Dalton vs Kaepernick (20/20)

[THEBURG]

Originally Posted by BigPapaKain

The back-up beat the back-up Ravens.

While the starters were out there, Dalton made Flacco look like a chump.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by The_B2S

Good lord. Some of you guys are morons. CK7 is clearly better than Dalton in every way possible. Faster. Stronger arm. More accurate. Goes through progressions. Better anticipation. Better pocket awareness. No NFL team right now, including the Bengals, would take Dalton over CK. We picked the wrong QB. Get over it.

CK7 goes through his progressions? If 15 isn't open he generally runs...

[BigPapaKain]

Originally Posted by BengalYankee

I don't hate him at all and I challenge you to find me criticize him. I am the one who said Dalton doesn't need AJ to be a good QB.

Touche'. It's all become a blur of nonsensical babbling in this thread and I just seen the one post and just mouthed off.

Aside from that, my post stands to those who think that Green makes Dalton.

Originally Posted by THEBURG

I'm sorry, what's so funny? That Flacco only completed 50% of his passes for less than 40 yards, or that Dalton completed 66% of passes and a TD?

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

lets not kid ourselves...Bengals got to the playoffs on the defense's back.

Yeah, Dalton's 31 total TDs had nothing to do with our success.

Originally Posted by D.Boon

Do we know that he was 'told' not to? I know that Gresh was the primary, but what would stop Dalton from going through progressions and not throwing it Green's way? It was an awful game plan, though. But you have to admit, Dalton was abysmal in that game. Missed open WR's. Even on the ill advised Marvin Jones throw he was inaccurate (put the ball behind him). He was terrible. I don't see how this can be spun. We all watched it. Honestly, I think it was the worst game of his career. He looked so unsure of himself and just did not seem to be playing with any confidence.

He had a bad game. No good QB has ever had a bad game in the playoffs *cough Flacco cough*. The game plan that involved ignoring AJ and Benji was his fault too I guess.

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I think Dalton is really good in the red zone. I'd rather have CK there but Dalton was strong prior to the final 5 or 6 games.

Considering that Dalton has completed 54.3% in the red zone, with 20 TDs and 0 INTs for his career, I would definitely take him over Kaep there. Kaep has only completed 48.3% in the red zone, with 5 TDs and an INT. Also, Kaep's rating is more than 20 points lower than Dalton's in that department. Funny you can't even admit that Dalton is superior there.

You want to talk about looking foolish? I can't wait to revisit some of these Dalton threads next year after he throws 30+ TDs on his way to another Pro Bowl and a playoff win.

[Atomic Orange]

Chad Johnson made this, i figured it belonged here for all the CK lovers. ENjoy!



http://ocnnreport.com/2013/02/04/bes...super-bowl-47/

[corey513]

Originally Posted by Atomic Orange

Chad Johnson made this, i figured it belonged here for all the CK lovers. ENjoy!



http://ocnnreport.com/2013/02/04/bes...super-bowl-47/

Kaepernicking: Kissing your bicep. Flaccoing: Kissing Lombardi.- Faux John Madden

[McC]

There were CK moments yesterday when I was saying damn you, Gruden, you got us the wrong guy. But the what if game is the lamest game in the world, so I moved on. Our guy will make us proud. CK might make history.

Got a feeling that at JN, CK and AD will be forever joined.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Considering that Dalton has completed 54.3% in the red zone, with 20 TDs and 0 INTs for his career, I would definitely take him over Kaep there. Kaep has only completed 48.3% in the red zone, with 5 TDs and an INT. Also, Kaep's rating is more than 20 points lower than Dalton's in that department. Funny you can't even admit that Dalton is superior there.

You want to talk about looking foolish? I can't wait to revisit some of these Dalton threads next year after he throws 30+ TDs on his way to another Pro Bowl and a playoff win.

I'm not the one trying to polish the turd that is Dalton's accuracy over 20 yards and his playoff appearance v. the Texans. It's funny bc I've asked the question like five times in this thread 'what do you specifically think Dalton does better than CK?' Corey was the only one who answered (disagree with his answer but at least he responded). Most people sidestepped and said 'if you put Dalton on the niners he'd be better than CK' which is just effin' dumb. So I answered my own question. To answer your question, yes, I think Dalton is very good in the redzone. Although statistically better I'd take CK because he's a dual threat and I think he has far superior skills throwing the rock. So I think we'll see those stats shift over time. It does get annoying though that no one can seem to put any blame on Dalton for anything. Texans game...not his fault (it was the OC that made him stink up the joint and look confused!). Last 5 or 6 games of the season (not his fault...Kyle Cook was awful and he couldn't step into throws!). Truth be told I like Dalton too. But I think there are some very valid concerns about his game...and I think it's okay to admit that.

[The Bengal Thing]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I'm not the one trying to polish the turd that is Dalton's accuracy over 20 yards and his playoff appearance v. the Texans. It's funny bc I've asked the question like five times in this thread 'what do you specifically think Dalton does better than CK?' Corey was the only one who answered (disagree with his answer but at least he responded). Most people sidestepped and said 'if you put Dalton on the niners he'd be better than CK' which is just effin' dumb. So I answered my own question. To answer your question, yes, I think Dalton is very good in the redzone. Although statistically better I'd take CK because he's a dual threat and I think he has far superior skills throwing the rock. So I think we'll see those stats shift over time. It does get annoying though that no one can seem to put any blame on Dalton for anything. Texans game...not his fault (it was the OC that made him stink up the joint and look confused!). Last 5 or 6 games of the season (not his fault...Kyle Cook was awful and he couldn't step into throws!). Truth be told I like Dalton too. But I think there are some very valid concerns about his game...and I think it's okay to admit that.

For what it is worth, I agree with you

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Yeah, Dalton's 31 total TDs had nothing to do with our success.

6tds(1rushing), 5ints(1 pick6), and a rating in the mid 70's over the last 5 games; where the team went 4-1.
During that same stretch, the defense only gave up an average of 13.4ppg(high of 20).

If we had a defense outside of the top10, chances were really good we wouldn't have even made the playoffs, let alone had a winning record.

Dalton had 6.5 games this season where he performed well:
week2 vs Cle: 77.4%comp, 3tds, 1int, 128.2rtg
week3 vs Was: 70.4%comp, 3tds, 1int, 132.9rtg
week4 vs Jax: 64.5%comp, 3tds(1rush), 1int, 96.7rtg
week10 vs NYG: 70.0%comp, 4tds, 0ints, 127.6rtg
week11 vs KC: 62.1%comp, 3tds(1rush), 0ints, 109.8rtg
week12 vs Oak: 53.3%comp, 3tds, 0ints, 109.0rtg
week17 vs Balt(half game/pretty meaningless): 66.7%comp, 1td, 0ints, 101.5rtg

The average rank of those defenses: 24th.

He does well against bad teams, but usually bad against good teams. This may be more of an indictment of the offense as a whole, but he's certainly not elevating their play either as far as I can see.

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

6tds(1rushing), 5ints(1 pick6), and a rating in the mid 70's over the last 5 games; where the team went 4-1.
During that same stretch, the defense only gave up an average of 13.4ppg(high of 20).

If we had a defense outside of the top10, chances were really good we wouldn't have even made the playoffs, let alone had a winning record.

Dalton had 6.5 games this season where he performed well:
week2 vs Cle: 77.4%comp, 3tds, 1int, 128.2rtg
week3 vs Was: 70.4%comp, 3tds, 1int, 132.9rtg
week4 vs Jax: 64.5%comp, 3tds(1rush), 1int, 96.7rtg
week10 vs NYG: 70.0%comp, 4tds, 0ints, 127.6rtg
week11 vs KC: 62.1%comp, 3tds(1rush), 0ints, 109.8rtg
week12 vs Oak: 53.3%comp, 3tds, 0ints, 109.0rtg
week17 vs Balt(half game/pretty meaningless): 66.7%comp, 1td, 0ints, 101.5rtg

The average rank of those defenses: 24th.

He does well against bad teams, but usually bad against good teams. This may be more of an indictment of the offense as a whole, but he's certainly not elevating their play either as far as I can see.

To be fair to Dalton, I thought he threw the ball extremely well v. Pitt. He had one terrible throw that resulted in a pick, but for the most part he put the ball in the tight windows that I keep referring to during that game. Unfortunately, his WR's couldn't make the plays. Not going to say Dalton was good down the stretch, but I think he played well v. Pitt in spite of the stats. In the case of his playoff appearance v. the Texans, the stats do not lie. he was abysmal.

[michaelsean]

It's hard to get past the fact that Dalton is not tall and doesn't move all that well. You have to have one or the other, and he has neither. CK has both. Obviously you can't do anything about height, but he can get better at moving, especially inside the pocket. I think if he makes that a priority all the other things can get better.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

.... Truth be told I like Dalton too. But I think there are some very valid concerns about his game...and I think it's okay to admit that.

Exactly. I'm just gonna steal your words and say I second them. I like Andy, he's done plenty good stuff in two years, but some things do need to get better (and hopefully will).

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Exactly. I'm just gonna steal your words and say I second them. I like Andy, he's done plenty good stuff in two years, but some things do need to get better (and hopefully will).

And he will improve over time.

He has had 2 above average years for a QB. They were good years for a rookie and 2nd year guy.

One has to expect continued improvement.

Just think how much worse shape we'd be in if he had like a QB rating in the mid-70's this year. That could have easily happened. We have one of the least talented WR units 2-5 in the NFL. There is potential there, but not production.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

I'm not the one trying to polish the turd that is Dalton's accuracy over 20 yards and his playoff appearance v. the Texans. It's funny bc I've asked the question like five times in this thread 'what do you specifically think Dalton does better than CK?' Corey was the only one who answered (disagree with his answer but at least he responded). Most people sidestepped and said 'if you put Dalton on the niners he'd be better than CK' which is just effin' dumb. So I answered my own question. To answer your question, yes, I think Dalton is very good in the redzone. Although statistically better I'd take CK because he's a dual threat and I think he has far superior skills throwing the rock. So I think we'll see those stats shift over time. It does get annoying though that no one can seem to put any blame on Dalton for anything. Texans game...not his fault (it was the OC that made him stink up the joint and look confused!). Last 5 or 6 games of the season (not his fault...Kyle Cook was awful and he couldn't step into throws!). Truth be told I like Dalton too. But I think there are some very valid concerns about his game...and I think it's okay to admit that.

I answered that question btw. His accuracy over 20 yards isn't as bad as you say imo. We just agree to disagree there. What you see as valid concern, I don't. Dalton is good and getting better. There's more evidence to support that notion than not. I don't get why ppl blame Dalton for good defenses being able to stuff our offense. How do you think the QB is going to look when that happens, not good and it's not necessarily his fault he doesn't look good either. One dimensional one weapon offenses get handled by the better defenses almost regardless of who the QB is.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by D.Boon

1. I'm not the one trying to polish the turd that is Dalton's accuracy over 20 yards and his playoff appearance v. the Texans. It's funny bc I've asked the question like five times in this thread 2. 'what do you specifically think Dalton does better than CK?' Corey was the only one who answered (disagree with his answer but at least he responded). Most people sidestepped and said 3. 'if you put Dalton on the niners he'd be better than CK' which is just effin' dumb. So I answered my own question. To answer your question, yes, I think Dalton is very good in the redzone. Although statistically better I'd take CK because he's a dual threat and I think 4. he has far superior skills throwing the rock. So I think we'll see those stats shift over time. It does get annoying though that no one can seem to put any blame on Dalton for anything. 5. Texans game...not his fault (it was the OC that made him stink up the joint and look confused!). Last 5 or 6 games of the season (not his fault...Kyle Cook was awful and he couldn't step into throws!). Truth be told I like Dalton too. But I think there are some very valid concerns about his game...and I think it's okay to admit that.

1. Do me a favor and look up some QB's completion numbers on passes on 20+ yard throws. Believe it or not, Alex Smith led the league with a 47.1% completion rate on passes over 20 yards this season. That's just throws that traveled 20 yards or more. No catch and run stuff. Dalton was poor this year with a 25% rate, but last year he was in the top 5 with a 42.9% completion rate. So obviously he can make those throws. Now you need to ask yourself why his rate dropped so much this season.

2. I think CK has a better arm and is obviously a better athlete. I disagree on accuracy. If you give Andy the time that CK gets on a regular basis, Andy is extremely accurate (on all throws). I also like his leadership and maturity better. The bicep kissing stuff is lame.

3. Why is it effin dumb? Do you think our team is equal to the 49ers?

4. See #2. CK has a better arm, but when Dalton has time and receivers are open, he distributes the ball extremely well with accuracy.

5. You act as if people are making stuff up. It's proven fact that Jay phased AJ out of the game plan in the 1st half of the Texans game. It's also fact that Gresham dropped what...3 passes in the first half? Is that Dalton's fault? They came out in the 2nd half and Dalton threw for 124 yards. As for Cook/Robinson, the difference was obvious. You didn't see us giving up sacks in bunches after he came back? Did you see Watt stunt to the inside and beat Cook in the playoff game? Also, the difference was obvious when Sanu went down as well. Andy hit Sanu with 4 TDs in 3 games.

---

Contrary to what some think, I don't think Andy is flawless. I think he needs to settle down and deal with pressure a little better. The main reason I stick up for Andy so much is because the level of criticism is ridiculous. He's not a bum, he's not Mark Sanchez, and I think we can win a SB with him. It's lazy to just sit there and blindly blame the QB and ignore that we went through 4 starting WRs and 3 Centers this season. Also, Gruden's playbook left much to be desired. When you look at all the great QBs, they all have multiple WR's, TE's and RB's that catch the football. We have AJ Green and an inconsistent TE. It's not enough, plain and simple.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

1. Do me a favor and look up some QB's completion numbers on passes on 20+ yard throws. Believe it or not, Alex Smith led the league with a 47.1% completion rate on passes over 20 yards this season. That's just throws that traveled 20 yards or more. No catch and run stuff. Dalton was poor this year with a 25% rate, but last year he was in the top 5 with a 42.9% completion rate. So obviously he can make those throws. Now you need to ask yourself why his rate dropped so much this season.

2. I think CK has a better arm and is obviously a better athlete. I disagree on accuracy. If you give Andy the time that CK gets on a regular basis, Andy is extremely accurate (on all throws). I also like his leadership and maturity better. The bicep kissing stuff is lame.

3. Why is it effin dumb? Do you think our team is equal to the 49ers?

4. See #2. CK has a better arm, but when Dalton has time and receivers are open, he distributes the ball extremely well with accuracy.

5. You act as if people are making stuff up. It's proven fact that Jay phased AJ out of the game plan in the 1st half of the Texans game. It's also fact that Gresham dropped what...3 passes in the first half? Is that Dalton's fault? They came out in the 2nd half and Dalton threw for 124 yards. As for Cook/Robinson, the difference was obvious. You didn't see us giving up sacks in bunches after he came back? Did you see Watt stunt to the inside and beat Cook in the playoff game? Also, the difference was obvious when Sanu went down as well. Andy hit Sanu with 4 TDs in 3 games.

---

Contrary to what some think, I don't think Andy is flawless. I think he needs to settle down and deal with pressure a little better. The main reason I stick up for Andy so much is because the level of criticism is ridiculous. He's not a bum, he's not Mark Sanchez, and I think we can win a SB with him. It's lazy to just sit there and blindly blame the QB and ignore that we went through 4 starting WRs and 3 Centers this season. Also, Gruden's playbook left much to be desired. When you look at all the great QBs, they all have multiple WR's, TE's and RB's that catch the football. We have AJ Green and an inconsistent TE. It's not enough, plain and simple.

Excellent post, Shake!

[D.Boon]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

1. Do me a favor and look up some QB's completion numbers on passes on 20+ yard throws. Believe it or not, Alex Smith led the league with a 47.1% completion rate on passes over 20 yards this season. That's just throws that traveled 20 yards or more. No catch and run stuff. Dalton was poor this year with a 25% rate, but last year he was in the top 5 with a 42.9% completion rate. So obviously he can make those throws. Now you need to ask yourself why his rate dropped so much this season.

2. I think CK has a better arm and is obviously a better athlete. I disagree on accuracy. If you give Andy the time that CK gets on a regular basis, Andy is extremely accurate (on all throws). I also like his leadership and maturity better. The bicep kissing stuff is lame.

3. Why is it effin dumb? Do you think our team is equal to the 49ers?

4. See #2. CK has a better arm, but when Dalton has time and receivers are open, he distributes the ball extremely well with accuracy.

5. You act as if people are making stuff up. It's proven fact that Jay phased AJ out of the game plan in the 1st half of the Texans game. It's also fact that Gresham dropped what...3 passes in the first half? Is that Dalton's fault? They came out in the 2nd half and Dalton threw for 124 yards. As for Cook/Robinson, the difference was obvious. You didn't see us giving up sacks in bunches after he came back? Did you see Watt stunt to the inside and beat Cook in the playoff game? Also, the difference was obvious when Sanu went down as well. Andy hit Sanu with 4 TDs in 3 games.

---

Contrary to what some think, I don't think Andy is flawless. I think he needs to settle down and deal with pressure a little better. The main reason I stick up for Andy so much is because the level of criticism is ridiculous. He's not a bum, he's not Mark Sanchez, and I think we can win a SB with him. It's lazy to just sit there and blindly blame the QB and ignore that we went through 4 starting WRs and 3 Centers this season. Also, Gruden's playbook left much to be desired. When you look at all the great QBs, they all have multiple WR's, TE's and RB's that catch the football. We have AJ Green and an inconsistent TE. It's not enough, plain and simple.

Good post. Allow me to retort....

1. In terms of down the field accuracy Dalton was very poor this year. Personally, I think the completion percentages can be misleading due to a multitude of factors (sample size, throws that were actually good but not completed, etc.). As I said earlier, I thought Dalton threw the ball very well v. Pitt but had a poor completion %. However, he put the ball in the tight window where it needed to go (for the most part) and gave his WR's a chance to make a play. I thought he played big that game and was very pleased with the performance in spite of the atrocious stats.

That being said, in terms of thoughtful statistical analysis Pro Football Focus is the best in the biz, wouldn't you agree. They ranked Dalton overall the 25th best QB in the league this year.

2. I agree that bicep kissing is stupid. However, you have to admit that CK makes some big time throws. Has in every game. Consistently hits the tight windows that separate the average from the great. I think in every aspect as a pure passer he is better. Agree to disagree.

3. Of course the niners are better...but the question posed was 'what do you think Dalton does better than CK or where is he superior in his skill set' The most common answer was that Dalton (if able to helm the niners) would've been better than CK who I think we can all admit was just sensational. Dumb argument. Plus, as someone else pointed out, the niners were very low in total offense with the same personell so it's not like they're some offensive juggernaut.

5. I think you're being misleading. You're acting like Dalton was good v. the Texans outside of the Gresham drops. He was awful. Admit it. There was nothing that he did well that game. It was atrocious. I think he's better than that...but on the biggest stage he played his worst football. In terms of Cook and the WR's, I think every QB in the NFL has a weak link on the O-line and woudl like to have more talent at WR. Regardless I don't think Dalton threw the ball well over the final stretch with the exception of Pitt. I think every NFL QB has some adversity that they'll need to deal with. Circumstances will never be ideal...but leaders need to step up when the going gets rough...plus I just hate excuses.

[gardner30]

Thought this was interesting.

Comments from a former Defensive Player of the Year about Kaepernick.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-i-was-wrong/

[Housh]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Thought this was interesting.

Comments from a former Defensive Player of the Year about Kaepernick.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-i-was-wrong/

lol @ all the crybaby Ravens fans posting in there "Well we won the SB why dont we get respect?"

If we win a SB I Wont give a CARE what anybody has to say about us.lolol

My onl response will be "Well who won the superbowl?"

[Housh]

Originally Posted by Housh

lol @ all the crybaby Ravens fans posting in there "Well we won the SB why dont we get respect?"

If we win a SB I Wont give a CARE what anybody has to say about us.lolol

My onl response will be "Well who won the superbowl?"

But the sad thing is I know if we ever won it wed have 100x MORE fans begging for ppl to respect us now so I cant even front

[BengalYankee]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Thought this was interesting.

Comments from a former Defensive Player of the Year about Kaepernick.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-i-was-wrong/

Comments from around America within this article.

helloanybodyhome says:Feb 9, 2013 7:49 AM

Everyone who watched the Super Bowl had to come away impressed with Kaepernick.
—————————

stewart09 says:Feb 9, 2013 9:59 AM

its still astonishing that the bengals picked dalton over Kaepernick

bigbenownsthenfl says:Feb 9, 2013 7:56 AM

Wow.. then suggs must idolize big Ben! Big Ben still perfect in playoffs against luckimore! You still haven’t gone through Pittsburgh in playoffs to get there, but Pittsburgh went through and over you! Cheers!

yinzer7 says:Feb 9, 2013 8:24 AM

Pittsburgh would have to be in the playoffs for Baltimore to go through them. Or in the case of last year, get past Tim Tebow. BTW, how’s Lamar Woodley?

getyourownname says:Feb 9, 2013 8:31 AM

True that the Ravens did not go through Pittsburgh. Or NYJ, either.
It’s not possible to go through a team that isn’t good enough to make the playoffs.
Steeler fans should start focuing on being able to beat Cincy and Cleveland.

jimiinpa says:Feb 9, 2013 8:35 AM

why are steelers fans still popping off? i would be embarrased with an 8-8 record . crawl back to your empty steel mills, and btw 6 rings and a R A P I S T…stay classy

49ersandshivabowl says:Feb 9, 2013 9:59 AM

It IS laughable, though, to read all the Steeler vitriol being thrown at the Ravens. No well-informed Steeler fan would ever talk smack at this juncture of events when the totality of the Steeler defense is a geriatric M******H* unit going all the way back to the loss to the Broncos where the whole nation saw how quickly they had aged. That particular Steel-curtain has become significantly rusted out and weathered. And let’s not talk about the mess the offensive line is in too.
TRUE fans know when to sit down, be quiet, take your lumps as they come and then cheer and jeer when valid circumstances avail themselves. Like it or not THIS is the Ravens time and it will be ALL off-season. No number of Lombardi trophies, whether 6 or 0 will take that away. S u c k it up.