WHITWORTH and MAUALUGA

[BengalRugby]

Whitworth has been amazing all year.


I haven't seen it, and the numbers seem to agree. One pace for his second worst season as a pro.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

31st and 25th when running to the left, their two worst percentages being left end and left tackle. Yes, even worse that running it right up the gut.


4 penalties costing the team 35 yards, and 3 sacks allowed, costing another 25.

[Go Cards]

Until Sunday. No Bengals player has been amazing this season. Maybe AJ, if any.

But both Whit and Rey played well. Great to see.


Can not overlook the play of Trevor Robinson making the transition to Center and helping the team positively in only his second start at the position. We needed that.


Hopefully this is the new trend........................ Maximum team effort !

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Whitworth has been amazing all year.


I haven't seen it, and the numbers seem to agree. One pace for his second worst season as a pro.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

31st and 25th when running to the left, their two worst percentages being left end and left tackle. Yes, even worse that running it right up the gut.


4 penalties costing the team 35 yards, and 3 sacks allowed, costing another 25.

And that's the thing; on pace for his second worst season, and he's still having a better year than Thomas, Brick, et al.

He's been amazing all year.

[Lolli]

Originally Posted by bfine32

Haven't been a fan of Rey's play in the middle; however, he actually looked like a pro ball player out there today. He was a victim of a couple ticky-tack fouls but he got away with a helmet to helmet on Bradshaw (wouldn't be surprised to see a fine). The only negative play that comes to mind is on the 1st down where the RB (Brown?) drove him about 9 yards downfield.

If Rey can continue to improve we might have to consider extending him.

Maybe he is off the sauce.

[torro]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

I have seen him play games where he bowled guys over in the run game, and didn't move a muscle in pass pro.

Yesterday, he was thrown on his *** on one play, and he got no push.

He's had MANY better games, this year included.

My comments were based on who he was playing against. Pierre-Paul is a monster and Whitworth played like an all-Pro against him.

[BengalRugby]

And that's the thing; on pace for his second worst season, and he's still having a better year than Thomas, Brick, et al.

He's been amazing all year.


So on pace for committing 5.75 penalties coosting the team 50.3 yards. In addition to allowing 3.4 sacks, costing the team another 35.78 yards, is amazing? And the rushiong attack to his side being ranked 31ts and 25th in the league is amazing?

I don't think so.

[HellMarine]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

And that's the thing; on pace for his second worst season, and he's still having a better year than Thomas, Brick, et al.

He's been amazing all year.


So on pace for committing 5.75 penalties coosting the team 50.3 yards. In addition to allowing 3.4 sacks, costing the team another 35.78 yards, is amazing? And the rushiong attack to his side being ranked 31ts and 25th in the league is amazing?

I don't think so.

Six penalties and 3 sacks over the course of the season is fantastic, especially considering he'll see somewhere around 750-850 snaps.

[BengalRugby]

Six penalties and 3 sacks over the course of the season is fantastic, especially considering he'll see somewhere around 750-850 snaps.

Could compare him to D'Brick Ferguson, who currently has 1 penalty and 1.5 sacks allowed.

Or Joe Thomas with 5 penalties and 2 sacks allowed?

Or the Giants Beatty, 5 penalties and no sacks allowed?

In fact, he's not too far off from the Ravens Michael Oher, who we all panned as a terrible LT, and currenlty has allowed 4 sacks and committed 4 penalties...

[HellMarine]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Six penalties and 3 sacks over the course of the season is fantastic, especially considering he'll see somewhere around 750-850 snaps.

Could compare him to D'Brick Ferguson, who currently has 1 penalty and 1.5 sacks allowed.

Or Joe Thomas with 5 penalties and 2 sacks allowed?

Or the Giants Beatty, 5 penalties and no sacks allowed?

In fact, he's not too far off from the Ravens Michael Oher, who we all panned as a terrible LT, and currenlty has allowed 4 sacks and committed 4 penalties...

That's great for them, but as you should know, sacks are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I'd rather have Andy get sacked than get hurried into a bad throw. Hurries and hits are more disruptive to a QBs game than getting sacked.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by HellMarine

That's great for them, but as you should know, sacks are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I'd rather have Andy get sacked than get hurried into a bad throw. Hurries and hits are more disruptive to a QBs game than getting sacked.

Exactly.

Sacks are nothing in sitches like this; they are part of a much bigger whole; total pressures.

Whitworth has less than 'brick, 1 more than Thomas (Thomas has more penalties, and even worse run game)

And TONS less than Oher.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by torro

My comments were based on who he was playing against. Pierre-Paul is a monster and Whitworth played like an all-Pro against him.

I agree in that sense; to surrender a mere hurry to JPP and Osi is a BIG thing.

[Slappy from New Haven]

Originally Posted by Truck_1_0_1_

Whitworth has been amazing all year.

He has not. Dumerville owned him.

Whit has some either foot or knee issues. He can't bend as well and stands up pretty quick out of his stance. I think he is getting better but he has had some health issues

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Originally Posted by NC Bengal Mike

He has not. Dumerville owned him.

Whit has some either foot or knee issues. He can't bend as well and stands up pretty quick out of his stance. I think he is getting better but he has had some health issues

2 penalties after an entire game of surrendering nothing, is not being owned.

[BengalRugby]

That's great for them, but as you should know, sacks are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I'd rather have Andy get sacked than get hurried into a bad throw. Hurries and hits are more disruptive to a QBs game than getting sacked.


Make up your mind.


First you tout sacks and penalties like they're something, then when I show Whit is worse that 3 or 4 tackles, you claim they mean nothing. Quit moving the goalposts.


Even compared to the tackles in the running game, Whit is at the bottom of the pile as evidenced in the directional running stats provided by footballoutsiders.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


If you think hurries and hits are now more disruptive, then please post the numbers making the case along with clear qualifications as to what is a hit and a hurry.

[Housh]

I don't respect anybody who goes in the Rey hate threads week after week talking trash then has the nerve to act like a fan or like they care about him when he has a good game. That BS can go kick rocks.

I'm not a Rey fan or hater. It's just funny now Rey is getting love.

My opinion on him is he plays for the explosion too much when most the times he should just try and be the lighter. Idk if you get it. Playin for the home run would be cool if he had the physical abilities to make up for when he gets beat. But he doesn't so usually when he gets best he's usually TOTALLY out of the play. But I will say there are way worse MLBs out there we could be stuck with. Rey is still young and honestly we took him out his position to play MLB so we should've expected some growing pains.

I still remember when we drafted him I was like wow I can't believe he fell to us.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Housh

I don't respect anybody who goes in the Rey hate threads week after week talking trash then has the nerve to act like a fan or like they care about him when he has a good game. That BS can go kick rocks.

I'm not a Rey fan or hater. It's just funny now Rey is getting love.

My opinion on him is he plays for the explosion too much when most the times he should just try and be the lighter. Idk if you get it. Playin for the home run would be cool if he had the physical abilities to make up for when he gets beat. But he doesn't so usually when he gets best he's usually TOTALLY out of the play. But I will say there are way worse MLBs out there we could be stuck with. Rey is still young and honestly we took him out his position to play MLB so we should've expected some growing pains.

I still remember when we drafted him I was like wow I can't believe he fell to us.

Wasn't he a MLB his whole football life before he got here and played SAM?

He was a better SAM than MLB IMO.

[Shake n Blake]

He was terrible for 8 games. Not ready to forget that because he played 1 good one. I still want someone else to man the middle in 2013. I would only want Rey back at a discount price as a Sam. I wouldn't even want him as a backup Mike.

[HellMarine]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

That's great for them, but as you should know, sacks are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I'd rather have Andy get sacked than get hurried into a bad throw. Hurries and hits are more disruptive to a QBs game than getting sacked.


Make up your mind.


First you tout sacks and penalties like they're something, then when I show Whit is worse that 3 or 4 tackles, you claim they mean nothing. Quit moving the goalposts.


Even compared to the tackles in the running game, Whit is at the bottom of the pile as evidenced in the directional running stats provided by footballoutsiders.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


If you think hurries and hits are now more disruptive, then please post the numbers making the case along with clear qualifications as to what is a hit and a hurry.

First, I never touted anything. YOU came in talking about how many sacks, penalties and yards he had given up and I merely said that over the course of a year, those numbers weren't really that bad. Then you came in comparing tackles with sacks and penalties saying how Whit was worse than so-and-so, so I basically took it as you trying to initiate a debate and stated that hurries and hits are more disruptive than sacks. I've argued this before, with wilsonscience actually, so I've never "moved the goalposts".

Just for the record, you're over-exaggerating as well. I never said anywhere in my post that sacks/penalties meant nothing. I said SACKS are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I never said anything about penalties, obviously penalties are important.

Whitworth has given up 3 sacks, 0 hits and 9 hurries, 12 total pressures. Ryan Clady, Brandon Albert and Joe Thomas are the only ones ahead of him. Clady has 8 total pressures (6 hurries, 2 hits) Thomas has 10 total pressures (1 sack, 1 hit, 8 hurries) and Albert has 12 total pressures (1 sack, 3 hits, 8 hurries).

Ferguson has 13 total pressures.

Beatty has 16.

Oher has 25.

The definitions are fairly self explanatory. A hurry is a hurry, pressuring the QB, not allowing him to step into the throw, throwing it quicker than he would like unless he takes a sack. A hit being the lineman allowing the defensive player to come through after the QB has thrown the ball and knock the QB down.

As well, I never said anything about his run game.



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[BengaliJack]

Originally Posted by Housh

I don't respect anybody who goes in the Rey hate threads week after week talking trash then has the nerve to act like a fan or like they care about him when he has a good game. That BS can go kick rocks.

I'm not a Rey fan or hater. It's just funny now Rey is getting love.

Are you his cousin or something? ANY athelete who underperforms is going to get loads of crap.......ALWAYS. Now when that same athelete starts EARNING his paycheck...albeit 1 game....of COURSE he will get his props....thats the IDEA...to get the guy to play to his potential. NO Bengal fan on these boards wanted Rey to fail.....but yes....fail and you will feel the pain......succeed and you will feel the love. If you dont like it, you may want to give mom back the laptop, go grab that teddybear and sleep in the corner because it will probably get worse before it gets better. Just sayin.

[BengalRugby]

First, I never touted anything. YOU came in talking about how many sacks, penalties and yards he had given up and I merely said that over the course of a year, those numbers weren't really that bad.

How soon you forget your own words, 4:55pm...


Six penalties and 3 sacks over the course of the season is fantastic, especially considering he'll see somewhere around 750-850 snaps.

So based on sacks and penalties, you claimed Whit was having a fantastic year. I never said he was playing bad, just below par for how he normally played. You claimed he was playing fantastic based on sacks and penalties, which I then provided other players with better of the same stats to illustrate why your position was false.


Just for the record, you're over-exaggerating as well. I never said anywhere in my post that sacks/penalties meant nothing. I said SACKS are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I never said anything about penalties, obviously penalties are important.

False again. I used the same quantity you used, and freely admit to using them first, and you came to the table using the same. But when I disproved your position, you moved the goalposts to hurries and hits and discounted the previous standards. So please, don't try and point blame at me when you are the one tapdancing and re-writing criteria.


Whitworth has given up 3 sacks, 0 hits and 9 hurries, 12 total pressures. Ryan Clady, Brandon Albert and Joe Thomas are the only ones ahead of him. Clady has 8 total pressures (6 hurries, 2 hits) Thomas has 10 total pressures (1 sack, 1 hit, 8 hurries) and Albert has 12 total pressures (1 sack, 3 hits, 8 hurries).

Ferguson has 13 total pressures.

Beatty has 16.

Oher has 25.

The definitions are fairly self explanatory. A hurry is a hurry, pressuring the QB, not allowing him to step into the throw, throwing it quicker than he would like unless he takes a sack. A hit being the lineman allowing the defensive player to come through after the QB has thrown the ball and knock the QB down.

As well, I never said anything about his run game.

How close to they have to be to merit hurrying the QB? If two players are near, who is credited with the hurry? Seems a very subjective call. Similarly with the hit, does he have to knock the QB to the ground, like a fall incident at a nursing home, or is hard contact enough? Seems pretty iffy and subjective, and hard to calculate, since you really don't know the assignments of all the o-linemen. I guess the same could be said of sacks as well, but at least that is not a subjective "stat" as a sack is clearly when the QB is tackled.

I added the information about the running game to bolster the position that Whitworth is not playing "fantastic" this season. It was supplemental information, not a new set of criteria to judge him by, like some attempted to install...

[HellMarine]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

First, I never touted anything. YOU came in talking about how many sacks, penalties and yards he had given up and I merely said that over the course of a year, those numbers weren't really that bad.

How soon you forget your own words, 4:55pm...


Six penalties and 3 sacks over the course of the season is fantastic, especially considering he'll see somewhere around 750-850 snaps.

So based on sacks and penalties, you claimed Whit was having a fantastic year. I never said he was playing bad, just below par for how he normally played. You claimed he was playing fantastic based on sacks and penalties, which I then provided other players with better of the same stats to illustrate why your position was false.


Just for the record, you're over-exaggerating as well. I never said anywhere in my post that sacks/penalties meant nothing. I said SACKS are one of the least worrisome things a tackle can give up. I never said anything about penalties, obviously penalties are important.

False again. I used the same quantity you used, and freely admit to using them first, and you came to the table using the same. But when I disproved your position, you moved the goalposts to hurries and hits and discounted the previous standards. So please, don't try and point blame at me when you are the one tapdancing and re-writing criteria.


Whitworth has given up 3 sacks, 0 hits and 9 hurries, 12 total pressures. Ryan Clady, Brandon Albert and Joe Thomas are the only ones ahead of him. Clady has 8 total pressures (6 hurries, 2 hits) Thomas has 10 total pressures (1 sack, 1 hit, 8 hurries) and Albert has 12 total pressures (1 sack, 3 hits, 8 hurries).

Ferguson has 13 total pressures.

Beatty has 16.

Oher has 25.

The definitions are fairly self explanatory. A hurry is a hurry, pressuring the QB, not allowing him to step into the throw, throwing it quicker than he would like unless he takes a sack. A hit being the lineman allowing the defensive player to come through after the QB has thrown the ball and knock the QB down.

As well, I never said anything about his run game.

How close to they have to be to merit hurrying the QB? If two players are near, who is credited with the hurry? Seems a very subjective call. Similarly with the hit, does he have to knock the QB to the ground, like a fall incident at a nursing home, or is hard contact enough? Seems pretty iffy and subjective, and hard to calculate, since you really don't know the assignments of all the o-linemen. I guess the same could be said of sacks as well, but at least that is not a subjective "stat" as a sack is clearly when the QB is tackled.

I added the information about the running game to bolster the position that Whitworth is not playing "fantastic" this season. It was supplemental information, not a new set of criteria to judge him by, like some attempted to install...

Incorrect. I didn't forget my words, I know what I said. Six penalties and 3 sacks over a 750-800 snap season is fantastic, but that doesn't mean I was touting anything. Then once you started posting players that were doing better in those categories, I stated that hurries and hits are more disruptive. I never tap-danced, as you said, I moved to my argument, which I've used this year already.

I came to the table stating that 3 sacks and 6 penalties is fantastic over a 16 game season. I wasn't intending to initiate a debate, was simply stating what I believed. Once you started comparing him, that's when I moved to my argument regarding hurries and hits, which, again I've stood by since the Whitworth argument with wilsonscience began.

Again, you claim I am tap-dancing around when I am not, and never have. Pass blocking wise, Whitworth has done fantastic, which is all I've ever argued. If I'm going to tout anything, it's his TP count.

[BengalRugby]

Incorrect. I didn't forget my words, I know what I said. Six penalties and 3 sacks over a 750-800 snap season is fantastic, but that doesn't mean I was touting anything. Then once you started posting players that were doing better in those categories, I stated that hurries and hits are more disruptive. I never tap-danced, as you said, I moved to my argument, which I've used this year already.

I came to the table stating that 3 sacks and 6 penalties is fantastic over a 16 game season. I wasn't intending to initiate a debate, was simply stating what I believed. Once you started comparing him, that's when I moved to my argument regarding hurries and hits, which, again I've stood by since the Whitworth argument with wilsonscience began.

Again, you claim I am tap-dancing around when I am not, and never have. Pass blocking wise, Whitworth has done fantastic, which is all I've ever argued. If I'm going to tout anything, it's his TP count.



False, you were touting Whit as "fantastic" based off sacks allowed and penalties, which I proved false by stating the stats of other starting left tackles who are not "fantastic" but have similar sack. Just following the criteria you used to exemplify "fantastic" play, which inspired you to move the goalposts.


If your initial premise was false, which was evidenced by other tackles having better numbers and not playing "fantastic" football, then the rest falls to the wayside as my initial point is proven.


Heck, to a good number of posters here, old Whit isn't passing the eyeball test. Hopefully his play keeps improving, as I have defended him many times in the past. But so far, his play has been less than stellar, as the the numbers show.

[Tony33]

Never had a problem with Wit play, however; Rey played like a second string backer, when before he was playing like a special team player. Figure it out.

[HellMarine]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Incorrect. I didn't forget my words, I know what I said. Six penalties and 3 sacks over a 750-800 snap season is fantastic, but that doesn't mean I was touting anything. Then once you started posting players that were doing better in those categories, I stated that hurries and hits are more disruptive. I never tap-danced, as you said, I moved to my argument, which I've used this year already.

I came to the table stating that 3 sacks and 6 penalties is fantastic over a 16 game season. I wasn't intending to initiate a debate, was simply stating what I believed. Once you started comparing him, that's when I moved to my argument regarding hurries and hits, which, again I've stood by since the Whitworth argument with wilsonscience began.

Again, you claim I am tap-dancing around when I am not, and never have. Pass blocking wise, Whitworth has done fantastic, which is all I've ever argued. If I'm going to tout anything, it's his TP count.



False, you were touting Whit as "fantastic" based off sacks allowed and penalties, which I proved false by stating the stats of other starting left tackles who are not "fantastic" but have similar sack. Just following the criteria you used to exemplify "fantastic" play, which inspired you to move the goalposts.


If your initial premise was false, which was evidenced by other tackles having better numbers and not playing "fantastic" football, then the rest falls to the wayside as my initial point is proven.


Heck, to a good number of posters here, old Whit isn't passing the eyeball test. Hopefully his play keeps improving, as I have defended him many times in the past. But so far, his play has been less than stellar, as the the numbers show.

I'm not going to sit here and keeping saying one another is "false" or "incorrect" because it's pointless. Those numbers are fantastic, and so are the numbers of the other tackles, but I also knew what Whitworth's TP count was. I've argued the material before, and I have an account there so I know that the numbers are. If you look solely at the sack and penalty numbers of Whitworth and the three guys you posted, it gives the impression of fantastic play, based solely off those numbers, but I brought in TP, which sacks are only a element of.

Regardless, Whitworth is playing fantastic football in the pass game, which is the only thing I've ever argued.