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  #126  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
I agree with several of your assessments...

I prefer Bowe over Wallace, but either would be a better choice than Hartline...you, I, and a minority of others here look at Hartline RATIONALLY and without our Buckeye colored sunglasses...

I also wouldn't mind an early pick on Patterson or Hopkins...however, the Bengals should front-end any deal with Bowe or Wallace in order to dump either's contract when it's time to re-sign AJ and/or Patterson/Hopkins

Sanu's going to be fine in the slot...potential 70-80 reception player...Jones, I'm not sold on yet, but willing to give him another year or 2.

As far as who'd I'd let walk...let it be MJ...Andre's developed into a fine RT and Geno...well there's no way we should let, arguably the best DT in the NFL, walk!...replacing MJ with any of the first 3 picks is realistic in this year's draft...I like MJ and although this was his best season thus far...he was virtually invisible in too many games this year. He's not worth the money he'll be seeking off this year's performance.
Really Jones didnt sell you? Im not trying to start an argument...but Jones definitely showed me some solid attributes. I wouldnt mind him being one of our top 3 WRs
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  #127  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:16 PM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Really Jones didnt sell you? Im not trying to start an argument...but Jones definitely showed me some solid attributes. I wouldnt mind him being one of our top 3 WRs
I hear ya...I can't ignore what I observed of Jones...there's no question on his speed, but he needs to bulk up 5 or so lbs, to fight off defenders...he gets eaten up too often at his current size, but it does look like he can address that problem.

Jone's isn't yet a better 2 than Sanu is already a slot! but I am (as I mentioned previously), willing to give him time to develop, however, it's obvious that another receiving threat is needed NOW, and a Bowe or Wallace provides and fulfills that need quicker than Jones will at this point.
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  #128  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:46 PM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Lawson View Post
Man You People are freaking insane, we are 56 million under the cap that means we Can offer Wallace a five year 37 million dollar contract and havnde plenty of cap For three seasons and that's afte.r signing mj,andre, Newman geathers and pacman .You figure we would still be at least 20 million under plenty of room for Dalton Green Gresham and atkins
What is insane? I asked you a question which you do not even come close to answering. If you give Wallace a 5 year 37 mil contract then what is your price tag on Green who is far and away a better and more complete receiver than Wallace.

Personally, I do not see Wallace in near the same category of a Fitzgerald, A.Johnson, C.Johnson, Julio, or AJ so the fair question is where do you see the price tag for a guy like AJ?

Just because you have money does not mean you spend it ignorantly. As well, money is not the only factor involved in a decision.
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  #129  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:49 PM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
I hear ya...I can't ignore what I observed of Jones...there's no question on his speed, but he needs to bulk up 5 or so lbs, to fight off defenders...he gets eaten up too often at his current size, but it does look like he can address that problem.

Jone's isn't yet a better 2 than Sanu is already a slot! but I am (as I mentioned previously), willing to give him time to develop, however, it's obvious that another receiving threat is needed NOW, and a Bowe or Wallace provides and fulfills that need quicker than Jones will at this point.
Sanu for at least a season or two will be the#2 in the mold of a TJ. He will line up opposite AJ on traditional two receiver sets and will slide inside on multiple receiver sets.
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  #130  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

Dalton would have another target to miss completely
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  #131  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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So if you pay Wallace this silly some of money he is looking for, which is money around what some of the elite at the position are making, then what number are you proposing to pay Green when it is time to extend him?

I mean you are going to pay a guy that THINKS he is one of the best upward of what guys that have proven they are the best. So what then do you pay AJ who IS one of the best?
Regardless of whatever happens here, I think Wallace is set for disappointment. He values himself more than I bet most of the nfl does.
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  #132  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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55 mil in cap space says that is a flat out lie.....franchise tag says that is a flat out lie....the ability to let MJ, Andre walk makes that a flat out lie
This shows you have no concept of the salary cap.

I documented the contracts of the Bengals 2 main FAs, MJ and Andre, plus the extension of Geno, which needs to happen this year, in this post below:

http://boards.bengals.com/showthread...=109078&page=4

Post #84

This will eat up about 29 million of the Bengals cap space (you could structure a bit differently but will still eat up a large number of that space).

You have to figure about 5-6 mil for the rookies, so that's 35 million.

If you sign Wallace that is about 12 mil more, a year, to your cap number, so now your at 47 mil.

That leaves you 8 mil to fill out the rest of your roster and in season signings for injuries.

Not only that but it leaves you no money to carry over for the extensions of your QB, your star WR and a pretty good TE.

So, as you can see, unless the cap spikes up 20 mil or more over the next 2 years the Bengals will not have enough cap space to get this all done.

If they bring in a vet WR, ideally it will have to be someone in the 5-6 mil range.

Now you could structure the contracts to give you cap flexibility in some years of the deal, however, most Free Agents in the Wallace caliber will want a big signing bonus, which has to be spread evenly across the length of the deal, cap number wise.

For Example, if you give Wallace a 10 mil signing bonus on a 5 year deal then 2 mil will count against the cap every year of the deal, that is the rule.

Most "Big Name" free agents aren't going to sign a cap friendly deal in the 1st few years because they want money now, like a big signing/roster bonus.

While 55 mil seems like a lot, it really isn't when you have guys that will demand large contracts.

So again, who do you want to let go in order to get Wallace?
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  #133  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Regardless of whatever happens here, I think Wallace is set for disappointment. He values himself more than I bet most of the nfl does.
I agree.

He drops a lot of passes and isn't really a versatile WR.

He does stretch a defense, really well, and will get paid handsomely for it.
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  #134  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Lawson View Post
Man You People are freaking insane, we are 56 million under the cap that means we Can offer Wallace a five year 37 million dollar contract and havnde plenty of cap For three seasons and that's afte.r signing mj,andre, Newman geathers and pacman .You figure we would still be at least 20 million under plenty of room for Dalton Green Gresham and atkins
If they can get Wallace for 5 yrs 37 mil then by all means get him.

I would be shocked if he takes less than 50 mil.

DeSean Jackson just signed a 5 yr 47 mil extension last year and they have similar skill sets.

Last edited by gardner30; 02-09-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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  #135  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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This shows you have no concept of the salary cap.

I documented the contracts of the Bengals 2 main FAs, MJ and Andre, plus the extension of Geno, which needs to happen this year, in this post below:

http://boards.bengals.com/showthread...=109078&page=4

Post #84

This will eat up about 29 million of the Bengals cap space (you could structure a bit differently but will still eat up a large number of that space).

You have to figure about 5-6 mil for the rookies, so that's 35 million.

If you sign Wallace that is about 12 mil more, a year, to your cap number, so now your at 47 mil.

That leaves you 8 mil to fill out the rest of your roster and in season signings for injuries.

Not only that but it leaves you no money to carry over for the extensions of your QB, your star WR and a pretty good TE.

So, as you can see, unless the cap spikes up 20 mil or more over the next 2 years the Bengals will not have enough cap space to get this all done.

If they bring in a vet WR, ideally it will have to be someone in the 5-6 mil range.

Now you could structure the contracts to give you cap flexibility in some years of the deal, however, most Free Agents in the Wallace caliber will want a big signing bonus, which has to be spread evenly across the length of the deal, cap number wise.

For Example, if you give Wallace a 10 mil signing bonus on a 5 year deal then 2 mil will count against the cap every year of the deal, that is the rule.

Most "Big Name" free agents aren't going to sign a cap friendly deal in the 1st few years because they want money now, like a big signing/roster bonus.

While 55 mil seems like a lot, it really isn't when you have guys that will demand large contracts.

So again, who do you want to let go in order to get Wallace?
There are also quite a few of the guys on this year's roster with expired contracts. How much does it cost to keep the ones you want to re-sign?

Of those guys under contract, how much can you free up there? Probably not all that much.

Almost sounds like just keeping the guys worth keeping and maybe filling one hole would be about as much as you could hope to do.
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  #136  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by gardner30 View Post
This shows you have no concept of the salary cap.

I documented the contracts of the Bengals 2 main FAs, MJ and Andre, plus the extension of Geno, which needs to happen this year, in this post below:

http://boards.bengals.com/showthread...=109078&page=4

Post #84

This will eat up about 29 million of the Bengals cap space (you could structure a bit differently but will still eat up a large number of that space).

You have to figure about 5-6 mil for the rookies, so that's 35 million.

If you sign Wallace that is about 12 mil more, a year, to your cap number, so now your at 47 mil.

That leaves you 8 mil to fill out the rest of your roster and in season signings for injuries.

Not only that but it leaves you no money to carry over for the extensions of your QB, your star WR and a pretty good TE.

So, as you can see, unless the cap spikes up 20 mil or more over the next 2 years the Bengals will not have enough cap space to get this all done.

If they bring in a vet WR, ideally it will have to be someone in the 5-6 mil range.

Now you could structure the contracts to give you cap flexibility in some years of the deal, however, most Free Agents in the Wallace caliber will want a big signing bonus, which has to be spread evenly across the length of the deal, cap number wise.

For Example, if you give Wallace a 10 mil signing bonus on a 5 year deal then 2 mil will count against the cap every year of the deal, that is the rule.

Most "Big Name" free agents aren't going to sign a cap friendly deal in the 1st few years because they want money now, like a big signing/roster bonus.

While 55 mil seems like a lot, it really isn't when you have guys that will demand large contracts.

So again, who do you want to let go in order to get Wallace?
Disregard all that what if crap you put in this post and go back to your previous comment I bolded.......That was a total lie.....my comment still stands true
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  #137  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Disregard all that what if crap you put in this post and go back to your previous comment I bolded.......That was a total lie.....my comment still stands true
If you would care to explain I'm all ears.

Are you saying that the Bengals could afford all these guys, Wallace, Geno, MJ, Smith and still have the cap to give Green and Dalton what they will be asking for in the next year or 2?

I would love to hear how.

Last edited by gardner30; 02-09-2013 at 10:20 PM.
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  #138  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

Victor Cruz would be the pickup of all pickups. Good chance he resigns with the Giants, but if he doesnt he would be the best WR free agent and would take him over Wallace everyday. I don't think its smart for us to spend big $ on a free agent WR, but if we do I'd prefer Cruz..........now he would take pressure off Green!!!!!
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  #139  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
I agree with several of your assessments...

I prefer Bowe over Wallace, but either would be a better choice than Hartline...you, I, and a minority of others here look at Hartline RATIONALLY and without our Buckeye colored sunglasses...

I also wouldn't mind an early pick on Patterson or Hopkins...however, the Bengals should front-end any deal with Bowe or Wallace in order to dump either's contract when it's time to re-sign AJ and/or Patterson/Hopkins

Sanu's going to be fine in the slot...potential 70-80 reception player...Jones, I'm not sold on yet, but willing to give him another year or 2.

As far as who'd I'd let walk...let it be MJ...Andre's developed into a fine RT and Geno...well there's no way we should let, arguably the best DT in the NFL, walk!...replacing MJ with any of the first 3 picks is realistic in this year's draft...I like MJ and although this was his best season thus far...he was virtually invisible in too many games this year. He's not worth the money he'll be seeking off this year's performance.
I'll probably catch some flack for this, but I agree here. I like Sanu @ the slot ALOT.....him + Hawk should excel @ slot for us for years to come.............................................. . If given the hard choice of only getting to have 1 of M.Wallace or M. Johnson, I'd have to go w/ MW........+ would think that MJ would be far easier to replace w/ 1 of our high draft picks (Alex Okafor perhaps) than MW would be (w/ someone like Hopkins for example). Plus I feel we have a better in house option in Wallace Gilberry to step in for MJ at DE than we have anybody on the roster right now that is a true WR2 (just like you, not sold on 5th rd pick Jones at the position)

Last edited by Sham69Rock; 02-09-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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  #140  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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I agree with several of your assessments...

I prefer Bowe over Wallace, but either would be a better choice than Hartline...you, I, and a minority of others here look at Hartline RATIONALLY and without our Buckeye colored sunglasses...

I also wouldn't mind an early pick on Patterson or Hopkins...however, the Bengals should front-end any deal with Bowe or Wallace in order to dump either's contract when it's time to re-sign AJ and/or Patterson/Hopkins

Sanu's going to be fine in the slot...potential 70-80 reception player...Jones, I'm not sold on yet, but willing to give him another year or 2.

As far as who'd I'd let walk...let it be MJ...Andre's developed into a fine RT and Geno...well there's no way we should let, arguably the best DT in the NFL, walk!...replacing MJ with any of the first 3 picks is realistic in this year's draft...I like MJ and although this was his best season thus far...he was virtually invisible in too many games this year. He's not worth the money he'll be seeking off this year's performance.
So you would rather let a 25 year old pass rusher go over the RT even though Tackle is perhaps the deepest position in the draft and Free Agency this year?

Odd.
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  #141  
Old 02-10-2013, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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So you would rather let a 25 year old pass rusher go over the RT even though Tackle is perhaps the deepest position in the draft and Free Agency this year?

Odd.
The top tier guys (Welker, Wallace and Bowe) will all get at least 10 million per year for 4 or 5 years. I don't see us taking that type of leap and think it while it may look great on paper, the more I think about it, it is a bad idea.

If we are going to break the bank in free agency, do it with a couple of guys like Hartline or Amendola with a Bush or Finley or Byrd.
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  #142  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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Dalton would have another target to miss completely
He actually would help with Daltonís deep ball problems, because itís pretty much impossible to overthrow him, which extends his radius. All Dalton has to do is keep it in bounds and get it past the defender and itís going to be a touchdown. If he underthrows, Wallace can slow up without the corner catching up completely. If he hits him in stride, heíll never be caught.

Plus, Wallace caught touchdowns this season on fades (Chiefs), crossing patterns (Giants), slants (Denver), go routes (Titans), posts (Chargers), and broken plays (Jets). His strength is speed, but the one-trick pony arguments donít really apply anymore.
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  #143  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:45 AM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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I'll probably catch some flack for this, but I agree here. I like Sanu @ the slot ALOT.....him + Hawk should excel @ slot for us for years to come.............................................. . If given the hard choice of only getting to have 1 of M.Wallace or M. Johnson, I'd have to go w/ MW........+ would think that MJ would be far easier to replace w/ 1 of our high draft picks (Alex Okafor perhaps) than MW would be (w/ someone like Hopkins for example). Plus I feel we have a better in house option in Wallace Gilberry to step in for MJ at DE than we have anybody on the roster right now that is a true WR2 (just like you, not sold on 5th rd pick Jones at the position)
Trying to replace Michael Johnson with Wallace Gilberry is like trying to replace chocolate with poop. At first glance, you might be able to make it look deceiving, but lets be honest.. it's not a proper substitute. Johnson can play every down, defending against the run as well as rushing the pass.. and has 65 more tackles, 2.5 more sacks, 12 more pdef, and 2 more int in 2 less years than Gilberry does... Gilberry has started 3 games in his 6 year career and is 28 compared to MJ's 26.

That is a horrible horrible HORRIBLE idea. I can't even adequately express how horrible of an idea that is with words.
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  #144  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Trying to replace Michael Johnson with Wallace Gilberry is like trying to replace chocolate with poop. At first glance, you might be able to make it look deceiving, but lets be honest.. it's not a proper substitute. Johnson can play every down, defending against the run as well as rushing the pass.. and has 65 more tackles, 2.5 more sacks, 12 more pdef, and 2 more int in 2 less years than Gilberry does... Gilberry has started 3 games in his 6 year career and is 28 compared to MJ's 26.

That is a horrible horrible HORRIBLE idea. I can't even adequately express how horrible of an idea that is with words.
Not really true TLL. Gilberry has only played one more season than MJ, and barely played as a rookie at all.

Gilberry has appeared in 67 games to MJ's 64, and MJ has gotten a ton more snaps.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Gilberry is an excellent player, and I don't think the drop off would be as clear as you think.

Half of MJ's sacks came against backups and in that last Baltimore (basically preseason) game.

I think MJ isn't as great as people think, and Gilberry is better than people think.
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  #145  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:05 AM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Not really true TLL. Gilberry has only played one more season than MJ, and barely played as a rookie at all.

Gilberry has appeared in 67 games to MJ's 64, and MJ has gotten a ton more snaps.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Gilberry is an excellent player, and I don't think the drop off would be as clear as you think.

Half of MJ's sacks came against backups and in that last Baltimore (basically preseason) game.

I think MJ isn't as great as people think, and Gilberry is better than people think.
Yeah, looking back the 6 seasons was my mistake.. NFL.com had 6 seasons listed, but I didn't pay attention because he's 2 years older, and 2 of them are from 2012 from 2 different teams. So yes, only one more season.

Still, the games appeared and snap difference, that's because MJ is simply a better player. Better players will appear in games more often, and will get more snaps. I just refuse to believe that Gilberry will excel as a starter. He filled the exact same role that Jonathan Fanene did.

Fanene 2011: 24 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 pdef, 0 int, 0 ff
Gilberry 2012: 24 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 0 pdef, 0 int, 1 ff

Seriously.. the exact same number of tackles and sacks. It's because they're system players. It's guys like Atkins, MJ, and Dunlap who allow people like Fanene and Gilberry to come in on a rotation.

I'll grant you that Gilberry has had a bit more success in the past, but nowhere near starting material. In return, you have to admit that seeing those stats next to each other gives you pause and makes you think maybe just possibly he is indeed getting that production from the system.
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  #146  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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If you would care to explain I'm all ears.

Are you saying that the Bengals could afford all these guys, Wallace, Geno, MJ, Smith and still have the cap to give Green and Dalton what they will be asking for in the next year or 2?

I would love to hear how.
Your adding stuff now bro....go back to the comment you bolded, and my response......My response is valid to only the comment I have bolded from your post. The statement of "The only way to get Wallace is to let AJ walk" is a lie. Im not referring any other stuff in that post. Simply put, there are many ways to get Mike, and keep AJ
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  #147  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:07 AM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Not really true TLL. Gilberry has only played one more season than MJ, and barely played as a rookie at all.

Gilberry has appeared in 67 games to MJ's 64, and MJ has gotten a ton more snaps.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Gilberry is an excellent player, and I don't think the drop off would be as clear as you think.

Half of MJ's sacks came against backups and in that last Baltimore (basically preseason) game.

I think MJ isn't as great as people think, and Gilberry is better than people think.
I can respect your opinion but absolutely do not agree with it. Let me start by saying that for a rotational player I have as much of a mancrush on Gilberry as you can possibly have. However, I do not feel he is in the caliber of MJ.

I feel MJ has not scratched the surface of how good he can be. I think he is still discovering what he can do with that physically freakish body. He has shown progression each season as a player. He continues to improve against the run.

I may be wrong but when a player from an opposing team puts up a season like MJ had last season we see much praise on these boards that say many of the things I have stated about MJ. Yet when it is on this team it becomes a fluke thing or the player has reached their ceiling actually insert any of many reasons not to give the talent on this team credit.

I guess I just wonder why it is so hard for many to see what is right infront of them on this team yet see so clearly what is on other teams? I think the consensus is that Zimmer is a pretty good DC and he seems to hold MJ in pretty high regard.

One thing to keep in mind is that MJ probably takes more snaps than anyone on the line except for maybe Domata. This is for a reason and I would have to think that a key factor is the trust of Zimmer is his ability. The thing I keep in mind with a guy like Gilberry is that Zimmer is selectively putting him in positions for success.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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I can respect your opinion but absolutely do not agree with it. Let me start by saying that for a rotational player I have as much of a mancrush on Gilberry as you can possibly have. However, I do not feel he is in the caliber of MJ.

I feel MJ has not scratched the surface of how good he can be. I think he is still discovering what he can do with that physically freakish body. He has shown progression each season as a player. He continues to improve against the run.

I may be wrong but when a player from an opposing team puts up a season like MJ had last season we see much praise on these boards that say many of the things I have stated about MJ. Yet when it is on this team it becomes a fluke thing or the player has reached their ceiling actually insert any of many reasons not to give the talent on this team credit.

I guess I just wonder why it is so hard for many to see what is right infront of them on this team yet see so clearly what is on other teams? I think the consensus is that Zimmer is a pretty good DC and he seems to hold MJ in pretty high regard.

One thing to keep in mind is that MJ probably takes more snaps than anyone on the line except for maybe Domata. This is for a reason and I would have to think that a key factor is the trust of Zimmer is his ability. The thing I keep in mind with a guy like Gilberry is that Zimmer is selectively putting him in positions for success.
I think you shake both make good points. With opposing lines having to account for geno with double teams, someone should be seeing single teams. I would like to see mj get a little more consistent but in no way do I want to see the bengals let him walk. You don't just give uo on promising young pass rushing de's.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Not really true TLL. Gilberry has only played one more season than MJ, and barely played as a rookie at all.

Gilberry has appeared in 67 games to MJ's 64, and MJ has gotten a ton more snaps.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Gilberry is an excellent player, and I don't think the drop off would be as clear as you think.

Half of MJ's sacks came against backups and in that last Baltimore (basically preseason) game.

I think MJ isn't as great as people think, and Gilberry is better than people think.
This sounds like February of 2012 and lots of members on the Rucker bandwagon. They were upset we did not want to pay him starter's money which he got from Cleveland. Fast forward one year and guess who was cut and available again? Some guys are great back ups in the right situation and Cincinnati is a great place to be a situational DL.

But in the end, I love the back ups like Fanene, Rucker and Gilberry, just not paying them starter money.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Yeah, looking back the 6 seasons was my mistake.. NFL.com had 6 seasons listed, but I didn't pay attention because he's 2 years older, and 2 of them are from 2012 from 2 different teams. So yes, only one more season.

Still, the games appeared and snap difference, that's because MJ is simply a better player. Better players will appear in games more often, and will get more snaps. I just refuse to believe that Gilberry will excel as a starter. He filled the exact same role that Jonathan Fanene did.

Fanene 2011: 24 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 pdef, 0 int, 0 ff
Gilberry 2012: 24 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 0 pdef, 0 int, 1 ff

Seriously.. the exact same number of tackles and sacks. It's because they're system players. It's guys like Atkins, MJ, and Dunlap who allow people like Fanene and Gilberry to come in on a rotation.

I'll grant you that Gilberry has had a bit more success in the past, but nowhere near starting material. In return, you have to admit that seeing those stats next to each other gives you pause and makes you think maybe just possibly he is indeed getting that production from the system.
Wallace led the league in pressures by a 3-4 DE while in KC. It's not just our system.

In this article, PFF named Gilberry as KC's secret superstar of 2010 (KC went 10-6 that year).

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...s-city-chiefs/

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Originally Posted by OSUfan View Post
I can respect your opinion but absolutely do not agree with it. Let me start by saying that for a rotational player I have as much of a mancrush on Gilberry as you can possibly have. However, I do not feel he is in the caliber of MJ.

I feel MJ has not scratched the surface of how good he can be. I think he is still discovering what he can do with that physically freakish body. He has shown progression each season as a player. He continues to improve against the run.

I may be wrong but when a player from an opposing team puts up a season like MJ had last season we see much praise on these boards that say many of the things I have stated about MJ. Yet when it is on this team it becomes a fluke thing or the player has reached their ceiling actually insert any of many reasons not to give the talent on this team credit.

I guess I just wonder why it is so hard for many to see what is right infront of them on this team yet see so clearly what is on other teams? I think the consensus is that Zimmer is a pretty good DC and he seems to hold MJ in pretty high regard.

One thing to keep in mind is that MJ probably takes more snaps than anyone on the line except for maybe Domata. This is for a reason and I would have to think that a key factor is the trust of Zimmer is his ability. The thing I keep in mind with a guy like Gilberry is that Zimmer is selectively putting him in positions for success.
I never said he was the same caliber as MJ, but he is much closer than people think. Especially from a pass rushing perspective. I'm not saying we should dump MJ for Gilberry at all. What I'm driving at is this: would you rather pay 6 years/80 million for MJ (and risk losing Andre, Geno, AJ or Andy)...or would you rather give 4 years/15 million (roughly) to Gilberry? Which is a better value?

Gilberry is an extremely capable pass rusher. If he'd played the entire season with a few more snaps, he could've easily topped 10 sacks this year. If we can get him cheap, it would be a better deal than giving MJ an elite contract. Gilberry can't defend the run? Draft a DE who can defend the run, then sub in Gilberry on passing downs. Teams do this all the time. Having a DE who can capably do both is a luxury, but is it a luxury worth 80 million?
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