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  #51  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

I didn't read the entire thread, but I'm just gonna say QB is so high on the totem pole for a reason. It's the most important position on the field.
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
You're not leaving a whole lot to work with either since all you're doing is beating around the bush. I get it, you're disappointed with him because...yeah, exactly.
I didn't even say I was disappointed in Dalton. I'm disappointed in people acting like I'm insane for expecting him to NOT be an integral part of setting a new record for stank in the playoffs. Geeeeeeeeez!
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:56 PM
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I didn't even say I was disappointed in Dalton. I'm disappointed in people acting like I'm insane for expecting him to NOT be an integral part of setting a new record for stank in the playoffs. Geeeeeeeeez!
Perhaps I simply misinterpreted your meaning when you posted 'stop making excuses'.
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  #54  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by BigPapaKain View Post
Very few QB's could do what he did with what he had, and even fewer could do more.
Define "very few". Curious, where would you rank Dalton among his peers? Very few to me sounds like you're hold him easily in the top 10, and probably higher.

Fwiw, I have him right about in the middle. No higher than 12, no lower than 18. These are not in total order, but off the top of my head:

Tier 1 (4)

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees

Tier 2 (3)

The Rapist
Eli
Matt Ryan

Tier 3 (15)

RG3
Tony Romo
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Russell Wilson
Colin Kapernick
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers
Matt Schaub
Sam Bradford
Michael Vick
Andy Dalton
Josh Freeman
Alex Smith

Tier 4 (4)

Carson Palmer
Christian Ponder
Ryan Tannenhill
Matt Cassell

Tier 5
(???)

Add in whatever scrubs you can think of. Weeden, Sanchez, Locker, etc...

So, I would hope we would all agree that tiers 1's and 2 are above Dalton at this stage in their respective careers, right? Well, that's seven right there. Now look long and hard at that tier 3 group, which I consider to be middle of the road. Perhaps slightly above average at times, perhaps slightly below average, and everything in between. Basically, not bad, but not yet great. These could really be two tiers in there, but it's tough to differentiate some of them.

It's a total cluster**** of QB's in there. There's some that are clearly better than Dalton, but it's too hard to break up into clear cut groups. But wouldn't you agree that in that 15 he's probably in the bottom half, or close to it? Because that's 7 or 8 more QB's right there.

I think you really need to rethink or reword your choice of "very few".

Last edited by Toast Jones; 02-12-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Perhaps I simply misinterpreted your meaning when you posted 'stop making excuses'.
Ha, well that WAS meant to stir the proverbial pot now that I think about it.
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  #56  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:45 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by Toast Jones View Post
Define "very few". Curious, where would you rank Dalton among his peers? Very few to me sounds like you're hold him easily in the top 10, and probably higher.

Fwiw, I have him right about in the middle. No higher than 12, no lower than 18. These are not in total order, but off the top of my head:

Tier 1 (4)

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees

Tier 2 (3)

The Rapist
Eli
Matt Ryan

Tier 3 (15)

RG3
Tony Romo
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Russell Wilson
Colin Kapernick
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers
Matt Schaub
Sam Bradford
Michael Vick
Andy Dalton
Josh Freeman
Alex Smith

Tier 4 (4)

Carson Palmer
Christian Ponder
Ryan Tannenhill
Matt Cassell

Tier 5
(???)

Add in whatever scrubs you can think of. Weeden, Sanchez, Locker, etc...

So, I would hope we would all agree that tiers 1's and 2 are above Dalton at this stage in their respective careers, right? Well, that's seven right there. Now look long and hard at that tier 3 group, which I consider to be middle of the road. Perhaps slightly above average at times, perhaps slightly below average, and everything in between. Basically, not bad, but not yet great. These could really be two tiers in there, but it's tough to differentiate some of them.

It's a total cluster**** of QB's in there. There's some that are clearly better than Dalton, but it's too hard to break up into clear cut groups. But wouldn't you agree that in that 15 he's probably in the bottom half, or close to it? Because that's 7 or 8 more QB's right there.

I think you really need to rethink or reword your choice of "very few".
Wow, seeing every QB in the NFL on a list really puts things into perspective. You look at those names and you just go 'Wow, they have some complete teams around them', and it makes you a bit jealous that the Bengals have the lethargic offense of a division 2 high school team in comparison to some of them.

Statistically, he's not a top tier QB, obviously. Nor do I think he ever would be - he's not the kind of QB that can elevate a team, but I still think there aren't many QB's who could do what he's done in Cincinnati.
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  #57  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

You can't judge Andy too harshly with this OLine and such young WRs. Give them all time.
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  #58  
Old 02-13-2013, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by CornerBlitz View Post
If you do not have an elite QB, you need an elite defense. Most teams with elite defenses still come up short because the QB is that critical. People such as myself are critical of Dalton because we do not see the upside, i.e. that he will be an elite QB.

Again if you do not have an elite QB then you need an elite defense. Look at the last few QBs that have won the SB......they were all playing at an elite level to finish the season.

Flacco
Manning
Rodgers
P.Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Brees

An elite QB is imperative if you want to sustain a high level of success consistently.
Point is dalton isnt the only one out there making mistakes.... Gresham and Green had horrible drive/game killing drops this season.
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  #59  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by havean View Post
Then i guess the chargers did not see the upside of Drew Brees? I have seen plenty of upside on Dalton. It is only his second year. Flacco took 4 years. Dalton just has to control his happy feet.
I think there is some revisionist history going on with Brees. Didn't he have a shoulder injury that many thought was a career ender in his last game at SD? Wasn't that more the catalyst for them not wanting to invest rather than his play?

And yes, QB is the most important positon in all of sports. Just like a starting pitcher in baseball, the QB's play has a huge bearing on the result of the game. It's a team sport, but not all positions are created equal.
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  #60  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by XenoMorph View Post
Point is dalton isnt the only one out there making mistakes.... Gresham and Green had horrible drive/game killing drops this season.

Look we understand Dalton doesn't have a perfect team, but I think a top 5 defense and one of the best WR in the game should be enough to put up better stats in the 2 biggest games of his career. Sorry for expecting more than a 50 QB rating, and missing key throws when players like Green are running wide open.......

I know those throws aren't Dalton's fault because uhm uhm a fan yelled and distracted him. Yea thats it !!

Instead of always trying to find an excuse for the way he played why don't we just acknowledge that he played like complete and utter crap and that he needs to improve in every facet of the game in order to ever be considered a top 10 QB let alone elite.
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  #61  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

It is my lowly opinion that Dalton is an average QB. I personally do not think he has what it takes to take us to the next level. His talent is average at best. That is the major difference between he and Flacco. Also maybe our talent surrounding him would look better if we had a better qb directing the offense.
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  #62  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:54 AM
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bengals Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by Shady View Post
You can't judge Andy too harshly with this OLine and such young WRs. Give them all time.
The time I am willing to give all of them is this 2013 season.A superbowl win this season is all I want.Nothing else.Time is an issue if you are waiting on a qb to get better.But sometimes you can see ahead of TIME if a guy has it or not.I think Andy can be the man this year, but its up to him and his team.All of us want him to step up, its what we expect.I for one realize he is young and had only two years in the nfl.But I am very impatience, and I hate the cry,wait til next year.Next year is here, put more weapons around him and lets go.The way he finished the season is what has all of us questioning him.Lets all hope he becomes the man THIS YEAR.
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  #63  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by havean View Post
I am amazed when i see so many threads saying Dalton is not the guy he ***** ect. Time to put those people in there place.
Whoa there tiger, How is that high horse place putting going for you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopbengals View Post
He's talking about Andy, how could you not know that? Andy has no legitimate weapons outside of AJ. Don't give me the Gresham crap, he needs to step it up.
Since you reference Flacco earlier and then posted this, Dalton's options are alot better than Flacco's were Mark Clayton, 34 yr old Derrick Mason.
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  #64  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nately120 View Post
Ok, you really seem intent on attributing every ridiculous "all or nothing" expectation and belief to me so I'll just stop even attempting to discuss this with you.
All of us realize that for our team to do ANYTHING and win this division, our quarterback must ball-out.There will be games we play this season and any season, where your qb has to make a big play to win the game.It will come down to that at times and for him to get it done,will probably get us a division winning season.So I am looking for him to be that guy.I truly believe all the pressure is on the coaches and Dalton to lead this team by playing lights out.All of us want the same thing, a winner this year.I do believe Dalton can be that guy.We expect that from him and I feel he wants to be that guy.Putting better weapons around him is probably the key.
Also, I wanted to ask all of you on here that post,If Dalton gets hurt this year, Who would you want to step in??Should we consider drafting someone and who would it be.I have not researched any college QB's, or recently released NFL qbs.I would like to see what all of you think.And do we now have the right mix of coaches to move forward???I SO HOPE SO.
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  #65  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast Jones View Post
Define "very few". Curious, where would you rank Dalton among his peers? Very few to me sounds like you're hold him easily in the top 10, and probably higher.

Fwiw, I have him right about in the middle. No higher than 12, no lower than 18. These are not in total order, but off the top of my head:

Tier 1 (4)

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees

Tier 2 (3)

The Rapist
Eli
Matt Ryan

Tier 3 (15)

RG3
Tony Romo
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Russell Wilson
Colin Kapernick
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers
Matt Schaub
Sam Bradford
Michael Vick
Andy Dalton
Josh Freeman
Alex Smith

Tier 4 (4)

Carson Palmer
Christian Ponder
Ryan Tannenhill
Matt Cassell

Tier 5 (???)

Add in whatever scrubs you can think of. Weeden, Sanchez, Locker, etc...

So, I would hope we would all agree that tiers 1's and 2 are above Dalton at this stage in their respective careers, right? Well, that's seven right there. Now look long and hard at that tier 3 group, which I consider to be middle of the road. Perhaps slightly above average at times, perhaps slightly below average, and everything in between. Basically, not bad, but not yet great. These could really be two tiers in there, but it's tough to differentiate some of them.

It's a total cluster**** of QB's in there. There's some that are clearly better than Dalton, but it's too hard to break up into clear cut groups. But wouldn't you agree that in that 15 he's probably in the bottom half, or close to it? Because that's 7 or 8 more QB's right there.

I think you really need to rethink or reword your choice of "very few".
I think Tier 3 needs broken out more in that list.

I put these guys all above Dalton:

(9)
RG3
Tony Romo
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Russell Wilson
Colin Kapernick
Jay Cutler
Matt Schaub

So that's 16 guys better than him.

Then, I put him about equal with Bradford, Smith, and Freeman.

So he's somewhere in the 17-20 range. Nothing wrong with that for a 2nd year guy without a #2 WR and a poor running game.
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  #66  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by CornerBlitz View Post
Look we understand Dalton doesn't have a perfect team, but I think a top 5 defense and one of the best WR in the game should be enough to put up better stats in the 2 biggest games of his career. Sorry for expecting more than a 50 QB rating, and missing key throws when players like Green are running wide open.......

I know those throws aren't Dalton's fault because uhm uhm a fan yelled and distracted him. Yea thats it !!

Instead of always trying to find an excuse for the way he played why don't we just acknowledge that he played like complete and utter crap and that he needs to improve in every facet of the game in order to ever be considered a top 10 QB let alone elite.
Well year 1 he was a rookie...

Year 2 he improved on Year 1...

We werent great in pass protection.

Dalton missed some open throws yes.. but so has every QB you list as Elite.

Daltons stats would be much improved if Green and Gresham catch those 1st downs and TD's...

Its a ****ing Team game. Even Peyton manning cant make the WR Catch the ball.

the elite QB's in the league have playmakers that make some **** happen that should never have been completed. Thats on the WR making a good play on a bad ball by the QB.
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  #67  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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Originally Posted by Stealth3020 View Post
It is my lowly opinion that Dalton is an average QB. I personally do not think he has what it takes to take us to the next level. His talent is average at best. That is the major difference between he and Flacco. Also maybe our talent surrounding him would look better if we had a better qb directing the offense.
Why didnt you warn people about Sanchez after year 2 or that ben was gonna rape those chicks sense you seem able to read the future.

A QB can only be as good as the 10 other guys on the field.

unless the QB is just running the ball every play even then he needs some blocking.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:23 PM
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Well year 1 he was a rookie...

Year 2 he improved on Year 1...

We werent great in pass protection.

Dalton missed some open throws yes.. but so has every QB you list as Elite.

Daltons stats would be much improved if Green and Gresham catch those 1st downs and TD's...

Its a ****ing Team game. Even Peyton manning cant make the WR Catch the ball.

the elite QB's in the league have playmakers that make some **** happen that should never have been completed. Thats on the WR making a good play on a bad ball by the QB.
Our pass protection got much worse from Year 1 to Year 2. I would argue that we downgraded at WR 2 also.
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  #69  
Old 02-13-2013, 01:05 PM
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I think there is some revisionist history going on with Brees. Didn't he have a shoulder injury that many thought was a career ender in his last game at SD? Wasn't that more the catalyst for them not wanting to invest rather than his play?

And yes, QB is the most important positon in all of sports. Just like a starting pitcher in baseball, the QB's play has a huge bearing on the result of the game. It's a team sport, but not all positions are created equal.
You are correct on Brees' shoulder injury. But don't ignore that his stats were pretty bad as well.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

Me Like Um Totem

I haven't seen a totem pole in awhile. As a kid, a park use to have one....Indian Lake use to have one or two, and sell those toy drums as well.

QB is pretty high up the old totem, considering how many games come down to 2 minute warning drives. Paul Brown put Otto Graham at the top of his totem, probably above Jimmy Brown. As Bengals coach, PB still raved about Otto Graham. He must have been great and I'm sorry I didn't see him play. I hear he was like Johnny Unitas, if not better. PB raved about his timing, saying he could walk into practice and make it all come together. Otto had perfect timing on practices, games, passes, runs, play calls and everything football per PB. The old timers like my late dad said Otto put the ball right in the recievers hands, no reach, no stretch, nice easy catches, hitting them in full stride. If needed he could take off and run and was a tough hard nosed player.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:59 PM
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bengals Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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One day a lot of people are going to look back and think "Why did I defend Andy Dalton so much? He wasn't that good."

Now, I don't think he's bad. He's just kinda "meh" or "blah". Pick your word. If you wanna have Chad Pennington as your QB for the next 10 years then more power to you. He's not going anywhere (and he shouldn't...yet) so it is what is. You can win without having a great QB. I just hope we get him some more talent, because a player of his caliber needs weapons to take that next step.

PS I think the OP meant pedestal, not totem pole. At least I think. Either way, it made me laugh.
Thank you.
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  #72  
Old 02-15-2013, 03:20 PM
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Flacco didn't win ****. The Ravens won playoff games, Flacco had 1 touchdown in 5 games. How would he have won anything?
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:27 PM
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Look we understand Dalton doesn't have a perfect team, but I think a top 5 defense and one of the best WR in the game should be enough to put up better stats in the 2 biggest games of his career. Sorry for expecting more than a 50 QB rating, and missing key throws when players like Green are running wide open.......

I know those throws aren't Dalton's fault because uhm uhm a fan yelled and distracted him. Yea thats it !!

Instead of always trying to find an excuse for the way he played why don't we just acknowledge that he played like complete and utter crap and that he needs to improve in every facet of the game in order to ever be considered a top 10 QB let alone elite.
Nay on this... Yes Green is beast and he had a awesome year but when you have no solid number 2 You will fail. More stare downs less reads ect
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: People put the Qb to high on the Totem pole

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I think there is some revisionist history going on with Brees. Didn't he have a shoulder injury that many thought was a career ender in his last game at SD? Wasn't that more the catalyst for them not wanting to invest rather than his play?
Here's the exact history of what happened with Brees in SD:

2001- Chargers feared taking a QB with the 1st overall pick (Mike Vick) because they were fresh off the Ryan Leaf disaster. So they traded back and selected L.T., then they drafted Brees in round 2. Brees sat on the bench for his rookie season and learned.

2002- Brees had a decent 1st season as starter.

2003- Brees regressed, throwing only 11 scores to 15 picks.

2004- Chargers selected Eli Manning (traded for Philip Rivers) in the 1st round.

Once the Chargers selected Philip Rivers, that was essentially the end for Drew Brees. The injury was just a convenient excuse to move on and start Rivers. Do you really think the Chargers would've let Brees walk if Rivers weren't in the picture?

The Brees situation shows that maybe sometimes you should be patient with a young QB. Brees didn't blow up until his 4th season. By then, the Chargers had taken a 1st round QB. They were really in a pickle until Brees hurt his shoulder.
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