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  #76  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:31 AM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Or we could pay MJ something around 5 years 50 million, then watch him become a flop next season. Would that be money well spent?

Our only players that I'm 100% sure deserve big bucks are Geno and AJ. Would you risk losing one of those guys because we gave MJ a mega deal?

If we franchise MJ and he has 10 more sacks, we still may be able to keep him. Geno is going to be signed before next year, if not, he'll be next to get the tag.

So then it would come down to MJ and Dunlap. Honestly, I think Dunlap will be a better value, but we'll see how it plays out.

I'd rather risk losing MJ next year than pay him a monster contract this year, when I'm not even sure he's worth it.

Like I said, if we franchise him, we still have a chance to work out a deal later. If we lock him up for 5 years/50 million, we're stuck with that.
Difference is.. that $50m isn't fully guaranteed. So if he flops, you simply CUT HIM. Like every single other NFL Franchise does that's not named The Cincinnati Bengals. Then only like.. $20-30m of it is guaranteed.. and you can make say about $18m of that $50 all in 2013 since they have so much cap space this year. That way, if he flops, you cut him and you only lose $2m since that's all that's left of the guaranteed money... but if he produces and does well, then you have a young, talented RDE with back-to-back 10+ sack seasons.. essentially at 4yr/$32m contract.

I feel like that's a MUCH better approach than franchise tagging him for almost $11m, then trying to sign him next season if he has a big year. Because then it'll cost MUCH more than 5yr/$50m, it'll be more like 5-6yr/$70-84m. Assuming someone else doesn't come in and simply offer him more.

Plus if you try to sign him to a huge contract in 2014, that's also the year Dunlap is a free agent, and Green/Dalton are available for extensions.. and you won't have $55m in cap space in 2014. (I still think that $55m will get larger once Allen/Anderson/Wharton/Connor/Cook get cut or hopefully get cut.)

We've all been Bengals fans for so long, we forget sometimes that contracts in the NFL aren't guaranteed. Players that under perform in the rest of the NFL get cut, or their contract restructured. They don't get 6yr/$33.75m, produce sack totals of 3.5/2.5/3.5/1.0/2.5/3.0....... or get to be so slow and old that you no longer have a position, but still make $5.5m... and get to live out their entire contract.
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Last edited by TheLeonardLeap; 02-12-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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  #77  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
Difference is.. that $50m isn't fully guaranteed. So if he flops, you simply CUT HIM. Like every single other NFL Franchise does that's not named The Cincinnati Bengals. Then only like.. $20-30m of it is guaranteed.. and you can make say about $18m of that $50 all in 2013 since they have so much cap space this year. That way, if he flops, you cut him and you only lose $2m since that's all that's left of the guaranteed money... but if he produces and does well, then you have a young, talented RDE with back-to-back 10+ sack seasons.. essentially at 4yr/$32m contract.

I feel like that's a MUCH better approach than franchise tagging him for almost $11m, then trying to sign him next season if he has a big year. Because then it'll cost MUCH more than 5yr/$50m, it'll be more like 5-6yr/$70-84m. Assuming someone else doesn't come in and simply offer him more.

Plus if you try to sign him to a huge contract in 2014, that's also the year Dunlap is a free agent, and Green/Dalton are available for extensions.. and you won't have $55m in cap space in 2014. (I still think that $55m will get larger once Allen/Anderson/Wharton/Connor/Cook get cut or hopefully get cut.)

We've all been Bengals fans for so long, we forget sometimes that contracts in the NFL aren't guaranteed. Players that under perform in the rest of the NFL get cut, or their contract restructured. They don't get 6yr/$33.75m, produce sack totals of 3.5/2.5/3.5/1.0/2.5/3.0....... or get to be so slow and old that you no longer have a position, but still make $5.5m... and get to live out their entire contract.
Front loading a deal like that would be a great idea. But we're talking about the Bengals.

They would just let him ride his contract out. Geathers signed a 6 year deal worth 33.75 million after his 06' (10.5 sacks) season.

He averaged 2.7 sacks in those 6 years, and was never at risk of being cut.
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  #78  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:02 AM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Front loading a deal like that would be a great idea. But we're talking about the Bengals.

They would just let him ride his contract out. Geathers signed a 6 year deal worth 33.75 million after his 06' (10.5 sacks) season.

He averaged 2.7 sacks in those 6 years, and was never at risk of being cut.
I'm aware, but we're talking about what we all would do, not what Mr Brown will do, I thought.. besides, though how unlikely it is to be truth, deep inside, I would like to think that Katie has been running things more and more each year. I'd like to think maybe she'd be different. Realize that contracts that aren't fully guaranteed are the greatest thing for Owners/GMs, and should be used to your advantage.

Suppose a small part of Geathers is also there was never really anybody pushing Geathers to be cut until 2012. Who did they have that was better? Fanene wasn't an every down player, Ruckers couldn't stay healthy... sadly he was their best DE for a couple years there.
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  #79  
Old 02-12-2013, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Front loading a deal like that would be a great idea. But we're talking about the Bengals.

They would just let him ride his contract out. Geathers signed a 6 year deal worth 33.75 million after his 06' (10.5 sacks) season.

He averaged 2.7 sacks in those 6 years, and was never at risk of being cut.
We cut Odom after 3 years of a 5 year deal. We didn't let one of the biggest free agent acquisitions we have had recently ride out his contract.

Geathers has been relatively durable. We didn't cut him because we didn't have a better option on the roster. The coaches love him a heck of a lot more than the fans.

Our front office is well aware of the players who will be reaching free agency in the coming years. I'm going to keep my hopes up that we do get creative in contract structures.

Back to back playoffs and we have the most money to spend. As much heat as our management takes you would expect a different situation than that. They have been doing pretty well imo.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Difference is.. that $50m isn't fully guaranteed. So if he flops, you simply CUT HIM. Like every single other NFL Franchise does that's not named The Cincinnati Bengals. Then only like.. $20-30m of it is guaranteed.. and you can make say about $18m of that $50 all in 2013 since they have so much cap space this year. That way, if he flops, you cut him and you only lose $2m since that's all that's left of the guaranteed money... but if he produces and does well, then you have a young, talented RDE with back-to-back 10+ sack seasons.. essentially at 4yr/$32m contract.

I feel like that's a MUCH better approach than franchise tagging him for almost $11m, then trying to sign him next season if he has a big year. Because then it'll cost MUCH more than 5yr/$50m, it'll be more like 5-6yr/$70-84m. Assuming someone else doesn't come in and simply offer him more.

Plus if you try to sign him to a huge contract in 2014, that's also the year Dunlap is a free agent, and Green/Dalton are available for extensions.. and you won't have $55m in cap space in 2014. (I still think that $55m will get larger once Allen/Anderson/Wharton/Connor/Cook get cut or hopefully get cut.)

We've all been Bengals fans for so long, we forget sometimes that contracts in the NFL aren't guaranteed. Players that under perform in the rest of the NFL get cut, or their contract restructured. They don't get 6yr/$33.75m, produce sack totals of 3.5/2.5/3.5/1.0/2.5/3.0....... or get to be so slow and old that you no longer have a position, but still make $5.5m... and get to live out their entire contract.
So if you sign him for this big deal and he flops you think MB would be OK with paying him 18 mil for the 1 year?

WOW.

What team does that for a guy like MJ?

What if MJs agent says "I want a 25mil fully guaranteed for skill and injury and 15mil signing bonus"?

That pretty much shoots your idea into the ground.

The signing bonus alone makes the cap hit at least 3 mil each year if you cut him.

Remember these guys have to agree to the deal.

If he wants money like that you have to tag him if, for nothing else, to keep him for another year.

If he has another monster season the Bengals probably won't be able to afford he and Geno on the same line anyways but at least you get him for another year with the Franchise Tag.

I don't know what MJ is asking for but its probably going to be more than what the Bengals are going to want to pay.

Last edited by gardner30; 02-12-2013 at 02:40 AM.
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  #81  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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So if you sign him for this big deal and he flops you think MB would be OK with paying him 18 mil for the 1 year?

WOW.

What team does that for a guy like MJ?

What if MJs agent says "I want a 25mil fully guaranteed for skill and injury and 15mil signing bonus"?

That pretty much shoots your idea into the ground.

The signing bonus alone makes the cap hit at least 3 mil each year if you cut him.

Remember these guys have to agree to the deal.

If he wants money like that you have to tag him if, for nothing else, to keep him for another year.

If he has another monster season the Bengals probably won't be able to afford he and Geno on the same line anyways but at least you get him for another year with the Franchise Tag.

I don't know what MJ is asking for but its probably going to be more than what the Bengals are going to want to pay.
How about we just keep the strength of our team together and keep building. We have 50+ million in cap space. Instead of low balling our home grown talent or putting ourselves in a more difficult position by pushing his contract back another year we can just take care of it while we have more money to spend than anybody and one of the most talented young DEs in the league who says he wants to be here.
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  #82  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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How about we just keep the strength of our team together and keep building. We have 50+ million in cap space. Instead of low balling our home grown talent or putting ourselves in a more difficult position by pushing his contract back another year we can just take care of it while we have more money to spend than anybody and one of the most talented young DEs in the league who says he wants to be here.
Yeah I think paying him whatever his agent wants is the way to go.

The guy has 23 career sacks going into his 5th year.

Unless he is a late bloomer, and he might be, he is what he is and that's a good player reaping the benefits of an ALL-PRO DT allowing him to be single blocked.
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  #83  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:26 AM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Yeah you're right. It would be nice to see an opposing QB get pressured in a playoff game. That didn't happen either... or is that Geno's fault?

If not... why don't you at least stop the run? That didn't happen either. It's not all MJ's fault... but he didn't exactly put it in "beast mode" against solid competition.

Those are the type of offensive tackles you're going to meet in the playoffs.

BTW MJ would be getting paid big money in the tag. So it's not like I'm saying don't pay the man. Just be a little patient.

So keep throwing out snide crap like MJ is JJ Watt or some household name outside of Bengaldom. He just isn't there yet.

Do I think someone else would throw money at MJ? Absolutely. They did for guys like Fanene and Rucker who you call bums as well.

Rucker was cut because of change of scheme. Not level of play. Fanene had an injury problem.
I did not see anything in his post where he made MJ out to be Watt. The Texans made sure our dline was not going to get to Schaub by not letting him drop more than three steps. They took advantage of a glaring weakness and that was at LB. They knew neither Rey or Lawson could cover their TEs or backs. They beat us underneath.
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  #84  
Old 02-12-2013, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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WOWZERS!!!!

So a guy out of the league last year and a guy who finally got his chance to start and was then cut with their total of 24.5 sacks combined over their 14 total years in the league will make up for the loss of one of the best young DEs in the game. OK.....

I never knew it was so easy all you have to do is platoon two bags of spit together and they equal an above average player. I wonder why any of these teams ever pay big bucks to good players seems foolish when you can just get two cheap bums and not miss a beat.

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I did not see anything in his post where he made MJ out to be Watt. The Texans made sure our dline was not going to get to Schaub by not letting him drop more than three steps. They took advantage of a glaring weakness and that was at LB. They knew neither Rey or Lawson could cover their TEs or backs. They beat us underneath.
No JJ Watt specifically. Who is he talking about? That's who you'd consider one of the best young DEs in the league.

I'm with Shake. He could be a normal 6 sack DE. It's just not that clear... yet.

I know sacks aren't everything... but if he only had 4-5 this wouldn't be a discussion.

I'm also pretty sure his sack total this year would come out in contract negotiation.

I mentioned Geno because some say MJ is better because of him.

Is he worse if Geno is not dominating?
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  #85  
Old 02-12-2013, 05:34 AM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Yeah I think paying him whatever his agent wants is the way to go.

The guy has 23 career sacks going into his 5th year.

Unless he is a late bloomer, and he might be, he is what he is and that's a good player reaping the benefits of an ALL-PRO DT allowing him to be single blocked.
What he is, is a DE going into only his 3rd season of being a full time DE. He was a DE/OLB in his first year, and was told in the offseason/preseason of his second year that he was being moved to SAM full time (injuries at the DE position got him to play DE for most of 2010, but the damage was done, he kept thin to play SAM so he could cover.)

It wasn't until 2011 that talks of him being an OLB were completely stopped by Marvin Lewis and he responded in his only two seasons of being a full time DE, with a total of 17.5 sacks. 11.5 coming in a season where he finally had the luxery of knowing 100% that he was going to be a DE, so he could bulk up to 270lbs instead of being a 6'7 250lb guy.

Don't confuse Atkin's dominance with MJ finally becoming a full time DE. I bet you most fans don't even remember he was a hybrid in 2009 because he was too light, and then in 2010, Marvin Lewis said he was going to become the SAM so he could replace Maualuga when he would move to MLB. It's not fair to expect a 6'7 250lb man who's been told he'll play SAM and have to cover, to step into DE and immediately dominate.
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Bengals FA: A period where fans want them to keep their own, unless the team doesn't manage to, in which case they were either overrated or overpaid. Or they weren't a team player. Or I think they said they were a Steelers fan once. I heard they preferred Gold Star over Skyline anyway. Oh well, they're easily replaceable by *insert unproven backup player or rookie name here*.

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  #86  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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What he is, is a DE going into only his 3rd season of being a full time DE. He was a DE/OLB in his first year, and was told in the offseason/preseason of his second year that he was being moved to SAM full time (injuries at the DE position got him to play DE for most of 2010, but the damage was done, he kept thin to play SAM so he could cover.)

It wasn't until 2011 that talks of him being an OLB were completely stopped by Marvin Lewis and he responded in his only two seasons of being a full time DE, with a total of 17.5 sacks. 11.5 coming in a season where he finally had the luxery of knowing 100% that he was going to be a DE, so he could bulk up to 270lbs instead of being a 6'7 250lb guy.

Don't confuse Atkin's dominance with MJ finally becoming a full time DE. I bet you most fans don't even remember he was a hybrid in 2009 because he was too light, and then in 2010, Marvin Lewis said he was going to become the SAM so he could replace Maualuga when he would move to MLB. It's not fair to expect a 6'7 250lb man who's been told he'll play SAM and have to cover, to step into DE and immediately dominate.
Normally, if a guy can rush the passer and is going to be a consistent pass rush force he will have shown that in his first couple years.

Lots of guys start out as nickel rushers then FORCE the coaching staff to play them full time because of their productivity.

MJ broke out with good pass rush numbers his 4th year, after another part of the Dline had established itself as dominate (Geno).

I mean, the best sack season MJ had in college was 9.

He isn't worth big money until he proves that 9-12 sacks is what the team will get from him if he is healthy.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

Is he worth 9-10 million + per year.....HECK NO
Is he worthy of a 4 year 28-30 mil contract.........FO SHO
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Difference is.. that $50m isn't fully guaranteed. So if he flops, you simply CUT HIM. Like every single other NFL Franchise does that's not named The Cincinnati Bengals. Then only like.. $20-30m of it is guaranteed.. and you can make say about $18m of that $50 all in 2013 since they have so much cap space this year. That way, if he flops, you cut him and you only lose $2m since that's all that's left of the guaranteed money... but if he produces and does well, then you have a young, talented RDE with back-to-back 10+ sack seasons.. essentially at 4yr/$32m contract.
This would be great.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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No JJ Watt specifically. Who is he talking about? That's who you'd consider one of the best young DEs in the league.

I'm with Shake. He could be a normal 6 sack DE. It's just not that clear... yet.

I know sacks aren't everything... but if he only had 4-5 this wouldn't be a discussion.

I'm also pretty sure his sack total this year would come out in contract negotiation.

I mentioned Geno because some say MJ is better because of him.

Is he worse if Geno is not dominating?
JJ is the only DE younger than MJ who had more sacks than him last year. Hence my one of the best young DEs in the league thoughts. I didn't say the best. That is obviously JJ. But failing to realize MJ is one of the better young DEs around would lead to your line of thought about MJ not being very important to our future.

Yes he is worse if Geno is not dominating. And Geno is worse if MJ and Dunlap are not generating great pressure numbers. That is why it is the greatest team sport.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:34 PM
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Is he worth 9-10 million + per year.....HECK NO
Is he worthy of a 4 year 28-30 mil contract.........FO SHO
There is a reason the franchise tag number for DEs is second only to QBs.

The position is extremely important. And 4-3 teams value them more than any other position on D.

Doesn't matter how good your CBs are, if the QB has all day to find an open WR its impossible to cover a guy that long.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:38 PM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by Shake n Blake View Post
Front loading a deal like that would be a great idea. But we're talking about the Bengals.

They would just let him ride his contract out. Geathers signed a 6 year deal worth 33.75 million after his 06' (10.5 sacks) season.

He averaged 2.7 sacks in those 6 years, and was never at risk of being cut.
Because he is respected by guys like Mike Zimmer way more than he is by these boards.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

For the umpteenth time.This was his FIRST year playing at a true position and weight.
He has earned a nice pay raise and I for one hope that it is with Cincy.
He has done everything right and nothing wrong while being a Bengal.
He is a team player,likes his coaches and the city. The man should remain a Bengal and he is worth every penny that he has earned.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:54 PM
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For the umpteenth time.This was his FIRST year playing at a true position and weight.
He has earned a nice pay raise and I for one hope that it is with Cincy.
He has done everything right and nothing wrong while being a Bengal.
He is a team player,likes his coaches and the city. The man should remain a Bengal and he is worth every penny that he has earned.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

You guys that don't want him back will indeed freak out when the defense's production drops next year when he's gone...
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:40 PM
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You guys that don't want him back will indeed freak out when the defense's production drops next year when he's gone...
Who said they didn't want him back?
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:52 AM
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bengals Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Who said they didn't want him back?
Everyone who says let him go because he's not worth the money, and then sign Gilberry to replace him as starter. If that ever happened, I would love to see the kind of threads that show up during/after that season, hah. Also, the people who say "three or four year deal" or "4yr/$28-30m" are essentially saying they don't want him back... because that's ridiculously lowballing compared to the market for a 26 year old RDE coming off of an 11.5 sack season.

They don't say the actual words they don't want him back, but they mean just about the same thing.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BengalsRocker View Post
Who said they didn't want him back?
Many people.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

I want him back just at a fair price.

If his contract demands are out of line then you almost have to let him go.

Only two guys on this team will get paid All-Pro salaries, the two All-Pros Geno and AJ.

If you give All-Pro contracts to good but not great players like MJ your not going to field a championship caliber team.

You would have to do great in EVERY single draft.

That just isn't a realistic expectation for any team.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Is MJ worth the money?

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Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap View Post
Everyone who says let him go because he's not worth the money, and then sign Gilberry to replace him as starter. If that ever happened, I would love to see the kind of threads that show up during/after that season, hah. Also, the people who say "three or four year deal" or "4yr/$28-30m" are essentially saying they don't want him back... because that's ridiculously lowballing compared to the market for a 26 year old RDE coming off of an 11.5 sack season.

They don't say the actual words they don't want him back, but they mean just about the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momadance02 View Post
Many people.
Okay. Just to clarify that I want MJ back. There are reasons to be somewhat reluctant to give him a long deal at a high price. Like you've stated LeonardLeap that it depends on how it's worked.

If he wants near top tier money now... you tag him and determine if he is top tier.

Is he top tier from a one season performance? It's a matter of opinion at this point.

Just because I'd like to see if he can come close to that level of play next season... doesn't mean I don't want him here. He could do it. He may be just middle of the pack too.
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