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  #51  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

Guess it depends on "the money" we are talking about?


I definitely don't want to see him making top 10 DE money, as he's a solid sacks guy, but he's only done it one season and not a big turnover guy, 6 total FF+FR+INT over 4 seasons. Hopefully the sacks are due to a changing of his style, arms up looking to bat down passes more his first 3 seasons, but more of an effort after the QB this past season.


I like MJ as a Bengal and think he excels in the rotation, working with Atkins and Dunlap, but believe if push came to shove, he is replaceable.
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  #52  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by BengalRugby View Post
Guess it depends on "the money" we are talking about?


I definitely don't want to see him making top 10 DE money, as he's a solid sacks guy, but he's only done it one season and not a big turnover guy, 6 total FF+FR+INT over 4 seasons. Hopefully the sacks are due to a changing of his style, arms up looking to bat down passes more his first 3 seasons, but more of an effort after the QB this past season.


I like MJ as a Bengal and think he excels in the rotation, working with Atkins and Dunlap, but believe if push came to shove, he is replaceable.
Yeah he did play most of last year hurt. But Both dunlap and Johnson are replaceable...

Who will be easier to replace is the question. MJ gets alot more snaps than Dunlap.
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  #53  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

Yeah he did play most of last year hurt. But Both dunlap and Johnson are replaceable...

Who will be easier to replace is the question. MJ gets alot more snaps than Dunlap.



People were talking about how vanilla and non-impact MJ was prior to Dunlap getting back in the line up. Then once Carlos came back, MJ really turned it on.

Considering the points they are at in their careers, I like Dunlap more. In his third year, only 6 sacks, but 4 forced fumbles, 3 fumbles recovered, 1 INT, 1 TD, 3 PD, and 6 stuffs.

Compared to MJ now, 11.5 sacks, 0 FF, 1 FR, 1 INT, 0 TD, 2 PD, 2 stuffs.

Even Ding Gilberry, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 3 FR, 0 INT, 0 TD, 0 PD, 1 stuff.


I guess it comes down to stats you like to see the players make? I tend to value turnovers more, and opine sacks to be the same as stuffs. Also, in playing more snaps, MJ has the opportunity to amass more stats, which I love since I was concerned he might turn into an injury case if he added to much mass too quickly.


I see MJ as more replaceable, but opinions vary.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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I honestly think the Bengals aren't sure if he is worth the money and that's why they will franchise him on a prove it basis.
Franchising an Above Average player is lousy-frickin economics. A franchise tag will cost about $11 million; MJ is not worth that and NO team will pay him that. his worth is probably in the $7 million range. Pay him that or a little more, or let him walk and do something else with your $7 million. Like sign Reggie Bush or Paul Kruger. MJ is a good player who we'd like to retain at a generous price. But let's not advocate breaking the bank.

We have no player this time around I'd advocate using the Franchise tag on. AJ, and Geno are in that category. JJo and Justin Smith were but we fumbled the ball on both of those. The Bengals know exactly what MJ is worth. MJ's agent also has a good idea on how much (more) he is worth on the open market. MJ will have to decide whether he plays for the Bengals for x dollars or for somebody else for a little more. It is when we're quibbling for these "pennies" that the Bengals don't do very well.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Yeah he did play most of last year hurt. But Both dunlap and Johnson are replaceable...

Who will be easier to replace is the question. MJ gets alot more snaps than Dunlap.



People were talking about how vanilla and non-impact MJ was prior to Dunlap getting back in the line up. Then once Carlos came back, MJ really turned it on.

Considering the points they are at in their careers, I like Dunlap more. In his third year, only 6 sacks, but 4 forced fumbles, 3 fumbles recovered, 1 INT, 1 TD, 3 PD, and 6 stuffs.

Compared to MJ now, 11.5 sacks, 0 FF, 1 FR, 1 INT, 0 TD, 2 PD, 2 stuffs.

Even Ding Gilberry, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 3 FR, 0 INT, 0 TD, 0 PD, 1 stuff.


I guess it comes down to stats you like to see the players make? I tend to value turnovers more, and opine sacks to be the same as stuffs. Also, in playing more snaps, MJ has the opportunity to amass more stats, which I love since I was concerned he might turn into an injury case if he added to much mass too quickly.


I see MJ as more replaceable, but opinions vary.
I agree......plus the world certainly wouldn't come to an end if Dingleberry had to take over. Our D would still be hella' solid. Let's spend the $ on Dre + some offensive playmakers (sumthin' this team seriously lacks) I mean, like someone else mentioned this ain't exactly Bruce Smith we're talking about here. I'll give MJ credit, he's been our most productive 3rd rounder since Steve Tovar. But he is definitely replaceable. Hell, from what I've seen so far so is Dunlap. Resign Gilberry + pick up scrap heaps Fanene & Rucker, + we'd probably be alright. Our strength is on the INSIDE of our D-Line, NOT the outside. We have 2 major free agents coming up in the near future in Geno + AJ (3 if Dalton can ever get his #%@! together) + we have some serious holes on the Offenssive side of the ball. Just my 2 cents.

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  #56  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Franchising an Above Average player is lousy-frickin economics. A franchise tag will cost about $11 million; MJ is not worth that and NO team will pay him that. his worth is probably in the $7 million range. Pay him that or a little more, or let him walk and do something else with your $7 million. Like sign Reggie Bush or Paul Kruger. MJ is a good player who we'd like to retain at a generous price. But let's not advocate breaking the bank.

We have no player this time around I'd advocate using the Franchise tag on. AJ, and Geno are in that category. JJo and Justin Smith were but we fumbled the ball on both of those. The Bengals know exactly what MJ is worth. MJ's agent also has a good idea on how much (more) he is worth on the open market. MJ will have to decide whether he plays for the Bengals for x dollars or for somebody else for a little more. It is when we're quibbling for these "pennies" that the Bengals don't do very well.
Well put...it seems too many here support the idea of "paying" MJ top dollar!
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  #57  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:33 PM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Well put...it seems too many here support the idea of "paying" MJ top dollar!
No they support paying him fair money. Cracks me up how so many are gung ho about signing every Tom, ****, and Harry that is cut by another team. They support signing over priced FAs from other teams but do not want to pay their own even if they were an integral part of a top 10 defense.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

It takes two. We have 3 Having at least two pass rushers that need extra attention make the entire line better. How many sacks did Aldon Smith have when Justin Smith was hurt? Atkins inside frees up others to make plays. That is why he's so important. Any QB or OC will say the first part of pass protection is protect up the middle so the QB has a pocket. MJ and Dunlap see much better than average matchups as does Gilberry because Atkins is unstoppable 1 on 1. Why else would a player who was cut (Gilberry) improve so much? Think back to when Geathers had all his sacks and who was he paired with? Justin Smith. Johnson is real good but Atkins is HOF. Resign MJ as long as we realize that Atkins deserves to be the highest paid Dlineman in Stripes.
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  #59  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by degolfisfun View Post
Franchising an Above Average player is lousy-frickin economics. A franchise tag will cost about $11 million; MJ is not worth that and NO team will pay him that. his worth is probably in the $7 million range. Pay him that or a little more, or let him walk and do something else with your $7 million. Like sign Reggie Bush or Paul Kruger. MJ is a good player who we'd like to retain at a generous price. But let's not advocate breaking the bank.

We have no player this time around I'd advocate using the Franchise tag on. AJ, and Geno are in that category. JJo and Justin Smith were but we fumbled the ball on both of those. The Bengals know exactly what MJ is worth. MJ's agent also has a good idea on how much (more) he is worth on the open market. MJ will have to decide whether he plays for the Bengals for x dollars or for somebody else for a little more. It is when we're quibbling for these "pennies" that the Bengals don't do very well.
Yeah.

You obviously didn't read my 2nd post (see below in quotes).

The Bengals might tag him because a 26 yr old pass rusher with the potential to get better is worth overpaying for 1 year to see if he can repeat the production.

It is not worth overpaying him for multiple years.

The contract I listed below is a fair one if they only guarantee it for injury.

By doing that the team can cut him at any point, unless he is hurt, and not take a massive cap hit.

"I wouldn't sign MJ for more than 5 yrs 45 mil.

That is 10 mil more than Kamerion Wimbley got.

I would structure the contract heavy in year 1 and year 5 so the cap relief is in the middle years.

That would save the Bengals cap room when Dalton and AJ come due.

If he wants more than that then I would tag him and make him prove he can repeat the productivity."
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

I think people are seriously underestimating how much money MJ is going to get. 25 year old pass rushers coming off of 11.5 sack seasons don't come available often. I think he's going to get around 5 yrs/50 million. Maybe more.

I think MJ is a solid player, but I don't see him as a consistent 10 sack guy. Half his sacks came against backups. He had a couple in that last "game" against Baltimore. I see him as a 6 sack type of player, and if we pay him 50 million, it will be a huge mistake. That could be Geno or AJ's money.

We need to just franchise MJ and see if he can do it again. I have a feeling he won't.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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I think people are seriously underestimating how much money MJ is going to get. 25 year old pass rushers coming off of 11.5 sack seasons don't come available often. I think he's going to get around 5 yrs/50 million. Maybe more.

I think MJ is a solid player, but I don't see him as a consistent 10 sack guy. Half his sacks came against backups. He had a couple in that last "game" against Baltimore. I see him as a 6 sack type of player, and if we pay him 50 million, it will be a huge mistake. That could be Geno or AJ's money.

We need to just franchise MJ and see if he can do it again. I have a feeling he won't.
IMO, that is why you tag him and make him do it again.

Totally agree.

No way I would shell out 50 mil for a 1 hit wonder.

If he does it twice I might reconsider.

Some team might do it.

Tough thing for the Bengals to figure out with both Andre and MJ.

It would be easier if they were "no brainer" players like Geno or AJ.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

Yes he is worth the money...11.5 sacks and is better at defending the run. seems simple. we need MJ back. if we also say "sign our own guys first" then now is the time
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  #63  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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I think people are seriously underestimating how much money MJ is going to get. 25 year old pass rushers coming off of 11.5 sack seasons don't come available often. I think he's going to get around 5 yrs/50 million. Maybe more.

I think MJ is a solid player, but I don't see him as a consistent 10 sack guy. Half his sacks came against backups. He had a couple in that last "game" against Baltimore. I see him as a 6 sack type of player, and if we pay him 50 million, it will be a huge mistake. That could be Geno or AJ's money.

We need to just franchise MJ and see if he can do it again. I have a feeling he won't.
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IMO, that is why you tag him and make him do it again.

Totally agree.

No way I would shell out 50 mil for a 1 hit wonder.

If he does it twice I might reconsider.

Some team might do it.

Tough thing for the Bengals to figure out with both Andre and MJ.

It would be easier if they were "no brainer" players like Geno or AJ.
Totally agree with you guys. Make MJ show he can do it again.

Then you give him the deal.

He'll make the money from the tag and he's young so I'm sure he won't be upset if it happens.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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IMO, that is why you tag him and make him do it again.

Totally agree.

No way I would shell out 50 mil for a 1 hit wonder.

If he does it twice I might reconsider.

Some team might do it.

Tough thing for the Bengals to figure out with both Andre and MJ.

It would be easier if they were "no brainer" players like Geno or AJ.
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Totally agree with you guys. Make MJ show he can do it again.

Then you give him the deal.

He'll make the money from the tag and he's young so I'm sure he won't be upset if it happens.
Oh so I guess 2011 doesn't count for MJ when he was second only to Geno in snaps on the DL for our 7th ranked defense. That's cool. MJ and NFL front office personnel probably view it a little different though.

Putting too much stock into sack totals is nothing new. Sure they look pretty, but they are not everything.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:27 PM
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I agree......plus the world certainly wouldn't come to an end if Dingleberry had to take over. Our D would still be hella' solid. Let's spend the $ on Dre + some offensive playmakers (sumthin' this team seriously lacks) I mean, like someone else mentioned this ain't exactly Bruce Smith we're talking about here. I'll give MJ credit, he's been our most productive 3rd rounder since Steve Tovar. But he is definitely replaceable. Hell, from what I've seen so far so is Dunlap. Resign Gilberry + pick up scrap heaps Fanene & Rucker, + we'd probably be alright. Our strength is on the INSIDE of our D-Line, NOT the outside. We have 2 major free agents coming up in the near future in Geno + AJ (3 if Dalton can ever get his #%@! together) + we have some serious holes on the Offenssive side of the ball. Just my 2 cents.
WOWZERS!!!!

So a guy out of the league last year and a guy who finally got his chance to start and was then cut with their total of 24.5 sacks combined over their 14 total years in the league will make up for the loss of one of the best young DEs in the game. OK.....

I never knew it was so easy all you have to do is platoon two bags of spit together and they equal an above average player. I wonder why any of these teams ever pay big bucks to good players seems foolish when you can just get two cheap bums and not miss a beat.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Oh so I guess 2011 doesn't count for MJ when he was second only to Geno in snaps on the DL for our 7th ranked defense. That's cool. MJ and NFL front office personnel probably view it a little different though.

Putting too much stock into sack totals is nothing new. Sure they look pretty, but they are not everything.
Yeah you're right. It would be nice to see an opposing QB get pressured in a playoff game. That didn't happen either... or is that Geno's fault?

If not... why don't you at least stop the run? That didn't happen either. It's not all MJ's fault... but he didn't exactly put it in "beast mode" against solid competition.

Those are the type of offensive tackles you're going to meet in the playoffs.

BTW MJ would be getting paid big money in the tag. So it's not like I'm saying don't pay the man. Just be a little patient.

So keep throwing out snide crap like MJ is JJ Watt or some household name outside of Bengaldom. He just isn't there yet.

Do I think someone else would throw money at MJ? Absolutely. They did for guys like Fanene and Rucker who you call bums as well.

Rucker was cut because of change of scheme. Not level of play. Fanene had an injury problem.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:23 PM
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I think people are seriously underestimating how much money MJ is going to get. 25 year old pass rushers coming off of 11.5 sack seasons don't come available often. I think he's going to get around 5 yrs/50 million. Maybe more.

I think MJ is a solid player, but I don't see him as a consistent 10 sack guy. Half his sacks came against backups. He had a couple in that last "game" against Baltimore. I see him as a 6 sack type of player, and if we pay him 50 million, it will be a huge mistake. That could be Geno or AJ's money.

We need to just franchise MJ and see if he can do it again. I have a feeling he won't.
If you think he is a 6 sack player, why would you franchise him? Pay him 11 million, even though you see him as a 6 sack type of player? Only if you think he has the potential to reach at least 12, do you franchise, and I think the Bengals believe he can. Most likely, we will resign Andre to a 4 year contract, and franchise Johnson.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:39 PM
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Oh so I guess 2011 doesn't count for MJ when he was second only to Geno in snaps on the DL for our 7th ranked defense. That's cool. MJ and NFL front office personnel probably view it a little different though.

Putting too much stock into sack totals is nothing new. Sure they look pretty, but they are not everything.
You could run any DE out there and lead the team in snaps.

Does that mean they should be paid like Jared Allen?

Rey led the team in snaps at LBer, lets pay him like one of the top LBers in the league.

What you produce with those snaps are what determines how much you get paid.

Production at that position is measured by Sacks, Pressures, Tkls etc.

So yes, they are everything in terms of a large payday.

MJ has had 1 year of big money production so reward him for that in the form of the 1 year Franchise Tag.

If he does it again great, talk long term deal.

Unless of course he is only asking for a reasonable deal then do the long term now.

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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I think people are seriously underestimating how much money MJ is going to get. 25 year old pass rushers coming off of 11.5 sack seasons don't come available often. I think he's going to get around 5 yrs/50 million. Maybe more.

I think MJ is a solid player, but I don't see him as a consistent 10 sack guy. Half his sacks came against backups. He had a couple in that last "game" against Baltimore. I see him as a 6 sack type of player, and if we pay him 50 million, it will be a huge mistake. That could be Geno or AJ's money.

We need to just franchise MJ and see if he can do it again. I have a feeling he won't.
I see him as an 8-9 sack guy. 6 is too little; when he's seen a ton of snaps, he's done better than 6, so I can't see him as a 6 sack guy.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:17 PM
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You could run any DE out there and lead the team in snaps.

Does that mean they should be paid like Jared Allen?

Rey led the team in snaps at LBer, lets pay him like one of the top LBers in the league.

What you produce with those snaps are what determines how much you get paid.

Production at that position is measured by Sacks, Pressures, Tkls etc.

So yes, they are everything in terms of a large payday.

MJ has had 1 year of big money production so reward him for that in the form of the 1 year Franchise Tag.

If he does it again great, talk long term deal.

Unless of course he is only asking for a reasonable deal then do the long term now.
He has gotten better every year. The arrow is pointing up. You don't wait around when one of your young guys is continuing to improve and let the price get higher and higher until you can't afford him. He has done everything you would want a third round pick with a lot of potential and question marks to do.

Our LBs were our weakness and Rey being a liability playing a bunch of snaps is not comparable to MJ playing the most snaps on the strength of our D.

Ask Fanene and Rucker how easy it is to play all 16 games in a year. You can't just run any DE out there and expect them to be an ironman like MJ.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:19 PM
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If you think he is a 6 sack player, why would you franchise him? Pay him 11 million, even though you see him as a 6 sack type of player? Only if you think he has the potential to reach at least 12, do you franchise, and I think the Bengals believe he can. Most likely, we will resign Andre to a 4 year contract, and franchise Johnson.
I think he's a 6 sack type of player. Franchise him and see. If he throws up 9 or more sacks with consistent pressure, pay the man.

If not, let somebody else be foolish. The tag is the best bet. Don't see how anyone could disagree.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:37 PM
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Yeah you're right. It would be nice to see an opposing QB get pressured in a playoff game. That didn't happen either... or is that Geno's fault?

If not... why don't you at least stop the run? That didn't happen either. It's not all MJ's fault... but he didn't exactly put it in "beast mode" against solid competition.

Those are the type of offensive tackles you're going to meet in the playoffs.

BTW MJ would be getting paid big money in the tag. So it's not like I'm saying don't pay the man. Just be a little patient.

So keep throwing out snide crap like MJ is JJ Watt or some household name outside of Bengaldom. He just isn't there yet.

Do I think someone else would throw money at MJ? Absolutely. They did for guys like Fanene and Rucker who you call bums as well.

Rucker was cut because of change of scheme. Not level of play. Fanene had an injury problem.
Not really breaking news that Houston has a damn good OL. Not sure why you threw Geno out there. But since you did, how many sacks did he have in that game? Is that MJ's fault? I don't think that loss can be put on the defense. We had every chance to win thanks to our D. Our offense let us down.

I never compared him to JJ Watt. JJ is a phenom just like Geno.

The tag is fully guaranteed. If you use that money as guaranteed money in a long term contract that could be somewhere around 1/3 of the guaranteed money he receives. Put it off another year and the guaranteed money he demands probably grows and that 9 mil or whatever it is we just paid him under the tag doesn't even matter. I don't think the tag is to motivate a guy and see if he can repeat. The tag is a last resort to keep a guy with one foot out the door.

They didn't even wait on cutting Rucker though. Sure they were changing schemes but he isn't exactly small or just strictly a pass rushing DE. He played DT for us at times. It wouldn't be that big of stretch to try him at 3-4 DE. He started all 16 games and stunk so they cut him.

Fanene's injury problem did not appear last year. It has been a career theme for him.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:50 PM
Kaptkurt Kaptkurt is offline
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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If you think he is a 6 sack player, why would you franchise him? Pay him 11 million, even though you see him as a 6 sack type of player? Only if you think he has the potential to reach at least 12, do you franchise, and I think the Bengals believe he can. Most likely, we will resign Andre to a 4 year contract, and franchise Johnson.
You franchise him because you're 55 mill under the cap and if he doesn't do it again. you'll need those bucks for Atkins, and AJ. I think this is the first year with a cap floor.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:54 PM
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NATI BENGALS NATI BENGALS is offline
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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I think he's a 6 sack type of player. Franchise him and see. If he throws up 9 or more sacks with consistent pressure, pay the man.

If not, let somebody else be foolish. The tag is the best bet. Don't see how anyone could disagree.
Let's see pay MJ 11 million for one year and play the risky game of who leaves the following year MJ, Atkins, or Dunlap, or use that 11 million for MJ's guaranteed money in his long term contract?

Pass on the opportunity to lock up one of your core players and give him the opportunity to increase his price tag even more, or lock up one of your key pieces long term and set your focus on the other key pieces with expiring contracts?

The franchise tag is a last resort. I could see using it on a guy who is a threat to get away. Or a guy who is up there in age and might not play at a high level throughout the length of a long term contract. But using it on a young guy entering his prime (Justin Smith) is asking for trouble.

How many 4-3 DEs around 26 year old are better than MJ?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:08 AM
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Shake n Blake Shake n Blake is offline
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by NATI BENGALS View Post
Let's see pay MJ 11 million for one year and play the risky game of who leaves the following year MJ, Atkins, or Dunlap, or use that 11 million for MJ's guaranteed money in his long term contract?

Pass on the opportunity to lock up one of your core players and give him the opportunity to increase his price tag even more, or lock up one of your key pieces long term and set your focus on the other key pieces with expiring contracts?

The franchise tag is a last resort. I could see using it on a guy who is a threat to get away. Or a guy who is up there in age and might not play at a high level throughout the length of a long term contract. But using it on a young guy entering his prime (Justin Smith) is asking for trouble.

How many 4-3 DEs around 26 year old are better than MJ?
Or we could pay MJ something around 5 years 50 million, then watch him become a flop next season. Would that be money well spent?

Our only players that I'm 100% sure deserve big bucks are Geno and AJ. Would you risk losing one of those guys because we gave MJ a mega deal?

If we franchise MJ and he has 10 more sacks, we still may be able to keep him. Geno is going to be signed before next year, if not, he'll be next to get the tag.

So then it would come down to MJ and Dunlap. Honestly, I think Dunlap will be a better value, but we'll see how it plays out.

I'd rather risk losing MJ next year than pay him a monster contract this year, when I'm not even sure he's worth it.

Like I said, if we franchise him, we still have a chance to work out a deal later. If we lock him up for 5 years/50 million, we're stuck with that.
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Last edited by Shake n Blake; 02-12-2013 at 12:12 AM.
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