Will Someone tell Mike Brown, this is how it works!

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

and palmer would have shown up we not have the cap space for him and had to have cut him(that was the only cap space remaining ) &not have a 2nd 1st rounder this year and a 2nd 2nd rounder next year.

Nah...we carried over $17 million in cap space after Palmer was off the books and we absorbed the Palmer hits.

We had the Palmer space, plus much more.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by OSUfan

I guess you do not understand the strengths of the Law Firm and why he was brought here. Benson was terrible at getting tough yards and this offense has had serious problems inside the 10 yard line when trying to punch the ball in. The Law Firm is a touchdown scorer in the redzone and is a guy that is very good at getting tough yardage and extending drives. We have sured up an area where we were clearly deficient.

I agree that he is better at short-yardage than Benson, but Benson is better than BJGE in some areas too. Benson is better at breaking long runs than BJGE.

Overall they are EQUAL. Their yards per carry are equal. Neither really have a lot of pass receptions

Equal isn't bad because Benson was a top 15 back when he was on his game.

I don't get why saying BJGE is equal to Benson is so controversial.

Is BJGE a top 10 NFL back? Answer that. Top 15?

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Joseph says Bengals made “competitive offer,” but move was “no-brainer”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...as-no-brainer/

Yeah...the fact that the Bengals were negotiating with Joseph and he took slightly more money never gets brought up when people say we didn't want to invest $20 million in 2 starting CB's.

I guess we would have been willing to invest $19 million though.

Zimmer's reaction when Joseph left seems to illustrate that atleast some in the organization wanted and elite CB and a Good CB. (I won't call Hall elite.)

You would call Hall elite if we lost him as we did Joseph

Where I do agree with you is that we should have used the franchise tag on Joseph. He didn't leave us just due to money and the locker room situation certainly didn't help, but I think he just might have re-signed at the end of last season with the emergence of AJ and Andy. The danger of course would have been him doing a Carson, which would have made matters worse...roll of the dice time.

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by neek

Yes they did. With J-JO's offer that is about what the cost would have been, but J-Jo walked.

It wasn't just money.

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

This I agree 100% with....now, if either Scott steps it up, or we get a good change of pace back in the draft......the RB position will be set.....possibly for years to come. The only problem here is having people to block for them, and Jacob Bell is not the answer.

If Decastro isn't there first round I doubt we are going an early guard either. A WR really looks to be where they are going.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by neek

Yes they did. With J-JO's offer that is about what the cost would have been, but J-Jo walked.

J Jo was offered a contract, but Hall hadn't been extended at that point.

Hall was extended last year, but J Jo had walked.

There was not ever a time that the Bengals invested $20 million in the CB corp.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Waylander

You would call Hall elite if we lost him as we did Joseph

Where I do agree with you is that we should have used the franchise tag on Joseph. He didn't leave us just due to money and the locker room situation certainly didn't help, but I think he just might have re-signed at the end of last season with the emergence of AJ and Andy. The danger of course would have been him doing a Carson, which would have made matters worse...roll of the dice time.

Well, you can always tag a player and trade them too.

I've never felt Hall was elite. He is a good CB, but he's not a dominant shutdown CB nor is he a great man-to-man cover CB. Joseph is regarded by many as one of the top 2 free agent signings last season along with Sproles.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Waylander

If Decastro isn't there first round I doubt we are going an early guard either. A WR really looks to be where they are going.

I agree with that. Probably WR and CB.

Here is a wrench...what if Floyd is gone before 17? There is a real chance that could happen. Worst case, Floyd and DeCastro are both gone before 17.

Then what?

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Well, you can always tag a player and trade them too.

I've never felt Hall was elite. He is a good CB, but he's not a dominant shutdown CB nor is he a great man-to-man cover CB. Joseph is regarded by many as one of the top 2 free agent signings last season along with Sproles.

That's all down to opinion, which is fair enough, but there does seem to be a tendency to inflate those who leave us into supermen and downgrade those poor souls left behind
I rate both.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

So then why sign these guys if they are going to have to draft to fill the positions anways? Basically they were all bad signings because the Bengals didn't use free agency to fill ANY needs then.

This may sound familiar.

The Bengals build their team thru the draft and get depth in free agency.

Bell is an insurance policy.

The Bengals don't want to be pigeon-holed in drafting a specific position at a specific point in the draft. If the Bengals don't land DeCastro/Glenn in the first or a later round guard, then Bell can be a starting guard. Though not preferred, it is better than needing to reach during the draft.

The Bell signing is a Low Risk with possible High Reward.

There is still the 2013 draft and free agency to upgrade the guard position beyond Bell. Or if Bell excels in the Bengals system (Bobbie Williams) then they can extend Bell.

Let's say that the Bengals do get DeCastro/Glenn in the first, Bell provides excellent depth at only a 1 year commitment. Presumably, Bell would compete with Hudson for a back up role.

Again, the Bengals build their team thru the draft and get depth in free agency.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Joseph says Bengals made “competitive offer,” but move was “no-brainer”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...as-no-brainer/

Yeah...the fact that the Bengals were negotiating with Joseph and he took slightly more money never gets brought up when people say we didn't want to invest $20 million in 2 starting CB's.

I guess we would have been willing to invest $19 million though.

Zimmer's reaction when Joseph left seems to illustrate that atleast some in the organization wanted and elite CB and a Good CB. (I won't call Hall elite.)

Hall was on his original contract and wouldn't have been earning $10 million per year in 2011.

Had Joseph accepted the contract, I would believe that the Bengals probably would have low- balled Hall.

But, given the option between Hall or Joseph, I always got the impression that Zimmer wanted the more physical run-stopping CB in Hall over the superior down-field cover guy in Joseph.

Perhaps, this is why there was an additional year on the Texan deal and more guaranteed money.

Regardless, Joseph wanted out due to the Carson situation.

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I agree with that. Probably WR and CB.

Here is a wrench...what if Floyd is gone before 17? There is a real chance that could happen. Worst case, Floyd and DeCastro are both gone before 17.

Then what?

Panic and realise the Bengals are doomed to wander around the NFL as a tormented spirit, whispering if only.....

I don't know, I'm sure they actually do rate one or more of the WR's, perhaps they do take Glenn, I'm sure there will be options.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by mulligan

This may sound familiar.

The Bengals build their team thru the draft and get depth in free agency.

Bell is an insurance policy.

The Bengals don't want to be pigeon-holed in drafting a specific position at a specific point in the draft. If the Bengals don't land DeCastro/Glenn in the first or a later round guard, then Bell can be a starting guard. Though not preferred, it is better than needing to reach during the draft.

The Bell signing is a Low Risk with possible High Reward.

There is still the 2013 draft and free agency to upgrade the guard position beyond Bell. Or if Bell excels in the Bengals system (Bobbie Williams) then they can extend Bell.

Let's say that the Bengals do get DeCastro/Glenn in the first, Bell provides excellent depth at only a 1 year commitment. Presumably, Bell would compete with Hudson for a back up role.

Again, the Bengals build their team thru the draft and get depth in free agency.

IF we don't draft a Guard and Bell starts...we downgraded to Livings or Williams. However you want to look at it.

It's low risk/high reward as long as he is a backup. As soon as Bell becomes a starter for more than 2 games, it's high risk and has the chance to derail our season much like starting Livings did. I firmly believe that had we signed a good Guard in free agency, we would have won 11+ games.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Waylander

Panic and realise the Bengals are doomed to wander around the NFL as a tormented spirit, whispering if only.....

I don't know, I'm sure they actually do rate one or more of the WR's, perhaps they do take Glenn, I'm sure there will be options.

I'm thinking Barron/Kirkpatrick/Gilmore at 17 then.

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

IF we don't draft a Guard and Bell starts...we downgraded to Livings or Williams. However you want to look at it.

It's low risk/high reward as long as he is a backup. As soon as Bell becomes a starter for more than 2 games, it's high risk and has the chance to derail our season much like starting Livings did. I firmly believe that had we signed a good Guard in free agency, we would have won 11+ games.

I can't see us not taking a guard, it just depends which round. There are a few projected going in the later rounds who are also considered possible rookie starters.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by Waylander

If Decastro isn't there first round I doubt we are going an early guard either. A WR really looks to be where they are going.

That'd be odd, wouldn't it? That's Mikey for ya......likes the shiny new toy to play with in a house with a patchwork foundation that is crumbling (o-line) year after year after year after year.

.......it's like parking a Ferrari in front of your one room shack that has a satellite dish on the roof! LOL!

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I'm thinking Barron/Kirkpatrick/Gilmore at 17 then.

Probably, not convinced on Barron, but I'm certainly no expert. Just no Jenkins.I'm sick to death of experts projecting problem children to us, because we let personal isues slide. I'm a firm believer in building a good locker room to help build a good team and make people want to play for your franchise.

[Waylander]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

That'd be odd, wouldn't it? That's Mikey for ya......likes the shiny new toy to play with in a house with a patchwork foundation that is crumbling (o-line) year after year after year after year.

.......it's like parking a Ferrari in front of your one room shack that has a satellite dish on the roof! LOL!

If Decastro isn't there...well he isn't there

I think we have already established MB doesn't have a Ferrari so...

[Zombie Deadcat]

JJ also stated that he was willing to sign for a lesser amount with Cincy before going into his final year. The Bengals, however, waiting allowing JJ to test the market and get more money. Had Mike not been cheap, JJ would have never gotten to free agency. I do think, at that time, there were questions about keeping two high dollar corners and that the Bengals preferred Hall.

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Joseph says Bengals made “competitive offer,” but move was “no-brainer”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...as-no-brainer/

Yeah...the fact that the Bengals were negotiating with Joseph and he took slightly more money never gets brought up when people say we didn't want to invest $20 million in 2 starting CB's.

I guess we would have been willing to invest $19 million though.

Zimmer's reaction when Joseph left seems to illustrate that atleast some in the organization wanted and elite CB and a Good CB. (I won't call Hall elite.)

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I agree that he is better at short-yardage than Benson, but Benson is better than BJGE in some areas too. Benson is better at breaking long runs than BJGE.

Overall they are EQUAL. Their yards per carry are equal. Neither really have a lot of pass receptions

Equal isn't bad because Benson was a top 15 back when he was on his game.

I don't get why saying BJGE is equal to Benson is so controversial.

Is BJGE a top 10 NFL back? Answer that. Top 15?

I don't agree that BJGE and Benson are equal.

For the most part, Benson is a one-dimensional runner that cannot pass-block nor be a receiving threat. He fumbles. Me-First player. Has off-the-field issues. Gets suspended. Struggles to get into the end zone. Is 2 years older. Rejects a RBBC approach.

BJGE is an all-purpose running back that can pass-block, be a receiving threat, doesn't fumble (0), does a great job getting first downs (22.5% of carries) and scoring TDs (11), team player, no off-the-field issues, has never been suspended, accepts a RBBC approach, and is 2 years younger.

Even the nature of BJGE's contract displays that the Bengals FO feels that BJGE is an upgrade to Benson. 3 year deal worth $10 million.

Benson's longest deal was 2 years for a base of $2.5 and $2.5 in incentive. Right?

BJGE gets a first down 22.6% of the time (41 first downs in 181 carries). Benson gets a first down Benson gets a first down 19.4% of the times (53 first down in 273 carries).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...1/seasontype/2

I would need more detail to state definitively if Benson is better than BJGE at breaking long runs. Benson had 4 runs for more than 20 yards. BJGE had 0.

In the first game when Cleveland sold out, Benson broke a 39 yard run. He had a 28 yard run in the 3rd game against the Bills. Benson had a 33 yard run against Cleveland in the 11th game. Benson had a 42 yard run against the Texans in week 13.

But, we don't know how many runs BJGE had for between 15 - 19.

With only 0.2 yards per carry differientiating their average yards per carry, mathematically, Benson had many more rushes for minimal yardage verses BJGE.

When you add up the sum of all the parts, I believe that BJGE is clearly an upgrade over Benson.

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by Zombie Deadcat

JJ also stated that he was willing to sign for a lesser amount with Cincy before going into his final year. The Bengals, however, waiting allowing JJ to test the market and get more money. Had Mike not been cheap, JJ would have never gotten to free agency. I do think, at that time, there were questions about keeping two high dollar corners and that the Bengals preferred Hall.

at the time before his final season we were cap tight pretty much and he was returnig from injurey

[XenoMorph]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

Nah...we carried over $17 million in cap space after Palmer was off the books and we absorbed the Palmer hits.

We had the Palmer space, plus much more.

Palmer salary for 2011 was 14 mil if palmer reports one day he must be paid or cut.

that leaves 3 mil which was in case A SMith hit an esculator and injurie moneys

[Zombie Deadcat]

Originally Posted by BengalsFan024

at the time before his final season we were cap tight pretty much and he was returnig from injurey

I don't think there were issues with the cap, however, you are correct on the injury. So we rolled the dice and lost.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

IF we don't draft a Guard and Bell starts...we downgraded to Livings or Williams. However you want to look at it.

It's low risk/high reward as long as he is a backup. As soon as Bell becomes a starter for more than 2 games, it's high risk and has the chance to derail our season much like starting Livings did. I firmly believe that had we signed a good Guard in free agency, we would have won 11+ games.

Wharton is an upgrade to Livings.
Is Bell clearly a down grade from Williams or McGlynn? I am not so sure.

Truck 101 will have to give up the particulars.

Regardless, I can't see the Bengals not drafting a guard in this draft. I can see us drafting a guard anywhere from the 1st round to the 4th round.

So, is Livings/Williams/Boling/Hudson/McGlynn superior to Wharton/Boling/Hudson/Cook/Rookie. We will see what happens.