How each team was assembled

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by whodey21

(for the 4th time) You are really hung up on a discussion that has been had before. Look at the bigger picture.

I am hung up? You were the one that brought up Joseph, not me.

[whodey21]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Your point was that we did not even try to re-sign Joseph. That is the biggest lie in this thread.

All I am doing is pointing out the comments that Joseph made after signing with the Texans. None of my facts are wrong. So since I am right how does that prove your point that we did not even try to re-sign Joseph?

There's an old saying, "you see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear". Through all of this you have missed the point entirely.

The point is, as I have said before, that we don't spend up to the cap. We don't even attempt to spend up to the cap to field a winning product. You got hung up on JJoe after I brought it up as an example of not making a decent offer when we could have easily afforded it, possibly kept a ProBowler, and not wasted a draft pick.

You got hung up on what would have happened, when the fact is we don't know. We won't know. We can't know, because we didn't make the offer we should have.

It isn't about keeping the players. It's about trying to keep good players when it's economically feasible. We didn't. We could have offered a huge, front-loaded contract, and if he declined it I would have accepted it as an inevitability. Instead, we tried to get away with matching offers, and we don't have the prestige to do that.

You are lost on the opinion that he might not have stayed. I am annoyed by the FACT that we didn't do everything we could to keep him, among others.

You say every team loses good players. I say we pack their bags for them.

[Housh]

Originally Posted by whodey21

There was no cap that year because of the lockout, just a recommended spending amount. Carson's threat was moot. Anyway, (as I have already stated) the JJoe case is just the highest profile example of us managing our personnel poorly. Most of us agreed that it was handled poorly. I brought it up because it is a microcosm of how this franchise was run. It appears to have gotten better, but I won't be convinced until we win some games that actually matter.



Not with a frontloaded contract, it can't. And you're looking at this with the wrong assumptions. I hope you aren't a lawyer or statistician. The base assumption is "He will stay if we pay more", until it is proven otherwise. Since it's too late to prove the opposite, we have to work off of that base assumption. Innocent until proven guilty, true until proven false.

You're also focusing way too much on this one example. There are plenty of others. For the third time this thread, this is just the highest profile.

Now, back to what I wanted to post in the first place before I got distracted:

Bengals! -emble!

So automatically your assumption is the base assumption? Why is that?

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Your point was that we did not even try to re-sign Joseph. That is the biggest lie in this thread.

All I am doing is pointing out the comments that Joseph made after signing with the Texans. None of my facts are wrong. So since I am right how does that prove your point that we did not even try to re-sign Joseph?

And its usually is a Bad deal to Over Pay for a Player that was Often Hurt. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt... His offer he received was fair if he wanted to stay he would have. He didnt get low balled here.

[whodey21]

Originally Posted by Housh

So automatically your assumption is the base assumption? Why is that?

No, the base assumption is "highest bid wins", not "poor pitiful me, everyone hates Cincinnati". Business mentality versus victim mentality.

Again, we're traipsing into unneccessary-land with this conversation. We don't spend up to the cap, even when we should. You're all extremely fixated on the one example.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by whodey21

You say every team loses good players. I say we pack their bags for them.

Since Marvin has been here we have paid big money to keep star free agents.

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Bobbie Williams
Jeremi Johnson
Geathers
Peko
Whitworth
Hall
Rudi Johnson
TJ
Chad
Carson

Now look at the guys we let go....

Steinbach....Cleveland grossly overpaid for him.
Stacy andrews....Eagles grossly overpaid for him.
Madieu Williams....Never lived up to his contract with Vikings
Justin Smith...I wanted to keep him, but most people here were glad to see him go.
Joseph....Hated to see him go, but he had too much of an injury issue to make him one of the highest paid CBs in the league.

So while I would like to have Justin smith and JOseph on our team right now I realize that EVERY team in the league loses a good free agent from time to time. So I am not going to crucify the the front office over losing those two and try to make up some BS lies about how we never resign any of our talented players.

Also be aware that I have always criticized Mike for not spending enough on top quality free agents, but I am not losing my mind over Joseph because of his injury history and his apparent desire to get out of here.

[Fanatic24]

Awesome stuff!

[whodey21]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

Since Marvin has been here we have paid big money to keep star free agents.

Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Bobbie Williams
Jeremi Johnson
Geathers
Peko
Whitworth
Hall
Rudi Johnson
TJ
Chad
Carson

Now look at the guys we let go....

Steinbach....Cleveland grossly overpaid for him.
Stacy andrews....Eagles grossly overpaid for him.
Madieu Williams....Never lived up to his contract with Vikings
Justin Smith...I wanted to keep him, but most people here were glad to see him go.
Joseph....Hated to see him go, but he had too much of an injury issue to make him one of the highest paid CBs in the league.

You keep getting distracted. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE SPENT UP TO THE CAP?

Ignoring the fact that you continue to manufacture alternate points of debate, virtually every player on this hand-picked-by-you list, including the ones we "paid big money to keep" found themselves on a playoff team between their time here and their retirement. Do you think we're so good that the Ravens, Patriots, Texans, etc. are just waiting to pick up the guys we cut/don't re-sign? We had no business letting anyone who could make those rosters leave Ohio if we could afford it. (By the way, Zimmer was just fine with JJoe's "injury issues". A man who was in the know was more ******* off than any fan was that we let him go.) When you can afford to keep great players, there's no reason not to pay them.

I'd rather see us pay a guy and have him not work out than to not even try and have to listen to you talk about how it probably wouldn't have worked anyway.

I would prefer that we "grossly overpay" players like JJoe, Smith, or even Graham or Spikes than see us constantly shopping the WalMart $5 player bin. I'm tired of our "You saved ___ million dollars by not trying to be successful this year!" at the bottom of our free agency receipt. It's high time we lead the league in something besides cap space.

[AlaskanHero]

JJoe did in fact note that with the Texans, they allowed him to take Gatorade home, something not allowed with the Bengals, but he never said anything about that being one of the reasons he left. One could possibly infer that the FO's rep for being cheap is a reason he left, but there's nothing in black and white saying that's why he did. The contract offer he received from the Bengals was about the same as what the Texans offered, so in this case it wasn't really the front office being cheap and not paying the guy. They were well and willing to pay the man and it's not like the Texans had a record of success, only making the playoffs for the first time last year. However, at that time of Free Agency, there was a LARGE distinction between the perceived direction both teams were going. The Texans were playoffs or bust. With the Bengals, Palmer tapped and wanted out and it looked like the team was going to once again be historically bad. It's honestly a credit to the front office that they got ANY free agents worth a crap considering it was public knowledge that the franchise QB wanted out. And this is after a pretty nasty losing season.

I mean, look at it this way. If your contract was up, you were in the prime of your career, one of the best in the league, and you had the Texans, who hadn't had much success, but definitely looked like they were on the rise, and the Bengals, who just finished a 4-12 season, re-signed Marvin Lewis, and now had their franchise QB demanding out (in other words a sinking ship) offering you a contract, which would you realistically sign for? While the money was probably about the same, the Texans offered a far, far more promising situation overall at that time, seems like a no brainer to me.

Seriously, everyone acts like signing people is a one way street. Offer enough money and they'll just go where ever. If the money's about the same, you go to the better situation. That's what JJoe did.

Now can we move on from discussing this man? He's gone, he literally left years ago. If you want to be ****** with righteous fury at the FO for being cheap or whatever, wait for them to actually screw up instead of dragging up old crap just to be mad. If they're as bad as you think they are, you shouldn't have long to wait, and if you are left waiting? Then they might not be as terrible as you think.