Will You Freak Out If MJ or Andre Walks?

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

I'm not saying I don't think we should pay him fair market value, we should, and that value will be in line with what works for us long term I think. Like I said, Atkins is the guy who command the mega deal. The market for MJ will be much softer and the Bengals will be able to keep him. MJ is solid but he is simply not regarded as highly as Peppers and Williams regardless of similar sack totals or not.

Like how Odom commanded a small deal from the Bengals as he was working on a Titans d-line loaded with stars, break out season in the final year...

Yea, I can't remember exactly but Odom's deal couldn't have been that huge or he never would have been a Bengals FA pick up lol.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Yea, I can't remember exactly but Odom's deal couldn't have been that huge or he never would have been a Bengals FA pick up lol.

5yr/$29.5m with $11.5m guaranteed in 2008 after 4 seasons of 2 sacks, 2 sack, 0.5 sacks, 8 sacks. So 4 years, 12.5 total sacks.

[momadance02]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

I think the rest of the league will recognize Geno as the true star of our DLine and will shy away from offering MJ really big money. I think the Bengals have that working in their favor. Geno is the guy who will command the mega bucks.

I think you're dead wrong. They'll see MJ as an elite DE in the making and pay him accordingly. We have nothing working in our favor.


If they don't get these deals done ill be severely disappointed.

[momadance02]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

There's no way he accepts less than a 6 year deal. Jonathan Fanene got a 3 year deal as a 30 year old part-time player with 13.5 career sacks... regardless of what you think he'll be paid, the fact is, young productive 26 year old NFL players don't accept 3-4 year deals in FA. If you can find like half a dozen legitimately talented, productive, HEALTHY starters not in legal trouble who sign a 3 year deal their first time in FA, I would love to see that list.

I just don't understand how there's people on this site who think Mohamed Sanu is "a better, faster version of Anquan Boldin" while he has 15 career catches for 154 yards in 9 games... there's people who think Orson Charles is better than Gresham, and Gresham should be cut so he can start while he has 8 catches for 101 yards in his 16 game career.... heck, I know there's at least one person who thinks Chase Coffman is a great NFL TE and will be amazing once Tony Gonzales retires..... so why is it that there's so little love on this site for Michael Johnson who's improved every single year, is a three down starter, plays more snaps than anyone else on the defensive line, and just came off an 11.5 sack season which is the highest for a Bengals DE in who knows how many decades.

Well said!

[momadance02]

Originally Posted by gardner30

I'm not saying they are scrubs.

I'm saying they aren't on the same level as Geno and shouldn't be paid on that level.

I would venture to say that Geno has flushed more sacks to the DEs than the DEs have to Geno.

I seem to remember most of Genos sacks came by him blowing by his man straight to the QB.

QB didn't have time to scramble.

I don't remember Geno getting too many "Gimmee" sacks, I think he earned most of them.

Cool, then we could just put anyone next to Geno and they'd tear up the opposing offensive line, right?


I think it's crazy how some of you are trying to justify not giving MJ a big contract. You don't just let a player like him walk.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by momadance02

Cool, then we could just put anyone next to Geno and they'd tear up the opposing offensive line, right?


I think it's crazy how some of you are trying to justify not giving MJ a big contract. You don't just let a player like him walk.

Rucker, Fanene and Gilberry had pretty nice seasons rotating next to Geno.

I'm guessing your not far from the truth here.

MJ is a good player but he is also very replaceable.

The Bengals won't overpay him, just like they wouldn't overpay to keep J Joe.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Rucker, Fanene and Gilberry had pretty nice seasons rotating next to Geno.

I'm guessing your not far from the truth here.

MJ is a good player but he is also very replaceable.

The Bengals won't overpay him, just like they wouldn't overpay to keep J Joe.

They had 4-6.5 sack seasons as part time players, mostly on passing downs. MJ got 11.5 as an every down RDE, meaning he can't take a break, and then just blast out energy for a play, and then come back off the field.. he has to be there every single down, stopping running plays, and then rushing the passer. He plays more snaps than Geno or anyone else on that line.

That comment about JJo is downright ridiculous... how is $9.75m a year for a 27 year old Top 10 CB overpaying? Brandon Carr makes $10m a year, Cortland Finnegan makes $10m a year, Brandon Flowers makes $8.2m a year, Antonio Cromartie makes $8m a year, Leon Hall makes $8.5m a year Dunta Robinson makes $9.5m a year, DeAngelo Hall makes $9.1m a year, Chris Gamble makes $8.8m a year...... $9.75m a year for a Top 10 CB who's still 3 seasons away from turning 30 is not overpaying at all. Ridiculous.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

They had 4-6.5 sack seasons as part time players, mostly on passing downs. MJ got 11.5 as an every down RDE, meaning he can't take a break, and then just blast out energy for a play, and then come back off the field.. he has to be there every single down, stopping running plays, and then rushing the passer. He plays more snaps than Geno or anyone else on that line.

That comment about JJo is downright ridiculous... how is $9.75m a year for a 27 year old Top 10 CB overpaying? Brandon Carr makes $10m a year, Cortland Finnegan makes $10m a year, Brandon Flowers makes $8.2m a year, Antonio Cromartie makes $8m a year, Leon Hall makes $8.5m a year Dunta Robinson makes $9.5m a year, DeAngelo Hall makes $9.1m a year, Chris Gamble makes $8.8m a year...... $9.75m a year for a Top 10 CB who's still 3 seasons away from turning 30 is not overpaying at all. Ridiculous.

MJ got 11.5 sacks 1 year. 1. The rest were numbers like Rucker, Fanene and Gilberry only MJ was playing way more than them.

Let me re-phrase that.

I don't think the Bengals are going to pay more money than another team for MJ to come back here, just like they did with J Joe.

They offered the same money as the Texans, not more.

J Joe chose to go where the weather is warm and the winter practices are indoors.

I don't think the Bengals are going to go a few million over the next teams contract to bring him back.

Anyway, I'm done arguing about it.

It was a good debate and we shall find out how it goes soon enough.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

That comment about JJo is downright ridiculous... how is $9.75m a year for a 27 year old Top 10 CB overpaying? Brandon Carr makes $10m a year, Cortland Finnegan makes $10m a year, Brandon Flowers makes $8.2m a year, Antonio Cromartie makes $8m a year, Leon Hall makes $8.5m a year Dunta Robinson makes $9.5m a year, DeAngelo Hall makes $9.1m a year, Chris Gamble makes $8.8m a year...... $9.75m a year for a Top 10 CB who's still 3 seasons away from turning 30 is not overpaying at all. Ridiculous.

Its considered Overpaying because of his injurey history... there was real reason for concern there... but there is no reason to over pay for talent.. because we you do you sacrafice talent somewhere else. Players want to break the bank because an agent whispers in their ear saying you could make more money (so they get a bigger cut)

Offering a 42 mil contract to jJoe for what he had done while here was more than fair considering Leon Hall had been the more consistant and overall better player to that point.

If we had to over pay to keep JJoe we probly could not have also kept hall. As he would want a bigger contract than JJoe received etc.

If you start over paying for talent you set a precident and soon enough you find yourself with to many guys not earning their pay.

[David]

I would not freak out with the loss of either one in particular, but I will freak out if all of our guys start leaving. The bag of goods we have been sold is that we build from the draft yada yada yada. Frankly I would much rather see a deal get done with Atkins this year.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by XenoMorph

Its considered Overpaying because of his injurey history... there was real reason for concern there... but there is no reason to over pay for talent.. because we you do you sacrafice talent somewhere else. Players want to break the bank because an agent whispers in their ear saying you could make more money (so they get a bigger cut)

Offering a 42 mil contract to jJoe for what he had done while here was more than fair considering Leon Hall had been the more consistant and overall better player to that point.

If we had to over pay to keep JJoe we probly could not have also kept hall. As he would want a bigger contract than JJoe received etc.

If you start over paying for talent you set a precident and soon enough you find yourself with to many guys not earning their pay.

Except rather than pay JJo $49m and completely lock down the CB position for 5 years.. who have the Bengals had to pay now?
Clements for $10.5m
Kelly Jennings for $1.8m
Jason Allen for $8.2m
Newman for $825k
Kirkpatrick for $8.2m (AND the 17th overall pick that could have been used on Martin/Jones/Wright/DeCastro/Hightower/Mercilus/Brown, which is just as if not more costly.)

So rather than pay $49m and lock up the position for 5 years, they have paid $29.5m and a 17th overall pick thus far, and got lower level of play than Joseph could have offered... and once again this offseason they're still going to have to try to address the position once more.

I also challenge your opinion that Leon hall was the "overall better player".. everyone saw JJo as the lead CB out of the duo. I believe there was a rather large rash of threads on this forum about how Hall was "dogmeat" I think the term used was, and how he needed to be cut. There was also everyone talking about how Hall was only good because JJo was there. Now did I agree with that? No, but JJo was more talented than Hall, while Hall is steady and consistent.

As to your point that they couldn't have afforded both Joseph and Hall.. I disagree. If they simply signed Joseph, Hall had another year on his contract. At the end of the 2011 season, the Bengals rolled over $15m in cap space to 2012... fifteen million! (the money they had to hold onto for Carson) That's not even counting the other cap space they naturally had in the 2012 offseason (which they rolled over another $8m and change)... That's more than enough to sign Leon Hall and have money left over with just the 2011 rolled over cap space, meaning they could have easily signed both. Seeing as how they had cap space to roll over in 2011, cap space to roll over in 2012, and now have $55m in cap space in 2013.. there's no way I will ever believe they couldn't have gotten them both signed rather than bring in a parade of former first round picks that added up to JJo's average yearly salary anyway.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

Except rather than pay JJo $49m and completely lock down the CB position for 5 years.. who have the Bengals had to pay now?
Clements for $10.5m
Kelly Jennings for $1.8m
Jason Allen for $8.2m
Newman for $825k
Kirkpatrick for $8.2m (AND the 17th overall pick that could have been used on Martin/Jones/Wright/DeCastro/Hightower/Mercilus/Brown, which is just as if not more costly.)

So rather than pay $49m and lock up the position for 5 years, they have paid $29.5m and a 17th overall pick thus far, and got lower level of play than Joseph could have offered... and once again this offseason they're still going to have to try to address the position once more.

I also challenge your opinion that Leon hall was the "overall better player".. everyone saw JJo as the lead CB out of the duo. I believe there was a rather large rash of threads on this forum about how Hall was "dogmeat" I think the term used was, and how he needed to be cut. There was also everyone talking about how Hall was only good because JJo was there. Now did I agree with that? No, but JJo was more talented than Hall, while Hall is steady and consistent.

As to your point that they couldn't have afforded both Joseph and Hall.. I disagree. If they simply signed Joseph, Hall had another year on his contract. At the end of the 2011 season, the Bengals rolled over $15m in cap space to 2012... fifteen million! (the money they had to hold onto for Carson) That's not even counting the other cap space they naturally had in the 2012 offseason (which they rolled over another $8m and change)... That's more than enough to sign Leon Hall and have money left over with just the 2011 rolled over cap space, meaning they could have easily signed both. Seeing as how they had cap space to roll over in 2011, cap space to roll over in 2012, and now have $55m in cap space in 2013.. there's no way I will ever believe they couldn't have gotten them both signed rather than bring in a parade of former first round picks that added up to JJo's average yearly salary anyway.

They had back to back top 10 defenses in terms of ppg without J Joe.

They can have a top 10 defense without MJ too.

[cheese]

Originally Posted by momadance02

Cool, then we could just put anyone next to Geno and they'd tear up the opposing offensive line, right?


I think it's crazy how some of you are trying to justify not giving MJ a big contract. You don't just let a player like him walk.

Can't both things be true though?

Maybe MJ is a really good DE right now and you don't really NEED a really good DE next to Geno to get to the QB.

[TheLeonardLeap]

Originally Posted by gardner30

They had back to back top 10 defenses in terms of ppg without J Joe.

They can have a top 10 defense without MJ too.

How long can Zimmer keep that up? How many talented players can you let walk in a relatively short period of time and just try to fill the hole they leave with 30+ year old former 1st rounders? It's not a sustainable method.

[M.W.]

I would really like to see them both re-signed.

MJ is very athletic and is able to disrupt a QB from a distance because of his leaping ability and long arms.

Andre is a top tier RT, it is never good to lose somebody like him in their prime.

If I had to pick only 1 to keep it would be Andre and it would be an easy decision. I feel as though he would be MUCH more difficult to replace.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

How long can Zimmer keep that up? How many talented players can you let walk in a relatively short period of time and just try to fill the hole they leave with 30+ year old former 1st rounders? It's not a sustainable method.

I agree.

It isn't sustainable and that is why there is so much parity in the NFL now.

Teams can't pay everyone what they want.

Its hard to keep the same team together for a long time.

They have to pick and choose who they give the monster deals to, I hope the Bengals pay Geno and AJ.

This is all a moot point if MJ asks for a contract that is in line with his overall production.

I think that contract is about 7-9 mil a year, you think differently.

Its all good though.

MJ will get paid by someone (hopefully the Bengals) and with the season he had last year and the type of guy he seems to be, he has earned it.

[bengalfan6147]

Franchise Smith, lock up MJ, Geathers.....peace.

[Shake n Blake]

Franchise Andre Smith and sign MJ as long as he doesn't demand elite money.

If MJ wants elite (top 5) money, bring back Frostee (for run downs) and team him with Gilberry (for pass rush). I don't think we'd miss much.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Franchise Andre Smith and sign MJ as long as he doesn't demand elite money.

If MJ wants elite (top 5) money, bring back Frostee (for run downs) and team him with Gilberry (for pass rush). I don't think we'd miss much.

We will miss a healthy young DE that can produce and play all 3 downs....

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by XenoMorph

We will miss a healthy young DE that can produce and play all 3 downs....

I did say "much". We'd miss him somewhat, but I don't think MJ is an elite player.

Frostee is a solid player. He was only released because the Browns are switching to 3-4.

Gilberry had 6.5 sacks in 14 games. He can fill the void rushing the passer.

MJ had 3 sacks against a backup in the Skins game and 2 in that last Ravens game, which was practically a preseason game.

He had one where Weeden tripped and fell into him. That means he had 5.5 legit sacks (at most).

[gardner30]

How many people think that MJ would have played as much as he did last season if Jamaal Anderson stayed healthy?

Do you think the intent was a 3 man rotation at LDE with Geathers, Anderson and Dunlap with MJ not rotating at all on the other side?

Would it have been the same as it was with Gilberry, who was signed week 3 and arguably should have seen more snaps?

Just curious.

The Bengals brought in a quality, run stopping DE in Jamaal Anderson for a reason after Frostee and Fanene left.

Do the Bengals view MJ as an every down DE?

It seems they didn't last offseason.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by TheLeonardLeap

5yr/$29.5m with $11.5m guaranteed in 2008 after 4 seasons of 2 sacks, 2 sack, 0.5 sacks, 8 sacks. So 4 years, 12.5 total sacks.

Exactly.....I guarantee you that MJ is viewed as a better prospect than Odom but still not as good as Peppers/Williams, there's just no way teams see him in that light, no way in hell.

Originally Posted by momadance02

I think you're dead wrong. They'll see MJ as an elite DE in the making and pay him accordingly. We have nothing working in our favor.


If they don't get these deals done ill be severely disappointed.

I'd lay down good money that the market for MJ is not in Williams/Peppers range.

I can't believe how much flak that perspective is getting. Ya'll really think MJ is as good as those guys??

Sorry, but no.

[jj22]

MJ may not have had the numbers his first three years, but he's put in work. If you watched him he always played the most snaps, run and pass, and was reliable. His first couple seasons he was switching from OLB and DE which could have slowed him down. His arrow always pointed up thinking back on it. He still young enough to have some potential left. People who think he's overrated, do you think he's reached his ceiling?

He's not on the Williams/Peppers level, and there are tons of better DE's in the league. But he's a fit for our D, and if we can pay for one good year from Geathers, then M.J can be that vet of the line for seemingly years to come. Peko wasn't overpaid, neither was Hall, or Whit. I think they'll get something done and it'll be fair. He can be replaced, but with all that money we should be building not replacing.

I'd tag Smith if it comes to only being able to do one contract. See if he can do it one more year, and draft a potential replacement this year or next. I wonder if they regret not picking up that option. Good for Dre. I think he's turned the corner. Or at least proved his critics wrong.

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by jj22

MJ may not have had the numbers his first three years, but he's put in work. If you watched him he always played the most snaps, run and pass, and was reliable. His first couple seasons he was switching from OLB and DE which could have slowed him down. His arrow always pointed up thinking back on it. He still young enough to have some potential left. People who think he's overrated, do you think he's reached his ceiling?

He's not on the Williams/Peppers level, and there are tons of better DE's in the league. But he's a fit for our D, and if we can pay for one good year from Geathers, then M.J can be that vet of the line for seemingly years to come. Peko wasn't overpaid, neither was Hall, or Whit. I think they'll get something done and it'll be fair. He can be replaced, but with all that money we should be building not replacing.

I'd tag Smith if it comes to only being able to do one contract. See if he can do it one more year, and draft a potential replacement this year or next. I wonder if they regret not picking up that option. Good for Dre. I think he's turned the corner. Or at least proved his critics wrong.

I think you're right on top of it, very much agree.

[Samhain]

Now that I've thought about this thread for a few days, i have a better answer:

I won't be surprised if one of the two walks. I'll be bummed to see MJ go, but Andre getting away would bother me. He's not my favorite player or anything, but I think the line is almost guaranteed to regress without him. They can draft a replacement, but most of the better tackles will be gone by the time they pick in round 1. That means we're either looking at developing a later pick or signing a FA. I have a feeling that this FA is a lot more likely to be Demetress Bell or Winston Justice than Ryan Clady or Sebastian Volmer. Either scenario would hurt this offense, maybe even a lot.

If MJ leaves, we stand a better chance of mitigating the loss. The d-line is a strength already and MJ isn't even the best of the bunch. Additionally, there are tons of first round caliber pass rushers in this draft. It's not unheard of for rookie d-linemen to be very good in their first year. The position seems to be one that doesn't have as big of a learning curve for high-level prospects.

I'd also prefer that they didn't just franchise Andre. He needs to be the right tackle here for years to come. His past issues with weight and attitude are a consideration, but I'd be willing to take the risk at this point. Outside of AJ Green and an aging Whitworth, this offense is nothing but a lot of question marks going forward. We need to lock up one one of the few players that is obviously one of the best in the league at his position. Pay the man.