Well, if Hobson is right it's same old Bungles...

[Ben zoo 2]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

You mean same old Bengals that have accounted for playoffs 3 of 4 seasons and back to back playoffs? The same old Bengals that were arguably only an injury to a young receiver of a playoff win. The same old strategy that accounted for a guy like Wallace Gilberry? The same old Bengals that have accounted for one of the youngest and most solid core groups in the league?

Terrible for sure.

Perhaps he meant the same old bengals who had they signed a upper tier free agent might have actually WON a playoff game.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

You call others dumb, yet don't do your won research.

Tampa - 2010 10-6
2011 - 4-12
2012 - 7-9

Bengals 2010 - 4-12
2011 - 9-7
2012 - 10-6

Seriously, please explain why you think Tampa is on the upswing and the bengals are not because I am very confused. Vincent Jackson did improve their offense, but not wins vesus 2010. They are still lagging way behind the Bengals progress.

I would love us to sign one big name free agent, but I don't think it instantly catupults us into the Super Bowl either. Given great drafting ot adding big name free agents, I choose build through the draft first.

How do 2012 FA signings have anything to do with what a team did in 2010? I really feel like you're reaching here. The only thing a 2012 FA can do is improve a team from 2011. How did they have any hand in what happened 2010-2011? That's like saying Dalton was a terrible draft pick in 2011, because:

Bengals 2009: 10-6
2010: 4-12
2011: 9-7

So according to your logic, Andy Dalton and AJ Green were absolutely terrible picks in 2011 because while they improved from 2010, they didn't improve from 2009. That's your logic, not mine. Can you stop being an anti-FA troll, and just admit that you were wrong and that Vincent Jackson was a great signing that improved the Bucs greatly and that not all big name FA signings are the devil like you're trying to claim as fact.

[Luvnit2]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

How do 2012 FA signings have anything to do with what a team did in 2010? I really feel like you're reaching here. The only thing a 2012 FA can do is improve a team from 2011. How did they have any hand in what happened 2010-2011? That's like saying Dalton was a terrible draft pick in 2011, because:

Bengals 2009: 10-6
2010: 4-12
2011: 9-7

So according to your logic, Andy Dalton and AJ Green were absolutely terrible picks in 2011 because while they improved from 2010, they didn't improve from 2009. That's your logic, not mine. Can you stop being an anti-FA troll, and just admit that you were wrong and that Vincent Jackson was a great signing that improved the Bucs greatly and that not all big name FA signings are the devil like you're trying to claim as fact.

We are talking a strategy. Tampa used free agency spending a ton of money on Wright, Jackson and Nicks. We chose to build through the draft and sign lower tier free agents. You stated Tampa made great strides.

Did they really? They went from good to horrible to bad regardless of the numbers a WR threw up in a losing cause and getting tons of junk yardage because they were constantly throwing the ball.

You called someone dumb. Why? It appears you are not bright enough to understand long term strategies versus short term gain. Your Dalton and AJ comparision proves my point. They put up bigger numbers in 2012 than 2011 and the team won one more game than they did in 2011. It is a lot harder to improve when you win 9 games versus 4 games. Sorry, that is common sense. But in tow years, the bengals improved by 6 wins and Tampa actually has digressed with their 7 win season from 2010.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

We are talking a stategy. Tampa used free agency spending a ton of money on Wright, Jackson and Nicks. We chose to build through the draft and sign lower tier free agents. You stated Tampa made great strides.

Did they really? They went from good to horrible to bad regardless of the numbers a WR threw up in a losing cause and getting tons of junk yardage because they were constantly throwing the ball.

You called someone dumb. Why? It appears you are not bright enough to understand long term strategies versus short term gain. Your Dalton and AJ comparision proves my point. They put up bigger numbers in 2012 than 2011 and the team won one more game than they did in 2011. It is a lot harder to improve when you win 9 games versus 4 games. Sorry, that is common sense. But in tow years, the bengals improved by 6 wins and Tampa actually has digressed with their 7 win season from 2010.

Once again, how does 2010 have anything to do with FAs they signed in 2012? You've still yet to make that part make ANY sense.

Since they signed those big money FAs, they improved 3 games (43% win improvement). Since they signed those big money FAs, the Bengals improved 1 game (10% win improvement). It is harder to improve from 9 than 4, but that's not what I was arguing. I am arguing that since they signed those FAs, they vastly improved as a team. Their offense became potent. Much more so than the Bengals who are just improving their offense through the draft.

I am well aware of short term vs long term, but the fact of the matter is, when you might only have a player for 4-5 years, how long term can you afford to be? As it is, the average career length of a first round pick in the NFL is 9.3 years. The average career length for a Pro Bowl player is 11.7 seasons.. that means the long term plan has already used 17% of AJ Green's expected career. If you don't go all out for winning in 2013, that brings it up to 25.5% of his career. So if you don't go for winning it all in 2013, over a fourth of his expected career length is already been squandered on "next year".

Of course that's assuming AJ Green even gets retained for the Bengals, or doesn't suffer some injury.

Besides, isn't 22 years long enough to wait to actually go for a playoff win? Do we as fans really have to wait for 23? More? At some point, tomorrow becomes today, and then before you know it, it becomes yesterday. Windows for winning aren't that big in the NFL. You have to take them while you are able to.

[djam]

Just pretend that MJ, Andre, Howard, etc, etc are all coming from other teams and it will look like we have a huge splash in FA, provided we sign them of course. I looked at the avail FA's at our positions of most need and didnt raise an eyebrow much. Overall, sticking with the formula that works --building through the draft and serviceable team players in FA seems like its working very well. I'd love to see them keep doing what they've been doing the last few years. It's been working great.

Remember when we signed Gilberry? Ppl didnt seem very excited at all. I am beginning to trust our coaches after seeing their results.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by Ben zoo 2

Perhaps he meant the same old bengals who had they signed a upper tier free agent might have actually WON a playoff game.

Pure speculation.

[Ben zoo 2]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

Pure speculation.

Perhaps. Except for that not winning a playoff game thing. Maybe you could speculate on why we don't win playoff games or what we can do (differently?) to win one?

[nevergonnachange]

Originally Posted by djam

Just pretend that MJ, Andre, Howard, etc, etc are all coming from other teams and it will look like we have a huge splash in FA, provided we sign them of course. I looked at the avail FA's at our positions of most need and didnt raise an eyebrow much. Overall, sticking with the formula that works --building through the draft and serviceable team players in FA seems like its working very well. I'd love to see them keep doing what they've been doing the last few years. It's been working great.

Remember when we signed Gilberry? Ppl didnt seem very excited at all. I am beginning to trust our coaches after seeing their results.

If they were coming from another team it would be a huge splash; they would be adding on to a playoff team and the team would hopefully be better. Re-signing them makes the team more or less the same team that grabbed the #6 playoff seed and got bounced in the first round.

[Luvnit2]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

Once again, how does 2010 have anything to do with FAs they signed in 2012? You've still yet to make that part make ANY sense.

Since they signed those big money FAs, they improved 3 games (43% win improvement). Since they signed those big money FAs, the Bengals improved 1 game (10% win improvement). It is harder to improve from 9 than 4, but that's not what I was arguing. I am arguing that since they signed those FAs, they vastly improved as a team. Their offense became potent. Much more so than the Bengals who are just improving their offense through the draft.

I am well aware of short term vs long term, but the fact of the matter is, when you might only have a player for 4-5 years, how long term can you afford to be? As it is, the average career length of a first round pick in the NFL is 9.3 years. The average career length for a Pro Bowl player is 11.7 seasons.. that means the long term plan has already used 17% of AJ Green's expected career. If you don't go all out for winning in 2013, that brings it up to 25.5% of his career. So if you don't go for winning it all in 2013, over a fourth of his expected career length is already been squandered on "next year".

Of course that's assuming AJ Green even gets retained for the Bengals, or doesn't suffer some injury.

Besides, isn't 22 years long enough to wait to actually go for a playoff win? Do we as fans really have to wait for 23? More? At some point, tomorrow becomes today, and then before you know it, it becomes yesterday. Windows for winning aren't that big in the NFL. You have to take them while you are able to.

We can all argue all day long and that is fine with me. I do have problems when you call someone dumb. It is uncalled for and has no place in this forum. You want to call names and talk smack, go to the smack forum. Why 2010? Simple, you need a baseline. They did not blow up the roster. The still have same QB, but he is more experienced.

As far as 2011 to 2012 improvement, you gave Vincent Jackson signing all the credit for their offensive improvement, yet did not mention the contribution of the best rookie running back in 2013. You also failed to mention the almost 10 million they spent on Nicks and got no production. I could argue if they were going to spend over 20 million to revamp the offense, it was dumb based on how poorly the defense played.

You say what they did spending a crap load of money in free agency was the answer for a team one year removed from a 10-6 year and then state going from 10 wins to 4 wins to 7 wins spending all of that money worked out great. I disagree. In the end, the owner could have made 20 million more dollars last year and missed the playoffs. I would ticked off if I owned the Bucs by last year's performance after I spent all of that money.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

Do the numbers back of your theory of the AFC was extremely weak in 2012 I did not look up numbers, but I assumer their was a large disparity in games won by the NFC versus the AFC.

Please let us all know. If the numbers prove it, then I will accept your comments.

NFC beat AFC 33-31 in 2011.

That may seem like a close matchup, but the AFC usually dominates, and hasn't lost an inter-conference battle since 1995. So 2-3 games probably was the difference between the Bengals getting in or not.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

Keys to success to build a great franchise in order of importance (my opinion):

1. Great and consistent drafts
2. Resign your own very good players.
3. Get 2 or 3 free agents from other teams each year. Always buyer beware though because there is a reason these guys are free agents. Are they about the team first? Do they want a big payday, but lack the passion to outplay a big free agent contract. I look at guys like Haynesworth who were awesome all the way until they got paid and then they destroyed the team cap and chemistry.

I like how we are addressing building a dominant team. Would I look at us to find a couple of upgrades with the right free agents at the right positions? Of course I would, but in the end, I want to keep our own (starters and key backups) and add a very good draft on top of the past 3 good drafts.

I'm not convinced when people use examples like Haynesworth to discredit free agency. Haynesworth was a fairly well-known head-case in Tennessee and widely regarded as a talented, but lazy, "me-first" player who was going to underperform once he got a big deal. The Redskins willingness to throw tens of millions of dollars in his direction is no evidence of free agency itself being inherently flawed ... not all FAs fit this profile. Plenty guys are FA because they are great players who deserve a big deal and their current teams don't have the cap space to give it to them.

When you have a clear need that must be addressed on a roster, a proven veteran FA who has done it in some other city is simply more likely to succeed in that position than an unproven, unknown youngster. Yes, we can all come up with specific examples of young, unproven players emerging out of nowhere to be stars, and we can all come up with examples of productive vets being busts after going somewhere else in FA. But, if you're just playing the odds, a guy who has already produced 1,000 yards or double digit sacks etc. in the league is more likely to do it in the future than some young kid who never has.

We should have learned our lesson last season. We had clear needs at WR and S, but chose to let the young, unproven players on the roster fill those needs. Safety was such a disaster that it took us just 3 weeks to go running back to Crocker, who luckily was still available to come back and settle the D. Unfortunately, there was nowhere for us to turn after #2 WR proved the teams most consistent weakness the entire season. We had these exact same conversations last year when some of us, me included, wanted us to go after Reggie Wayne as #2 WR and had to hear the same comments about not spending money on free agents. We had the ability to offer a font-loaded contract that would not have hurt us much after 2012, and not only would Wayne have addressed our number 1 weakness last season, his absence in Indy would have significantly hurt the team that was ahead of us in the wildcard race most of the season.

[t3r3e3]

Originally Posted by Au165

You have to learn to walk before you run. We have to learn to win enough to consistently get into the post season before we win in it. It will come but some fans act like the window is closing or something. You just went through 20 years of futility and now act like it is Super Bowl or Bust.

It only took 20+ years to learn how to walk. The biggest thing holding the Bengals back with respect to beating good teams is the offense's ineffectiveness, and Dalton's erratic play against good teams and in the Playoffs. I sincerely hope the Bengals FO drafts a solid backup QB in this draft, with an eye towards developing that QB for the future. My dark-horse in that respect is Matt Scott. Dalton is an average NFL QB, that will only go as far as the supporting cast around him. He's not a throw the team on your back type.

[bengals67]

people down on dalton need to go back and watch tape of Boomer and Anderson in their second year.

Or Terry Bradshaw and about 30 others I could name.

Lets be a little patient and see what happens this year - especially with more exprience from his WRs and hopefully some new weapons.

Having to play the Steelers and Ravens twice a year is going to pay off for Andy.

[JIM TROY]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

Gee how original. How many nights did you lay awake conjuring this gem?

same typical ******** comment from one of the worst members on this board. I wonder why they let you stay.

[JIM TROY]

Originally Posted by Ben zoo 2

Perhaps. Except for that not winning a playoff game thing. Maybe you could speculate on why we don't win playoff games or what we can do (differently?) to win one?

in many posts people on this board have told you, but because you are lame and deaf, you do not hear!

[JIM TROY]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

Pure speculation.

speaking of staying awake all night on a response!!!

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by JIM TROY

same typical ******** comment from one of the worst members on this board. I wonder why they let you stay.

So your smart comments are completely okay you just do not like the favor returned. Have I pretty much got it correct?

In answer to your question. ....don't know why don't you ask an administrator?

[bengalfan4life27c]

Ravens Anquan Bolden 49ers Mario Manningham Patriots Brandon Lloyd. 3 of the 4 conference championship teams acquired a number 2 receiver in free agency. we want to keep our own is just another way of saying im too cheap on signing bonuses and guaranteed money too improve the team.

[Jasonew6]

Originally Posted by Joelist

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-...b-ffc98164c7b1

Basically the usual claptrap about not being players in Free Agency (despite having the most cap room by far in the league). He also doesn't even get the need positions correct.

If this is true we can forget about improvements on the team - it sounds like the front office is still going to do their reactive, WAY too cautious approach to the offseason.

If they have the off season I think they will, they will sign two of the top free agents available this year at key positions of DE and OT, and still have enough money to extend Geno, AJ and Andy when the time comes. Sounds pretty good to me.

[nevergonnachange]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

If they have the off season I think they will, they will sign two of the top free agents available this year at key positions of DE and OT, and still have enough money to extend Geno, AJ and Andy when the time comes. Sounds pretty good to me.

Does the team get better or just tread water?

[TheCincinnatiKid]

Originally Posted by nevergonnachange

If they were coming from another team it would be a huge splash; they would be adding on to a playoff team and the team would hopefully be better. Re-signing them makes the team more or less the same team that grabbed the #6 playoff seed and got bounced in the first round.

While I do agree, that team also probably should've taken the division, the 4th seed, and had we shown up in said playoff game, we'd probably have won it. Do think we're at best a divisional round team with our current roster though.

I think keeping the team together is hugely important. But we do need to add a playmaker or two on the offensive side.

[Cure4CF]

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

We won 10 games one year in a row. How on earth are we winning 10 games "consistently"?

We don't make the playoffs consistently. People use a small window and act like we're the model for reaching the playoffs. We're not. Hell, we shouldn't have made the playoffs last year. And had Baltimore played their starters this year in the final game, there would have been no improvement record wise.

If "Frank" has been late to work 19 times in the last 23 days, but he made it on time the last two days in row, and 3 of the last 4, would you say he consistently shows up on time?

If Hyundai has made a number of lemons dating back two decades, but in the last two years they've produced above average cars, and in 3 of the last 4 as well, would they be consider a "consistent" producer of fine automobiles? Keep in mind, just two years ago they produced one of the worst cars to hit the market.

I think the word more appropriate would "trend". And I hope it continues. But this is not yet a theme for this franchise. They are not consistent at anything other not winning playoff games, and not spending anywhere near their peers.

I think I work with this Frank guy you speak of and I am positive he will continue to be late the majority of the time.

I just don't understand why anyone would have a problem with signing a top tier free agent that would improve an area of weekness. If they make the team better I think everyone on here would be in favor of it. Yes sign our own first, but we have a ton of money to do both. I am not sure if anyone out there this year is worth it (besides our own), but @ least don't say hell no we never should sign a top tier free agent because it cost 2 much. Same with saying we have to sign a big name to get better. Last year was mad we didn't because there were a few that would of really helped. This year I won't be upset if we don't, just because I don't see a major long term upgrade worth it. (Maybe Wallace or Bowe). Any way WHO DEY to you all!

[Stewy]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

You mean like the Texans, a franchise founded in 2002? Who, before 2011, had a 53-89 overall record with no division titles, no playoff wins, no playoff appearances, and only one winning season?

They seemed to turn that ship around real quick, going 22-10 with 2 straight division titles and 2 playoff wins(against the Bengals) since 2011.

Bengals: 1991-2012: 2 division titles, 0 playoff wins
Texans: 2002-2012: 2 division titles, 2 playoff wins

My point is, I don't buy that "walk before you run" mantra.

And the Texans are now in dire CAP straights where they are now over the cap, they have already restructured most of their high priced deals and can't restructure much any more, they had to let multiple high talent individuals walk in FA last year or traded them away to stay under the CAP and this year they have to cut their highly talented DE on the other side of JJ Watt (wanna bet this changes Watt's effectiveness???) or they'll have no money for the draft, let alone signing new or their own FA's. They are in a cap disaster situation.

Don't get me started on the Jets.....

Before you and those like you point to teams like the Texans as a success case of going big in FA, you might want to look a little deeper so you don't look like a fool as a result.

[degolfisfun]

I just read Hobson's diatribe on our WRs and frankly I'm disappointed. Possibly I don't understand his description but I would have thought part of his role would be to be objective and candid; I don't expect him to throw players/coaches under the bus but....

This latest on Sanu and Jones possibly being our starting WRs in 2013 was just too much. How long ago was he taking up for Dalton and the offense not having secondary (other than Green and Gresham) Go To guys and that he had young players who were still learning and developing. C'mon Geoff you can't have it both ways. You can't give Dalton and the Bengals offense a pass one week because of youth, inexperience, and talent at the WR position, and then say the next week what great young players our young receivers are and they are probably going to be our starters in 2013. That's too much. We need starting help at WR and every analyst/expert this side of the Pacific knows it.

Let me make a suggestion. Why don't you Geoff write an article on where you see the Bengals needing help to improve in 2013? You've got great insight here. Go a little further and suggest whether you think this help is going to come via FA or the Draft. No need for names. Or is this asking for too much when every other sportwriter in the world is speculating/predicting this? You wouldn't be tipping the brass hand.

Everybody else says we need help/talent at Safety, LB, RB, and WR. Some of this potential help - guys cut and released - is already out there. Wouldn't Bart Scott or Calvin Pace be a good fit here for 2-3 years? Have we contacted their agents? Neither is in their prime but both still have talent. These seem like good Hobson reads to me.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Stewy

And the Texans are now in dire CAP straights where they are now over the cap, they have already restructured most of their high priced deals and can't restructure much any more, they had to let multiple high talent individuals walk in FA last year or traded them away to stay under the CAP and this year they have to cut their highly talented DE on the other side of JJ Watt (wanna bet this changes Watt's effectiveness???) or they'll have no money for the draft, let alone signing new or their own FA's. They are in a cap disaster situation.

Don't get me started on the Jets.....

Before you and those like you point to teams like the Texans as a success case of going big in FA, you might want to look a little deeper so you don't look like a fool as a result.

So saving money means more than winning? Got it.

That wasn't my point anyway. The texans have won twice as many playoff games in 11 seasons as the Bengals in 22. Therefore, "run before you walk" in this case isn't correct.

Cap space and all that is pretty much irrelivant for this particular discussion.