weren't playing Week 1 either.

[Anderson_fan1988]

It's hard to say. I would try him out there in training camp, see how he does. It is his natural position so who knows. With Howard back I don't think he is our WLB because Howard is pretty productive there. If I had to guess i'd say week 1 our starting LB core will be Howard at WLB, Burfict at MLB, and FA/Draft pick as our SLB (with Lamar backing Howard, Skuta backing Burfict, and perhaps Joiner backing our SLB?)

[J24]

SLB- He is a good tackler but he lacks instincts can not cover worth crap.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

I'm not trying to tear down Burfict at all. I am being honest. Aside from making tackles, he really didn't do a whole ton. He was being very productive, but he wasn't "making plays" as you said. I still think he had a great rookie season, but lets look at this honestly rather than pretending like I am attacking your love child.

He had 127 tackles, 1 sack, 2 pdef, 0 int, 0 ff.... That's not overwhelming. I understand he's a rookie, but he's playing out of position, and didn't make many impact plays. Look at other WLBs in the NFL. I used NFL.com stats for all the numbers, because tackles vary from site to site it seems. This way they're all from the same source.

Jerod Mayo: 147 tackles, 3 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 4 ff
Nick Barnett: 112 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pdef, 0 int, 3 ff
*Zach Brown: 93 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff (2 tds)
Wesley Woodyard: 117 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 6 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff
*Miles Burris: 96 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Lance Briggs: 103 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 11 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff (2 tds)
Sean Weatherspoon: 95 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 pdef, 1 int, 1 ff
*Lavonte David: 139 tackles, 2 sacks, 5 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Jo-lonn Dunbar: 115 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 4 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff

Taking a site's word that those guys are all WLBs... but the point is pretty clear regardless. Burfict wasn't even the 2nd best rookie WLB in the league. He made tackles, not plays.

Now before you go on another tangent about how I am just bashing the kid.. I am a big fan of his. I think he'll be a great MLB in 2013 for the Bengals. I hope he gets a lot of impact plays. I'm rooting for him.... but he wasn't an amazing WLB. He was solid. But I do like how you try to compare 1 game vs 15 games to get that 2.4 yards per play less. Hah. Yes, if I take the worst loss of the season, and compare it to the other 15 games, I bet it'll always come out looking rosy regardless who I plug in there. From that train of thought, Pat Sims and Chris Crocker would be the starting of the world's greatest defense, because they weren't playing Week 1 either.

Weatherspoon's an SLB.

[BengalRugby]

I'm not trying to tear down Burfict at all. I am being honest. Aside from making tackles, he really didn't do a whole ton. He was being very productive, but he wasn't "making plays" as you said. I still think he had a great rookie season, but lets look at this honestly rather than pretending like I am attacking your love child.

He had 127 tackles, 1 sack, 2 pdef, 0 int, 0 ff.... That's not overwhelming. I understand he's a rookie, but he's playing out of position, and didn't make many impact plays. Look at other WLBs in the NFL. I used NFL.com stats for all the numbers, because tackles vary from site to site it seems. This way they're all from the same source.

Jerod Mayo: 147 tackles, 3 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 4 ff
Nick Barnett: 112 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pdef, 0 int, 3 ff
*Zach Brown: 93 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff (2 tds)
Wesley Woodyard: 117 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 6 pdef, 3 int, 1 ff
*Miles Burris: 96 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 3 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Lance Briggs: 103 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 11 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff (2 tds)
Sean Weatherspoon: 95 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 pdef, 1 int, 1 ff
*Lavonte David: 139 tackles, 2 sacks, 5 pdef, 1 int, 0 ff
Jo-lonn Dunbar: 115 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 4 pdef, 2 int, 2 ff

Taking a site's word that those guys are all WLBs... but the point is pretty clear regardless. Burfict wasn't even the 2nd best rookie WLB in the league. He made tackles, not plays.

Now before you go on another tangent about how I am just bashing the kid.. I am a big fan of his. I think he'll be a great MLB in 2013 for the Bengals. I hope he gets a lot of impact plays. I'm rooting for him.... but he wasn't an amazing WLB. He was solid. But I do like how you try to compare 1 game vs 15 games to get that 2.4 yards per play less. Hah. Yes, if I take the worst loss of the season, and compare it to the other 15 games, I bet it'll always come out looking rosy regardless who I plug in there. From that train of thought, Pat Sims and Chris Crocker would be the starting of the world's greatest defense, because they weren't playing Week 1 either.

I am not comparing one game to get the 2.4 yards, so please don't try and feign that "point." The article illustrates that the Bengals defense allows 2.4 yards less per play when Burfict is on the field. It did not state "games he starts" nor "games he played in," but simply the snaps he was on the field versus snaps he was not on the field.


If you don't think making that big a difference in the defense makes someone a playmaker, I cannot convince you otherwise, nor do I intend to, as your mind is made up. He did have 2 fumble recoveries, 1 sack, 2 passes defended, 6 stuffs, and made a lot of plays at/near the line of scrimmage. I guess it boils down to what stats you choose to cherry pick? Why not consider stuffs as well, or recovered fumbles?


You don't think he's a playmaker based on the stats you think defines one. Fine. But the fact is he is making plays and being productive and vastly improves the defense, regardless of your misconstruing of the data in my post. You guild the lilly to suit your position as opposed to being objective, a la downplaying all the tackles Vontaze stacked up even though he missed part of the season. You're not open to seeing all the good things Burfict is doing for the team, so I will not try to pry your eyes open.


Enjoy.

[sled21]

I say move him to the middle....move him out of a position he was extremely successful at, and where he says he prefers to play, and move him into a position he would rather not play, and where he has never taken an NFL play in an experiment to see it he can do it. Why, simple.....just to shut the "move Burfict to the middle" whining down...

[JohnHenry]

The primary role of a 4-3 WLB in a scheme that mostly plays under-shifted fronts is to make tackles.
By design the WLB is uncovered and free to make them.
His job isn’t to rush the passer and get sacks… this is especially true in the Bengals case given that they have an All-Pro UT and other competent DLinemen.
As an aside, I will also say that given the recent change in rules that favor the passing game, it’s extremely beneficial if the WLB can cover too.

Anyway, the benchmark for WLBs in an under-shifted front is Derrick Brooks:
(By the way, with his coverage skills he would have been an All-Pro player in today’s game as well)

Derrick Brooks was a WLB with Tampa Bay which also played a 4-3 defense and used under-shifted fronts most of the time.
Tampa Bay had a Hall of Fame UT in Warren Sapp and an All-Pro DE in Simeon Rice.
Derrick Brooks was an 11x Pro-Bowler, 9x All-Pro, 5x first team All Pro, NFL linebacker of the year, Defensive player of the year, and named to the all 2000s team.
Further, he’s certain to be a first ballot Hall of Famer next year – exceptional resume if you ask me.

Derrick Brooks’ career stats are as follows:
14 year
Games played – 224
Games started – 221
Games started per year – 15.78
Solo Tackles – 1,301
Assisted Tackles- 414
Sacks – 13.5
Interceptions – 25
Passed Defended - 60
Forced Fumbles – 24
Fumble Recoveries – 1

By comparison, the following are Howard and Burficts’ numbers:

Thomas Howard
Games played – 93
Games started – 78
Solo Tackles – 393
Assisted Tackles- 102
Sacks – 6.0
Interceptions – 7
Passed Defended - 29
Forced Fumbles – 6
Fumble Recoveries – 3

Vontaze Burfict
Games played – 16
Games started – 14
Solo Tackles – 73
Assisted Tackles- 54
Sacks – 1.0
Interceptions – 0
Passed Defended - 2
Forced Fumbles – 0

A few observations based on the stats:

Notice that Brooks averaged less than 1 sack per year yet averaged more than 120 tackles, which was his main responsibility in the scheme.
More importantly, not only was he a great tackler but what separated him from the rest was his ability to play in space and defend in the passing game, make interceptions, and force fumbles.
Howard is good in terms of tackles, sacks, and passes defended, but really needs to work on turnovers in general, especially forcing fumbles.
Burfict can tackle and has good instincts, but at this point he just isn’t great in pass defense, so he’s probably better served moving to the middle which is his most familiar and probably most natural position.

So, this is the way I see it at Linebacker:

WLB
Thomas Howard (very good 3-down player, most athletic linebacker on the roster except possibly Moch)
Emmanuel Lemur (Marvin sees something in him)

MLB
Vontaze Burfict (seems to have great instincts, is a MLB who did an admirable job playing WLB )
Rey Maualuga (my guess is he won’t be here next year)
Dan Skuta (Mr. Reliable)

SLB
Aaron Maybin (grew up idolizing Peter Boulware which is exactly what ML wants – A Boulware clone)
Manny Lawson (my guess is he won’t be here next year)

The remainder of the roster is just unknown at this point.