Bengals/Dallas and free agents

[rfaulk34]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

I agree about re-signing Geno and Smith, no idea why people want them to resign as they are too talented and have much of their futures still ahead of them...



MJ is very replaceable, as he was basically a non-factor until Dunlap hit the field. He's Tito Jackson. Great when paired with Dunlap, but if he went it alone, his career would fizzle. Check with Housh for details...

Johnson is a middle/upper-middle DE right now. If he continues to improve, as he's done every year, he'll be a consistent top 15 player. All he needs is a breakout year in sacks to get him noticed. As it is, he's overshadowed by Geno's ability and Dunlap's hype. And he's just a quiet dude by nature. He's definitely worth resigning but only at a reasonable price based on his production.

Michael Johnson, DE, Cincinnati Bengals

In the offseason there was talk that the Bengals would reduce Michael Johnson’s snaps to keep him fresh all season, well that plan may have changed with Johnson’s strong start. He is only 22nd in our Pass Rushing Productivity among defensive ends with seven sacks and 25 total pressures in 249 pass rush snaps. A reason for his large snap count total could be associated with his dependability in the run game also, where he has a +5.9 grade and has become an every-down player. At just 25 years old Johnson has picked a great time to blossom.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...g-their-value/

[BengalRugby]

Johnson is a middle/upper-middle DE right now. If he continues to improve, as he's done every year, he'll be a consistent top 15 player. All he needs is a breakout year in sacks to get him noticed. As it is, he's overshadowed by Geno's ability and Dunlap's hype. And he's just a quiet dude by nature. He's definitely worth resigning but only at a reasonable price based on his production.

Michael Johnson, DE, Cincinnati Bengals

In the offseason there was talk that the Bengals would reduce Michael Johnson’s snaps to keep him fresh all season, well that plan may have changed with Johnson’s strong start. He is only 22nd in our Pass Rushing Productivity among defensive ends with seven sacks and 25 total pressures in 249 pass rush snaps. A reason for his large snap count total could be associated with his dependability in the run game also, where he has a +5.9 grade and has become an every-down player. At just 25 years old Johnson has picked a great time to blossom.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...g-their-value/


I've seen the hype, but what did he do without Dunlap in the line up? That's the point I was making. Don't misunderstand, I really like what MJ does opposite Carlos, but without Dunlap, he was a non-factor.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by rfaulk34

Johnson is a middle/upper-middle DE right now. If he continues to improve, as he's done every year, he'll be a consistent top 15 player. All he needs is a breakout year in sacks to get him noticed. As it is, he's overshadowed by Geno's ability and Dunlap's hype. And he's just a quiet dude by nature. He's definitely worth resigning but only at a reasonable price based on his production.

Michael Johnson, DE, Cincinnati Bengals

In the offseason there was talk that the Bengals would reduce Michael Johnson’s snaps to keep him fresh all season, well that plan may have changed with Johnson’s strong start. He is only 22nd in our Pass Rushing Productivity among defensive ends with seven sacks and 25 total pressures in 249 pass rush snaps. A reason for his large snap count total could be associated with his dependability in the run game also, where he has a +5.9 grade and has become an every-down player. At just 25 years old Johnson has picked a great time to blossom.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...g-their-value/

Haven't we seen this a lot before here though? A strong run-stopper and adequate pass-rusher. A younger version of Geathers perhaps? I'm not saying he isn't one of our better defensive players, but we can certainly do better. Either way, I'd still like to take a DE early. We missed on Moch, hoping he'd be our version of Aldon Smith, so I'd like to remedy that this offseason.

[rfaulk34]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

Johnson is a middle/upper-middle DE right now. If he continues to improve, as he's done every year, he'll be a consistent top 15 player. All he needs is a breakout year in sacks to get him noticed. As it is, he's overshadowed by Geno's ability and Dunlap's hype. And he's just a quiet dude by nature. He's definitely worth resigning but only at a reasonable price based on his production.

Michael Johnson, DE, Cincinnati Bengals

In the offseason there was talk that the Bengals would reduce Michael Johnson’s snaps to keep him fresh all season, well that plan may have changed with Johnson’s strong start. He is only 22nd in our Pass Rushing Productivity among defensive ends with seven sacks and 25 total pressures in 249 pass rush snaps. A reason for his large snap count total could be associated with his dependability in the run game also, where he has a +5.9 grade and has become an every-down player. At just 25 years old Johnson has picked a great time to blossom.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...g-their-value/


I've seen the hype, but what did he do without Dunlap in the line up? That's the point I was making. Don't misunderstand, I really like what MJ does opposite Carlos, but without Dunlap, he was a non-factor.

But to be fair, other than elite pass rushers, most DEs benefit from someone opposite them. He's not an elite pass rusher but he's very dependable and durable. All things considered, between signing him and letting him walk, i'd prefer the Bengals sign him.

[mars304]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

- Marvin Jones has done nothing this year, and Sanu shows promise but isn't quite ready to make an impact. So...I don't think the WR2 spot is being filled nicely this season at all. Next year, possibly. No one will ever convince me that a 2 year deal for Manningham as a stopgap would've hurt the team (or the development of Sanu/Jones for that matter).

- Our SS spot has been a platoon of two aged vets and a guy with no football instincts. If you think that's even close to an ideal situation then I'll have to strongly disagree.

- The injury was fairly predictable. Scott has never been accused of being durable. Leonard is made of glass also and never carries the ball much anyway. Lamar Miller or Robert Turbin would've helped.

Never said anything about BIG free agents. I said we left some holes left unfilled. We did.

Keep in mind that I'm agreeing with about everything you said, but what has Lamar Miller done this year? Has he even played a snap? I'm not being facetious, I honestly haven't heard of him playing at all.

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[BengalRugby]

But to be fair, other than elite pass rushers, most DEs benefit from someone opposite them. He's not an elite pass rusher but he's very dependable and durable. All things considered, between signing him and letting him walk, i'd prefer the Bengals sign him.


I agree, and am simply pointing out that without Dunlap, MJ was a non-factor. If we went back to check threads fromt he first few weeks of the season, prior to Dunlap getting healthy, we would see many here calling for MJ's head, me included.

I question dependable, as to the fact that prior to CD returning to the lineup, MJ was dependable to being a ghost on the stat sheet. If the Bengals re-sign him, it should not be exceptionally generous, as he disappears without Dunlap on the other side. But would rather keep Johnson over Geathers, and agree his durability is an asset.

[rfaulk34]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Haven't we seen this a lot before here though? A strong run-stopper and adequate pass-rusher. A younger version of Geathers perhaps? I'm not saying he isn't one of our better defensive players, but we can certainly do better. Either way, I'd still like to take a DE early. We missed on Moch, hoping he'd be our version of Aldon Smith, so I'd like to remedy that this offseason.

The only reason i wouldn't take a DE early is because the Dline is producing right now and there are other areas of need that could use an upgrade more than the Dline. If a "can't miss" was there when the Bengals pick, i could be swayed, but right now DE is down on my list of needs.

[rfaulk34]

Originally Posted by BengalRugby

But to be fair, other than elite pass rushers, most DEs benefit from someone opposite them. He's not an elite pass rusher but he's very dependable and durable. All things considered, between signing him and letting him walk, i'd prefer the Bengals sign him.


I agree, and am simply pointing out that without Dunlap, MJ was a non-factor. If we went back to check threads fromt he first few weeks of the season, prior to Dunlap getting healthy, we would see many here calling for MJ's head, me included.

I question dependable, as to the fact that prior to CD returning to the lineup, MJ was dependable to being a ghost on the stat sheet. If the Bengals re-sign him, it should not be exceptionally generous, as he disappears without Dunlap on the other side. But would rather keep Johnson over Geathers, and agree his durability is an asset.

Solid points.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by mars304

Keep in mind that I'm agreeing with about everything you said, but what has Lamar Miller done this year? Has he even played a snap? I'm not being facetious, I honestly haven't heard of him playing at all.

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He has 27 carries for 145 yards (5.4 ypc) and a td. When he gets PT, he's producing, but as of now he's stuck behind Reggie Bush and Daniel Thomas on the depth chart. That said, I'm 99% certain the phins will let Bush walk in FA and we will see alot more of Miller next year. Probably in a platoon with Thomas.

[mars304]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

He has 27 carries for 145 yards (5.4 ypc) and a td. When he gets PT, he's producing, but as of now he's stuck behind Reggie Bush and Daniel Thomas on the depth chart. That said, I'm 99% certain the phins will let Bush walk in FA and we will see alot more of Miller next year. Probably in a platoon with Thomas.

Ok. I just hadn't noticed him. Saw bush and thomas but hadn't seen him run it.

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[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by mars304

Ok. I just hadn't noticed him. Saw bush and thomas but hadn't seen him run it.

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Well, he didn't log any PT against us, so unless you've watched other Dolphins games, you didn't see him.

[SHRacerX]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Haven't we seen this a lot before here though? A strong run-stopper and adequate pass-rusher. A younger version of Geathers perhaps? I'm not saying he isn't one of our better defensive players, but we can certainly do better. Either way, I'd still like to take a DE early. We missed on Moch, hoping he'd be our version of Aldon Smith, so I'd like to remedy that this offseason.

Agreed. The Bengals need a pass rushing specialist that could rush from the RDE spot and maybe even switch sides and spell Dunlap (since I would imagine Geathers is gone) and provide some serious pass rush. MJ would likely be more effective is kept a little more fresh.

I was so hopeful of Moch. I guess he isn't dead yet, but you have to wonder if 1990s Cincinnati Medicine can't help him in his first two years... It's really too bad. Think he could have been a steal in 3rd round.

I'm sure they will be looking for someone else of that ilk to take his place next season. I know this isn't draft forum, but I could see them going DE in the first round. Generating pressure with your front four is that important in a 4-3 defense.

[Ryan Mc]

I'm not convinced. People criticize FA unnecessarily ... it's funny how a bad FA signing supposedly proves that using FA is a bad idea, but nobody ever concludes that building through the draft is a bad idea whenever a draft pick ends up being a bust ... which is more common than a free agent. The 2009 Saints were a great example of building through FA and trades: Brees, Shockey, Vilma, Sharper. In the years leading up to that 2009 championship season the Saints traded several draft picks for veteran FAs: in 2007 they had no 2nd round pick, 2008 no 3rd or 4th round picks, 2009 no 2nd or 3rd round picks. How's that for building through the draft? You've just got to do whatever it takes to strengthen the roster. There is only good management versus bad management ... it's not about one specific way of building a team.

I've had longer arguments on this issue before, so I'll keep it shorter now. In the offseason I wanted us to address the #2 WR position by signing Reggie Wayne to play opposite AJ. Anybody want to make me an argument for how we are NOT a better team this season with Wayne on the roster? (to say nothing of the fact that the team right ahead of us in the wildcard race would be significantly weaker without him) As for whether signing Wayne would have destroyed our future competitiveness, it's true we would have been on the hook for some big money, but at least it would have been money well spent.

People often say that we do the right thing because we don't "over"-pay in free agency. However, I think that is exactly what we end up doing ... because we end up acquiring mediocre players who do little for us. Once you consider the level of play we get from our FAs, it actually is over-paying for their contributions even when we go cheap. On the other hand, it's not "over"-paying when you actually acquire a star who makes a huge impact on your team. By trying to go cheap in FA we actually end up over-paying for mediocre production (consider Green-Ellis versus Marshawn Lynch, another FA many on here were interested in. Sure, we didn't "over"-pay at RB by going for the cheaper Green-Ellis instead of making a play for Lynch ... but we got a whole lot less productivity to go with it too. I think you can make a good argument that we DID over-pay for BJGE, considering the lackluster play we got in return).

[Bengals Mike]

Originally Posted by bengals67

Watched Dallas lose to Skins last night.

Interesting to think about the money Dallas spent on free agents and how it has turned out for them.

Now that we have some rising stars that need to be re-signed, I think we need to acknowledge the strategy of Bengals' front office in not pursing higher priced free agents -

provided we use the money to re-sign our rising stars.

We cannot lose Geno, Michael Johnson and Andre Smith.

I'm surprised there's only been one mention of this but Nate Living 5 years $19 million is all you need to know of free agency, there's so few elite players in free agency anymore that there's bidding wars that exceed reasonable and then you have moves like this where we couldnt have been happier to get rid of Livings the first chance we got last year and then Dallas turns around and does something like this basically most of free agency is overpaying for average players, I get my hopes up with the draft instead

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Bengals Mike

I'm surprised there's only been one mention of this but Nate Living 5 years $19 million is all you need to know of free agency, there's so few elite players in free agency anymore that there's bidding wars that exceed reasonable and then you have moves like this where we couldnt have been happier to get rid of Livings the first chance we got last year and then Dallas turns around and does something like this basically most of free agency is overpaying for average players, I get my hopes up with the draft instead

Judging from contracts then, Travelle Wharton must be terrible because he got paid less than Livings.

[Bengals Mike]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Judging from contracts then, Travelle Wharton must be terrible because he got paid less than Livings.

and apparently Nate Livings is more valuable than the Law Firm as well

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by Bengals Mike

and apparently Nate Livings is more valuable than the Law Firm as well

Thats a possibility.

[D's Nuts and Bolts]

Originally Posted by Fan_in_Kettering

Jerry Jones is what happens when Al Davis and Mike Holmgren have a kid together. Jerry is a nutcase who vacillates between delirium and depression and who sees stars and dollar signs in his eyes whenever a notable player becomes eligible for free agency or trade. The Cowboys' problem is simple: Jerry doesn't think before he signs free agents or drafts players because he makes the same mistake every year of failing to consider which players fit his schemes best. So, therefore, every year Jerry ends up with a collection of players who look like world-beaters on paper but are really a Texas version of the Philadelphia Eagles.

Now, with this being said, I think sometimes the Bengals are too cautious in free agency but this is changing slowly as Marvin Lewis gets more say in these decisions. Smart Front Offices look at free agency with a 30,000 foot view, not with a microscope, signing players who would have an immediate positive impact upon their team.

Jerry Jones would be well advised to look at the way Tex Schramm and Tom Landry built the Cowboys into a permanent contender or the way Bob Kraft and Bill Belichick built the Patriots onto a nearly unstoppable juggernaut. The approaches taken by the Cowboys in the 1970s and the Patriots in the 2000s are strikingly similar. Going back further, the Cleveland teams of the 1950s and Green Bay teams of the 1960s were built the same way.

History Repeats itself well said.


Free Agents are such a crap shoot. But like others have said you have to play to a players strength when you bring them in. NE is good because they use players to their strength and in the right situations. There is also another big factor in the equation, players have to choose your team. We could have put the same offer out there to Brandon Flowers and he still would have choose DAL. Same with finding a capable G in FA. The player has to choose the team. Unless you way over pay like the Bills did for M. Williams.


I am going to give them a pass on the SS because sometimes you have to see what you got, Mays and Sands.


WR should have been a priority but who was out there L. Robinson = A. Bryant situation. V. Jack would have been nice for sure.

RB is the big one in my opinion, again though who was out there? Selecting D. Martin in the Draft would have been big, but I know CB was kind of a must. Since we have Sims back I think Turbin would have been a nice pick in the third instead of Thompson, but we need serious speed and I wasn't a fan of L. Miller. If only we would have know about A. Morris in WAS, that is a down hill runner.

What is frustrating is when you have a guy like J. Joe, Moch, Shipley, Coffman, Simpson, Caldwell who you draft high and either they don't develop or move on.

[Original Bengal fan]

My key word is usually they do not work out there are exceptions but most do not it is a better game alround if teams deveope and keep their players and it is easy to spend other people's money.I believe if the bengals sign their own and continue to draft well they will be competitive for a long time

[bengals67]

I did not say that - at the moment - we are much better than Dallas.

I did say that I am glad we should have the funds to re-sign Geno and Andre and hopefully MJ who I think is very solid and getting better.

Then, start saving for AJ and Dalton both of whom will get huge contracts.

That money would not be available if we had signed the top free agents over the last couple of years.

Plus. lets add some playmakers at Safety , linebacker, running back or best players available through the next draft.

I think the WRs will work out with our current roster as the two guys drafted this year plus Whalen get more experience.