Is MJ worth the money?

[Since82]

Originally Posted by Bull Durham

If Johnson played for another team, fans on his board would be clamoring for us to sign a guy like him and complaining that the bengals never go after impact free agents like MJ in the prime of their careers.

Yeah, but a lot of us would want to be signing him cheap too.

Frankly 6yr/45M sounds about right. You can vary your salary and bonuses to make him have a salary cap hit between 6-10 million depending on bonuses.

[TheLeonardLeap]

I see some people's argument is he got 5 sacks against the Redskins/Ravens.. but last I checked the Bengals won both of those games, and neither by more than 7. Who's to say without those 5 sacks you suddenly deem worthless, the Bengals lose one of those two games? If they lose one of those two games, they're 9-7 and miss the playoffs. There's no such thing as garbage sacks in games you win. All great pass rushers rack up sacks against terrible opponents.

Aldon Smith got 5.5 of his 19.5 sacks against an atrocious Bears team. Good players get sacks against the people they should get sacks against. It's the same as a good team winning against a bad team. You're expected to, and when you do, the win isn't worth any less.

Ask yourself this.. how often do 26 year old RDEs FAs who just came off a 10+ sack season change teams? Answer? Almost never, because you can't simply just pick up a young 10+ sack RDE off of the shelf at the super market. Effective pass rush is always worth the money. How many other 11+ sack seasons can you name for the Bengals in the last 20 years? 1? Atkins? Clearly not someone you can just easily replace in the draft.

Since sacks became an officially tracked stat in 1982... there has not been a single player who has gotten 50 sacks as a Bengal. Justin Smith is the closest with 43.5 as a Bengal. Four years into his career, Michael Johnson is almost half way there, and his first two years were wasted on Lewis trying to make him an OLB. Think about that.

[chasf316]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

I see some people's argument is he got 5 sacks against the Redskins/Ravens.. but last I checked the Bengals won both of those games, and neither by more than 7. Who's to say without those 5 sacks you suddenly deem worthless, the Bengals lose one of those two games? If they lose one of those two games, they're 9-7 and miss the playoffs. There's no such thing as garbage sacks in games you win. All great pass rushers rack up sacks against terrible opponents.

Aldon Smith got 5.5 of his 19.5 sacks against an atrocious Bears team. Good players get sacks against the people they should get sacks against. It's the same as a good team winning against a bad team. You're expected to, and when you do, the win isn't worth any less.

Ask yourself this.. how often do 26 year old RDEs FAs who just came off a 10+ sack season change teams? Answer? Almost never, because you can't simply just pick up a young 10+ sack RDE off of the shelf at the super market. Effective pass rush is always worth the money. How many other 11+ sack seasons can you name for the Bengals in the last 20 years? 1? Atkins? Clearly not someone you can just easily replace in the draft.

Since sacks became an officially tracked stat in 1982... there has not been a single player who has gotten 50 sacks as a Bengal. Justin Smith is the closest with 43.5 as a Bengal. Four years into his career, Michael Johnson is almost half way there, and his first two years were wasted on Lewis trying to make him an OLB. Think about that.

I didn't deem MJ's 3 sacks against the Skins as worthless...simply stated that they came against a rookie G forced into playing LT due to an injury early in the game...

Yes...Aldon Smith did feast on sacks against a weak Bears' OL, however, Aldon got 14 OTHER sacks in 15 games

your third point...how often do young RDE come along with 10+ sack seasons?...um, there's 3 on the Giants, who ALL played RDE at one point or another and registered 10+ sacks, Umenyiora, Tuck, and Pierre-Paul

If you read my other posts, I stated that MJ SHOULD be re-signed, but at a reasonable price...let's be real...prior to last season, could we say that MJ was earning his rookie contract up to this point? and again, those 3 sacks against Skins weren't worthless (never remotely suggested that) BUT they did come against a player that would not have been in that position if not for an injury. If you wanna exclude Aldon Smith's game against the Bears, then it's fair to erase MJ's game against Skins, which leaves us with a 8 sack season.

Your final point about MJ at OLB is puzzling...you do realize that was only in a limited set of plays...his smaller frame prior to the 2012 season dictated Lewis' attempt at making him a tweener...remember, he put on 20 lbs before this past season...hence more time at RDE

And oh yeah...Justin Smith played nearly half his snaps inside when he was a Bengal...man I miss Justin Smith; sideline to sideline, snap to whistle

[Aquapod770]

The guy who lead our DEs in sacks and played the most snaps on the DLine...ummm yeah he is worth it.

[gardner30]

I honestly think the Bengals aren't sure if he is worth the money and that's why they will franchise him on a prove it basis.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by chasf316

your third point...how often do young RDE come along with 10+ sack seasons?...um, there's 3 on the Giants, who ALL played RDE at one point or another and registered 10+ sacks, Umenyiora, Tuck, and Pierre-Paul

No, I am not saying young RDE who have 10+ sack seasons.. I am saying how often to teams let young RDEs who have 10+ sack seasons walk in FA. Note how you named THREE for the Giants, and they kept all three. Only now that Osi is 31, are they looking at letting him go. Simple fact is, sane teams don't let go of young productive pass rushers.

As to your question of if MJ had been playing up to his rookie contract, then my answer would be yes. He's improved every year, become a starter, and plays the most snaps of anyone else on the D-Line... as a third round pick. He is the Bengals's best 3rd round pick since David Fulcher in 1986, and most likely in the top seven 3rd round picks in Bengals franchise history.... If that's not living up to his rookie contract, I don't know what is.

List of some recent 3rd round picks:
Dontay Moch- 0 statistics in 2 seasons
Mohamed Sanu- 15 catches/154 yards/4 tds in 1 season
Brandon Thompson- 1 tackle in 1 season
Jordan Shipley- 79 catches/858 yards/4 tds in 3 seasons
Brandon Ghee- 10 tackles in 3 seasons
Chase Coffman- 4 catches/41 yards in 4 seasons
Andre Caldwell- 125 catches/1,190 yards/6 tds in 5 seasons
Pat Sims- 138 tackles/5 sacks/1 int in 5 seasons
Frostee Rucker- 153 tackles/11 sacks/1 int/4 ff in 7 seasons
Chris Henry- 119 catches/1,826 yards/21 tds in 5 seasons (Not In NFL)
Caleb Miller- 162 tackles/1 sack/1 ff in 4 seasons (Not In NFL)
Landon Johnson- 478 tackles/3.5 sacks/1 int/9 ff in 7 seasons (Not In NFL)

The list goes on and on like that... then you have this.

Michael Johnson- 146 tackles/23 sacks/2 int/1 ff in 4 seasons.

See? Now you have a better idea of how MJ has performed as a third round pick compared to his peers. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that he hadn't performed to his rookie contract when that rookie contract was a third round pick and he's one of the Bengals best in decades.

[WhoDeyWalker]

Its not my money. Sign him. People always stepping over dollars to pick up a penny. Stop being so cheap

[Sham69Rock]

I've said it before, I'd take M. Wallace + Wallace G. starting on this team way over I want to see the return of M. Jones + M. Johnson as our '13 starters.................Only way that I want Johnson back is if he's willing to sign a reasonable deal that won't hurt our ability to be major players in free agency.....I don't like the idea of the Bengals handing him top 5 money @ all

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by chasf316

that tag is gonna cost around 11 million.

Doesn't bother me. Not my money, and they've got to spend the cap space they have somewhere. If they aren't planning to go outside the organization to spend it (they aren't), then might as well pay the good players they've developed.

11 million may sound like a lot, but that's done after one year. They're not on the hook for anything if he gets hurt or underperforms. They can invest it somewhere else after 2013 if they see fit. A multi year deal for 10 plus per year over five years would scare me regardless of the player. Not so much with one year at 11. The risk is minimized.

Honestly, if they're not willing to spend the money on a guy like MJ, then what? Maybe they give Geno a 25 million dollar signing bonus and sign a bunch of the usual 3rd tier aging vets and malcontents. I hope not.

[SunsetBengal]

Well, it seems that we (the board) aren't able to come up with a number that is both realistic, as well as would be appealing to MJ to remain a Bengal.

Those offers of 5-6M per just ain't gonna cut it in today's market.

If I were to imagine something sensible to both sides, it would go something like. 5 yr 65M, with nice signing bonus, an average of 8-8.5M per in base, with performance escalators making the balance of the 65M.

To those of you that might think that is a high offer, go look at the top salaries of DEs.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

Well, it seems that we (the board) aren't able to come up with a number that is both realistic, as well as would be appealing to MJ to remain a Bengal.

Those offers of 5-6M per just ain't gonna cut it in today's market.

If I were to imagine something sensible to both sides, it would go something like. 5 yr 65M, with nice signing bonus, an average of 8-8.5M per in base, with performance escalators making the balance of the 65M.

To those of you that might think that is a high offer, go look at the top salaries of DEs.

If I were him and they opened at 5-6 million per, I'd turn around and walk out. There's little to no chance that he signs for that little if he gets to the open market. That's as lowball as it gets without an absolute monster signing bonus.

[Since82]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

Well, it seems that we (the board) aren't able to come up with a number that is both realistic, as well as would be appealing to MJ to remain a Bengal.

Those offers of 5-6M per just ain't gonna cut it in today's market.

If I were to imagine something sensible to both sides, it would go something like. 5 yr 65M, with nice signing bonus, an average of 8-8.5M per in base, with performance escalators making the balance of the 65M.

To those of you that might think that is a high offer, go look at the top salaries of DEs.

Elvis Dumervil got a 6yr/61.5M contract after having 43 sacks his first four years. Michael Johnson had 21 sacks in four years (Dumervil had 17 in his contract season to MJ's 11.5 before you look). Love MJ, love to have him back, but if he starts getting over 10M in cap hits per year we got taken. MJ had ONE good year and is not yet in the stratosphere of some of those "top" DE. At that money I'd let someone else overpay him. I'd take cap hits of 7.5 to 9.5M per year with salary and bonuses however he wants it.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by Bengal4ever68

Let him go & draft margus hunt with our 2A pick. Mj is average.

Margus Hunt will not be a premier pass rusher in the NFL. Looks more LDE than RDE IMO.

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by Since82

Elvis Dumervil got a 6yr/61.5M contract after having 43 sacks his first four years. Michael Johnson had 21 sacks in four years (Dumervil had 17 in his contract season to MJ's 11.5 before you look). Love MJ, love to have him back, but if he starts getting over 10M in cap hits per year we got taken. MJ had ONE good year and is not yet in the stratosphere of some of those "top" DE. At that money I'd let someone else overpay him. I'd take cap hits of 7.5 to 9.5M per year with salary and bonuses however he wants it.

So, then you agree with my hypothetical offer?

[Since82]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

So, then you agree with my hypothetical offer?

Too high.

6/57 is about as high as I would go or 5/48. If I did my math right your contract would have to average about a 13M (5/65) cap hit which IMO is way too high.

[Shahjahan]

Yes he is worth the money!

If we let MJ walk and let's say we replace him with a rookie. By the time that rookie's contract is up we would have to pay him much more than we would be paying MJ now... the NFL inflation is crazy. Sign him to a long deal and halfway through his contract the money won't seemlike that much.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

[quote=chasf316;2805752]you said:

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

First of all, Jordan Black is like a 9 year veteran. Secondly, he's a tackle .

you're incorrect...maybe you remember that Black was hurt on the 2nd play from scrimmage, so it was Lichtensteiger playing LT and was handed his lunch to him by MJ.

and the Super Bowl that I watched saw a injured (playing @ 80%) Justin Smith across from McKinnie...Aldon was primarily across from the RT and in front of Bowman...

and McKinnie is no Jonathan Ogden.

besides all that...do they pay MJ and if so, how much?

And MJ isn't Bruce Smith, thus that argument is moot.

Honestly, relevance? McKinnie is still good enough so why even entertain that comment?

Nice try.

BTW, notice the amount of snaps played by whom, as well as where they took those snaps:



You were saying? You don't even know your players or their service time, and you're telling me **I'M** wrong?

EDIT: Who even remembers Briscoe doing anything in that game?

[SunsetBengal]

Originally Posted by Since82

Too high.

6/57 is about as high as I would go or 5/48. If I did my math right your contract would have to average about a 13M (5/65) cap hit which IMO is way too high.

That 5/65 idea was only 42.5 guaranteed. I was thinking 10M signing bonus, and the rest in performance escalators. (I'm relatively certain that I typed that into the first post...)

[IndianaBengal984]

Yes

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by SunsetBengal

Well, it seems that we (the board) aren't able to come up with a number that is both realistic, as well as would be appealing to MJ to remain a Bengal.

Those offers of 5-6M per just ain't gonna cut it in today's market.

If I were to imagine something sensible to both sides, it would go something like. 5 yr 65M, with nice signing bonus, an average of 8-8.5M per in base, with performance escalators making the balance of the 65M.

To those of you that might think that is a high offer, go look at the top salaries of DEs.

I wouldn't sign MJ for more than 5 yrs 45 mil.

That is 10 mil more than Kamerion Wimbley got.

I would structure the contract heavy in year 1 and year 5 so the cap relief is in the middle years.

That would save the Bengals cap room when Dalton and AJ come due.

If he wants more than that then I would tag him and make him prove he can repeat the productivity.

[BoomerFan]

On the one hand, he knows the system. On the other, this may have been his best year and a bit of an outlier.

I'd rather keep him than roll the dice with another FA. Even if he is pricey. Unless we can bring in a guaranteed pro-bowler, in which case that would be worth top dollar. Like Peppers two years ago.

[chasf316]

[quote=Truck_1_0_1_;2805912]

Originally Posted by chasf316

you said:
And MJ isn't Bruce Smith, thus that argument is moot.

Honestly, relevance? McKinnie is still good enough so why even entertain that comment?

Nice try.

BTW, notice the amount of snaps played by whom, as well as where they took those snaps:



You were saying? You don't even know your players or their service time, and you're telling me **I'M** wrong?

EDIT: Who even remembers Briscoe doing anything in that game?

I got it...I solidified my point with a fact regarding the Skins game and you're trying to correct me by using perspective in relation to McKinnie...ok

[DWright]

Of course you give some money to both MJ and Andre

Michael Johnson is a 3 down Defensive End. He can set the edge and is getting better every season as a pass rusher. He isnt a huge playmaker, but he is consistant which is just as important. Resign Johnson and look for play makers to put around him in the draft. (Linebackers WLB or MLB ).

[XenoMorph]

YES!!!!!! he is,.. the DL carries this team and other than Geno hes the most productive person on it.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

[quote=chasf316;2806037]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

I got it...I solidified my point with a fact regarding the Skins game and you're trying to correct me by using perspective in relation to McKinnie...ok

Thanks for ignoring my evidence and making things up on your own.

Done.