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  #151  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Wallace led the league in pressures by a 3-4 DE while in KC. It's not just our system.

In this article, PFF named Gilberry as KC's secret superstar of 2010 (KC went 10-6 that year).

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...s-city-chiefs/



I never said he was the same caliber as MJ, but he is much closer than people think. Especially from a pass rushing perspective. I'm not saying we should dump MJ for Gilberry at all. What I'm driving at is this: would you rather pay 6 years/80 million for MJ (and risk losing Andre, Geno, AJ or Andy)...or would you rather give 4 years/15 million (roughly) to Gilberry? Which is a better value?

Gilberry is an extremely capable pass rusher. If he'd played the entire season with a few more snaps, he could've easily topped 10 sacks this year. If we can get him cheap, it would be a better deal than giving MJ an elite contract. Gilberry can't defend the run? Draft a DE who can defend the run, then sub in Gilberry on passing downs. Teams do this all the time. Having a DE who can capably do both is a luxury, but is it a luxury worth 80 million?
I am curious if he was young and so great in 2010, why was he cut? Was he hurt or something else?
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  #152  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:33 PM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Sanu for at least a season or two will be the#2 in the mold of a TJ. He will line up opposite AJ on traditional two receiver sets and will slide inside on multiple receiver sets.
the #2 spot isn't Sanu's place...his skill set makes him a slot player or as you suggest a #2 disguised as a slot...you're mention of TJ goes back to other post/debates you and I have had regarding where TJ had his best numbers, and those when when he was PRIMARILY in slot.
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  #153  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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the #2 spot isn't Sanu's place...his skill set makes him a slot player or as you suggest a #2 disguised as a slot...you're mention of TJ goes back to other post/debates you and I have had regarding where TJ had his best numbers, and those when when he was PRIMARILY in slot.
I agree Sanu can play the outside, but my guess his best production will come from the slot or in motion off of the outside.
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  #154  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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I agree Sanu can play the outside, but my guess his best production will come from the slot or in motion off of the outside.
totally agree...I was replying to another member who suggested that Sanu could play @2...reply suggested that Sanu could mimmick TJ, who played outside and the slot...

Sanu's best in slot, just as TJ's best numbers came out of slot.
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  #155  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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I am curious if he was young and so great in 2010, why was he cut? Was he hurt or something else?
I've read different takes on why the Chiefs didn't resign him (he wasn't cut). Most think he lost his pass rushing effectiveness after he gained weight to become a 3 down player in their 3-4 defense.

Some Chiefs fans said they thought he could be an every down DE in a 4-3, and all Chiefs fans seemed to think highly of him.

I've read on multiple sites that he was a fan favorite.

This link from arrowheadaddict.com has this to say about Gilberry:

"Wallace Gilberry could be a Pro Bowler in a 4-3 defense. Again, bad because the Chiefs run a 3-4."

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/02/0...lace-gilberry/

Gilberry's 2010 season was lauded by PFF as possibly the 2nd best by a 3-4 DE that year.

"Obviously (Justin) Smith was far and away the best 3-4 DE in the NFL but Gilberry came remarkable close to Smith’s numbers in sacks and pressures in 200 fewer snaps."

"Where Gilberry fell short this year was in his run defense. That brings us back to the fact that Gilberry is playing in the wrong defense. He is just too undersized to be a full time, effective DE in a 3-4 defense. Jared Allen is 270 pounds and Gilberry is 278. He should be playing DE in a 4-3 defense. He has grown so much as a pass rusher that he could probably be an excellent pass rushing specialist, similar to Allen, in the right scheme."

These quotes are also from the above link.
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  #156  
Old 02-10-2013, 04:06 PM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by chasf316 View Post
the #2 spot isn't Sanu's place...his skill set makes him a slot player or as you suggest a #2 disguised as a slot...you're mention of TJ goes back to other post/debates you and I have had regarding where TJ had his best numbers, and those when when he was PRIMARILY in slot.
So while he was primarily in the slot who was playing the snaps across from Chad in two receiver sets? Or are you trying to state that we lined up in more multiple receiver sets than two receiver sets? Do you have any data that shows how many snaps TJ took at each position or is it pure speculation?

Yes you continue to say this yet you have not shown any data to support this ...at this time. ..theory.
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  #157  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
I've read different takes on why the Chiefs didn't resign him (he wasn't cut). Most think he lost his pass rushing effectiveness after he gained weight to become a 3 down player in their 3-4 defense.

Some Chiefs fans said they thought he could be an every down DE in a 4-3, and all Chiefs fans seemed to think highly of him.

I've read on multiple sites that he was a fan favorite.

This link from arrowheadaddict.com has this to say about Gilberry:

"Wallace Gilberry could be a Pro Bowler in a 4-3 defense. Again, bad because the Chiefs run a 3-4."

http://arrowheadaddict.com/2011/02/0...lace-gilberry/

Gilberry's 2010 season was lauded by PFF as possibly the 2nd best by a 3-4 DE that year.

"Obviously (Justin) Smith was far and away the best 3-4 DE in the NFL but Gilberry came remarkable close to Smith’s numbers in sacks and pressures in 200 fewer snaps."

"Where Gilberry fell short this year was in his run defense. That brings us back to the fact that Gilberry is playing in the wrong defense. He is just too undersized to be a full time, effective DE in a 3-4 defense. Jared Allen is 270 pounds and Gilberry is 278. He should be playing DE in a 4-3 defense. He has grown so much as a pass rusher that he could probably be an excellent pass rushing specialist, similar to Allen, in the right scheme."

These quotes are also from the above link.
Thanks, it sounds like he was a better fit for a 4-3 all along and they tried to turn him into a 3-4 DL so maybe he can be a great 4-3 end.

I like the guy and want to keep him. I just don't want to pay him 5 million a year based on a part time roll. If he is that good, he needs to force his way onto the field more. I say sig him for one year at 3 million and let him prove he be a starter production wise by beating out Dunlap.
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  #158  
Old 02-10-2013, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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So while he was primarily in the slot who was playing the snaps across from Chad in two receiver sets? Or are you trying to state that we lined up in more multiple receiver sets than two receiver sets? Do you have any data that shows how many snaps TJ took at each position or is it pure speculation?

Yes you continue to say this yet you have not shown any data to support this ...at this time. ..theory.
I have supported this with stats in other threads that debated your stance (last one centered on your opinion that Hartline should be pursued by the Bengals in FA, in spite of his being a redzone liability)...when TJ had his best seasons 06 thru 08, it was in the slot, when the Bengals used more 3 WR sets

Additionally...TJ could play outside AND the slot...he prospered more so in slot...06-08 proves that

Sanu has the physical skills to be a better slot than TJ, but he probably doesn't possess TJ's versatility in playing the 2
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  #159  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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So while he was primarily in the slot who was playing the snaps across from Chad in two receiver sets? Or are you trying to state that we lined up in more multiple receiver sets than two receiver sets? Do you have any data that shows how many snaps TJ took at each position or is it pure speculation?

Yes you continue to say this yet you have not shown any data to support this ...at this time. ..theory.
Man it's been awhile, but I remember Henry, Walter, and Washington playing the slot most times. Occasionally Henry would line up at the #2 and TJ at slot, but from my memory TJ was in the slot when we were running twins with a TE and two backs in the backfield.

It's been a while, but I don't remember TJ working a ton from the slot either.
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  #160  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Your adding stuff now bro....go back to the comment you bolded, and my response......My response is valid to only the comment I have bolded from your post. The statement of "The only way to get Wallace is to let AJ walk" is a lie. Im not referring any other stuff in that post. Simply put, there are many ways to get Mike, and keep AJ
Lol.

Ok, you got me.

They COULD afford to keep them both and have about 25-27 mil wrapped up in one position.

That would severely limit keeping anyone else that they need to extend and put more pressure on the draft.

I guess you are on board with that.

Any smart franchise wouldn't do it.

This franchise won't do it, especially when they really want to be a running offense.
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  #161  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Man it's been awhile, but I remember Henry, Walter, and Washington playing the slot most times. Occasionally Henry would line up at the #2 and TJ at slot, but from my memory TJ was in the slot when we were running twins with a TE and two backs in the backfield.

It's been a while, but I don't remember TJ working a ton from the slot either.
When Walter and Washington were gone, TJ played a great deal in slot (06-08) heck he talked about on the NFL network several times...Henry lined up a heck of a lot less in slot than TJ
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  #162  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:37 AM
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bengals Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Lol.

Ok, you got me.

They COULD afford to keep them both and have about 25-27 mil wrapped up in one position.

That would severely limit keeping anyone else that they need to extend and put more pressure on the draft.

I guess you are on board with that.

Any smart franchise wouldn't do it.

This franchise won't do it, especially when they really want to be a running offense.
The price tags are pure speculation at this point. We have no idea what either is asking for. I do think some are inflating their price tags.
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  #163  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

Wallace to Cleveland looks to be the real talk churning...


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2...cap-quandaries


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5329/mike-wallace
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  #164  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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The price tags are pure speculation at this point. We have no idea what either is asking for. I do think some are inflating their price tags.
Maybe.

Wallace and AJ would take up a lot of cap space for quite a few years.

25-27 mil of cap space per year for both seems reasonable to me.

Calvin Johnsons average salary is 18 mil so 14-15 for AJ isn't out of the question.

DeSean Jacksons average salary is 9.4 mil so 9-10 for Wallace isn't out of the question.
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  #165  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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So while he was primarily in the slot who was playing the snaps across from Chad in two receiver sets? Or are you trying to state that we lined up in more multiple receiver sets than two receiver sets? Do you have any data that shows how many snaps TJ took at each position or is it pure speculation?

Yes you continue to say this yet you have not shown any data to support this ...at this time. ..theory.
It's not theory it's history. TJ made most of his plays out of the slot.

"As a precise route runner with exceptional quickness, Houshmandzadeh does most of his damage from the slot in the Bengals' spread offense, and the Bengals currently lack a suitable replacement on their roster. But the Bengals must be careful not to overpay Houshmandzadeh for his role as their No. 2 receiver. A former coach of a divisional rival says, "Houshmandzadeh is a great slot receiver, but he benefits from having Johnson on the outside. Without Johnson commanding double teams, T.J. wouldn't be able to feast off single coverage from the slot."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...uzz/index.html
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  #166  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Maybe.

Wallace and AJ would take up a lot of cap space for quite a few years.

25-27 mil of cap space per year for both seems reasonable to me.

Calvin Johnsons average salary is 18 mil so 14-15 for AJ isn't out of the question.

DeSean Jacksons average salary is 9.4 mil so 9-10 for Wallace isn't out of the question.

Man if we had those 2 on the outside, it would be on like Donkey Kong. Holy crap Sanu and Gresham would have monster numbers.

Not to mention whoever is running the ball lol
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  #167  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

Apparently, as previously stated, Cleveland is going to do everything in their power to get Wallace in their jersey. The Bengals? Not so much. Joe Reedy even stated that he thinks the number 2 receive was "drafted last year (Sanu/Jones)". Sorry If I am not as 'optimistic'. Especially with a talent like Mike Wallace.
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  #168  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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Apparently, as previously stated, Cleveland is going to do everything in their power to get Wallace in their jersey. The Bengals? Not so much. Joe Reedy even stated that he thinks the number 2 receive was "drafted last year (Sanu/Jones)". Sorry If I am not as 'optimistic'. Especially with a talent like Mike Wallace.
If we really do go into next season relying on Sanu/Jones, and neither pan out, it will be yet another wasted season.
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  #169  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

Personally I hope any team besides an AFCN teams signs Wallace, id like to see him out of the division so we dont have to face him twice a year.
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  #170  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:53 AM
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Personally I hope any team besides an AFCN teams signs Wallace, id like to see him out of the division so we dont have to face him twice a year.
If the Browns sign him I wouldn't mind watching more TDs bounce off his hands.
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  #171  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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If the Browns sign him I wouldn't mind watching more TDs bounce off his hands.
Silly. He had 32 TDs in 4 years. Just because he dropped one against us doesn't make him a bum.
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  #172  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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Silly. He had 32 TDs in 4 years. Just because he dropped one against us doesn't make him a bum.
Didn't say he was a bum. And I believe his drops this year were probably a result of having a contract situation looming over his head. But he had more than one big drop this year.

My thoughts still stand. If he signs with the Browns I wouldn't mind watching more TDs bounce off his hands.
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  #173  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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Originally Posted by Stewee28 View Post
about Mike Wallace landing in Cincinnati....

Per Stripe Hype...



I know its stripe hype but the fact that other sources are beginning to bring the topic up, I figured I would throw this topic back on the board.

Would you want Wallace here? How much would you pay him?
Idk man, if AJ don't get it together with the drops we might end up with a Bengals version of the "dropsy twins" (albeit a much more talented version) that Pitt had last year. I think my guy Hartline is a better fit relative to reliability and affordability BUT, don't get me wrong.

As long as we still have money to pay AJ with later, that would be a very dynamic starting tandem and I'd be geeked to see how it worked out.
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  #174  
Old 02-12-2013, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: Talk beginning to churn

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Wallace would be the new Chris Henry (On the field, not off) the Z guy that is primarily put on the field to go deep. While this would be nice, we don't have a strong armed QB like Palmer to hit him on 70 bombs. What we really really need is a Tj "Whos Ya Momma" to play next to Aj not a Wallace. Sanu I think fits that bill more than Jones. Jones will be our new Henry and Sanu will be Tj. The starting 3 WR should be AJ, Sanu, Jones.
This is exactly how it will play out, and in my opinion there is nothing wrong with it. Sanu showed he can be the possession guy, and Jones showed he can get deep. There is no reason to spend millions on a bad attitude guy when that money can be spent elsewhere. By the end of next season Marvin Jones will be compared to Mike Wallace and the FO will look like geniuses for not signing a guy for 10 mil a year when they already have the same talent on the field for pennies on the dollar.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Why it would be wise to go After Mike Wallace

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
It's not theory it's history. TJ made most of his plays out of the slot.

"As a precise route runner with exceptional quickness, Houshmandzadeh does most of his damage from the slot in the Bengals' spread offense, and the Bengals currently lack a suitable replacement on their roster. But the Bengals must be careful not to overpay Houshmandzadeh for his role as their No. 2 receiver. A former coach of a divisional rival says, "Houshmandzadeh is a great slot receiver, but he benefits from having Johnson on the outside. Without Johnson commanding double teams, T.J. wouldn't be able to feast off single coverage from the slot."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...uzz/index.html
thank you for further cementing my point...it makes me wonder what games some were watching in the past...many historical revisionists are manifested in vain attempts to solidify misguided perceptions. If you're wrong...well you're wrong and employ dignity in acceptance.
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