Will You Freak Out If MJ or Andre Walks?

[BengalsRocker]

Originally Posted by Samhain

Now that I've thought about this thread for a few days, i have a better answer:

I won't be surprised if one of the two walks. I'll be bummed to see MJ go, but Andre getting away would bother me. He's not my favorite player or anything, but I think the line is almost guaranteed to regress without him. They can draft a replacement, but most of the better tackles will be gone by the time they pick in round 1. That means we're either looking at developing a later pick or signing a FA. I have a feeling that this FA is a lot more likely to be Demetress Bell or Winston Justice than Ryan Clady or Sebastian Volmer. Either scenario would hurt this offense, maybe even a lot.

If MJ leaves, we stand a better chance of mitigating the loss. The d-line is a strength already and MJ isn't even the best of the bunch. Additionally, there are tons of first round caliber pass rushers in this draft. It's not unheard of for rookie d-linemen to be very good in their first year. The position seems to be one that doesn't have as big of a learning curve for high-level prospects.

I'd also prefer that they didn't just franchise Andre. He needs to be the right tackle here for years to come. His past issues with weight and attitude are a consideration, but I'd be willing to take the risk at this point. Outside of AJ Green and an aging Whitworth, this offense is nothing but a lot of question marks going forward. We need to lock up one one of the few players that is obviously one of the best in the league at his position. Pay the man.

Very good points. Nobody wants either to walk. Andre leaving would put us in a bind because we're not only trying to retain the better players(which are few)... but also add much needed depth across the line.

If Robinson last season wouldn't have helped in a pinch we would have been up a creek. I like others cringe at the thought of Roland being on the line(at all)and God forbid having to start him if someone went down. Boling did not look good down the stretch. Boling may improve as a starter but then there's Wharton... so who knows?? So many question marks on that line as a whole.

MJ is important but we could manage if he walks. Are the other guys as good? Maybe not... but they are not as bad to the standard as the O-line backups.

People can say all they want about Geathers... but he is solid and I'd welcome him gladly if his contract was resonable.

I just wish they would have extended Andre so we wouldn't be in this position right now.

[TheLeonardLeap]

This makes me laugh. Here's a little article for the people who said MJ costing $8m would be too much and to let him walk. This is also for the couple of people who wanted to bring in Cliff Avril instead of MJ.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-mario-money/

The guy turned down 3yr/$30m LAST year, and now he's looking for "somewhere near" Mario Williams money. This is also a really good example for people who said that MJ won't get big money because he's on a DL with Atkins.. well, Avril is on a DL with Suh and Kyle VDB, who aren't Atkins and Dunlap, but Avril and MJ's support on the DL matches up fairly well, they're roughly the same age, only difference is MJ has been a DE for 2 years and Avril has been a DE for 5.

Note that MJ's 11.5 is higher than Avril's career high.

Also note, that the Lions tagged Avril for his 5th season after an 11 sack season (sound familiar?) and now that he had another successful season, he wants more money than the Lions can afford and he'll be likely leaving in FA for another team. So tagging MJ isn't quite the answer some of you think it is.

[gardner30]

Bump.

I think I called this one right.

Does anyone feel differently now that it looks like the Bengals are very willing to wait Andre out on his contract demands?

My stance has always been that a Top RT is a luxury and the offense really won't miss a beat with Collins/Wharton/Draft Pick manning the Right side.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Bump.

I think I called this one right.

Does anyone feel differently now that it looks like the Bengals are very willing to wait Andre out on his contract demands?

My stance has always been that a Top RT is a luxury and the offense really won't miss a beat with Collins/Wharton/Draft Pick manning the Right side.

The line wasn't good with him. It was average to below average run blocking and average pass blocking.

He's worth about $5 million a year. The Bengals aren't going to eat crow and pay him more than the option they didn't pick up.

[68Firebird]

I would not freak out if either walks. Andre Smith is probably my least favorite Bengal of any significance all time.

Honestly, I think the follow scenario could work itself out...

- Bengals could very well draft a DE in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round this year. This would be because they value Dunlap > MJ or they take the cheaper option when they go to work out long term deals next year. I would 100% agree with this. Looking at upside I see way way way more potential for Carlos Dunlap long term. I have high doubts they will find value in the salary cap with that much money in the D-line if they try to get all three into long term deals.

- The Bengals will sign a veteran RT with a few years left or (more than likely) draft one instead of overpaying Andre. They then could choose to aggressively resign Atkins THIS year with more money upfront. This, I am fine with.

- If they sign the Safety they had a visit with (who isn't a bad player by any means, BTW, and would fit the Bengals really well) they would be free to do whatever they would like with DE or RT or both in the 1st or 2nd round. The draft this year is so so deep on both lines, it's perfect for the Bengals and where their 1st 3 picks are.

- Side note: I really like Barrett Jones of Alabama in the late 2nd or 3rd round as the Bengals Center of the future. He could back up all three spots this season and step in if someone goes down as he prepares for 2014. He can legitimately play all 5 spots on the line.

[Hammerstripes]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

The line wasn't good with him. It was average to below average run blocking and average pass blocking.

He's worth about $5 million a year. The Bengals aren't going to eat crow and pay him more than the option they didn't pick up.

The line will be even worse without him.

I wish he would just get a market value deal and be done with it. I think everyone in the world thinks he's worth 5-6 million per year.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by Hammerstripes

The line will be even worse without him.

I wish he would just get a market value deal and be done with it. I think everyone in the world thinks he's worth 5-6 million per year.

I don't know anymore. If he signs at this point, his attitude is going to be **** poor. His expectations of a huge contract have been shot down and he's going to be pretty disappointed. That's not the Bengals fault, as there's really no sense n overpaying him just b/c of his warped sense of reality.

I'd almost rather see one of the better vets come in and take the job. They may not be quite as good as Dre or have his high ceiling, but they'd be better than Collins, Wharton or Roland.

As far as the draft, beyond Fluker I'm not sure I'd replace Dre in 1. I'd rather just have a vet in place and spend the pick on something else. Also, if people dislike Andre's weight issue, they should take a look at Fluker. He looks like a beached whale. His reputation for having a decent work ethic may make up for that, but dude is what he is, and that's fat. Getting Watson in 2 might not be so bad, but his abilities in the run game aren't what Andre's are. He has the look of a long-armed left tackle.

They could do a lot worse than Clabo or Winston if it came down to it.

A motivated, happy Andre Smith is the ideal option to me, but I'm just not sure that's possible at this point. it would require the team to cave and overpay, but we all know that's not happening, and for good reason.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Samhain

I don't know anymore. If he signs at this point, his attitude is going to be **** poor. His expectations of a huge contract have been shot down and he's going to be pretty disappointed. That's not the Bengals fault, as there's really no sense n overpaying him just b/c of his warped sense of reality.

I'd almost rather see one of the better vets come in and take the job. They may not be quite as good as Dre or have his high ceiling, but they'd be better than Collins, Wharton or Roland.

As far as the draft, beyond Fluker I'm not sure I'd replace Dre in 1. I'd rather just have a vet in place and spend the pick on something else. Also, if people dislike Andre's weight issue, they should take a look at Fluker. He looks like a beached whale. His reputation for having a decent work ethic may make up for that, but dude is what he is, and that's fat. Getting Watson in 2 might not be so bad, but his abilities in the run game aren't what Andre's are. He has the look of a long-armed left tackle.

They could do a lot worse than Clabo or Winston if it came down to it.

A motivated, happy Andre Smith is the ideal option to me, but I'm just not sure that's possible at this point. it would require the team to cave and overpay, but we all know that's not happening, and for good reason.

If he thought he was worth $9 million a year, his attitude was questionable to begin with.

I'd say that he's given the Bengals about $12 million in performance over the past 4 years and his actual pay was over 3 times that.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

If he thought he was worth $9 million a year, his attitude was questionable to begin with.

I'd say that he's given the Bengals about $12 million in performance over the past 4 years and his actual pay was over 3 times that.

We have no idea what the team has offered him, but I tend to think the unreasonable expectations are coming from Andre and Dogra's side. How else could we interpret it? There's nobody to bid against. I've been lobbying for the guy to return as much as anyone, but this is getting ridiculous.

I think Andre is a really good player. I also think that he has the potential (physically) to be a great one. None of that means anything if his attitude is out of whack like his expectations for a contract seem to be.

Go out and get the cheaper proven vet. They'd spend less money than they would have on Andre and they wouldn't have to worry about an early draft pick coming in and being a liability.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Samhain

We have no idea what the team has offered him, but I tend to think the unreasonable expectations are coming from Andre and Dogra's side. How else could we interpret it? There's nobody to bid against. I've been lobbying for the guy to return as much as anyone, but this is getting ridiculous.

I think Andre is a really good player. I also think that he has the potential (physically) to be a great one. None of that means anything if his attitude is out of whack like his expectations for a contract seem to be.

I seriously doubt the Bengals offer more than the 2 year option that they didn't pick up. The Bengals can be stubborn at time and offerring more would be admitting a mistake.

That could be factoring in this too.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by THE PISTONS

I seriously doubt the Bengals offer more than the 2 year option that they didn't pick up. The Bengals can be stubborn at time and offerring more would be admitting a mistake.

That could be factoring in this too.

Oh, I don't doubt that. Doesn't really matter if Andre and his agent have nothing else on the table to use as leverage. Bad situation all around.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Samhain

I don't know anymore. If he signs at this point, his attitude is going to be **** poor. His expectations of a huge contract have been shot down and he's going to be pretty disappointed. That's not the Bengals fault, as there's really no sense n overpaying him just b/c of his warped sense of reality.

I'd almost rather see one of the better vets come in and take the job. They may not be quite as good as Dre or have his high ceiling, but they'd be better than Collins, Wharton or Roland.

As far as the draft, beyond Fluker I'm not sure I'd replace Dre in 1. I'd rather just have a vet in place and spend the pick on something else. Also, if people dislike Andre's weight issue, they should take a look at Fluker. He looks like a beached whale. His reputation for having a decent work ethic may make up for that, but dude is what he is, and that's fat. Getting Watson in 2 might not be so bad, but his abilities in the run game aren't what Andre's are. He has the look of a long-armed left tackle.

They could do a lot worse than Clabo or Winston if it came down to it.

A motivated, happy Andre Smith is the ideal option to me, but I'm just not sure that's possible at this point. it would require the team to cave and overpay, but we all know that's not happening, and for good reason.

What did Collins do that was so bad when he played RT?

I thought he played pretty well.

Maybe my memory is out of whack?

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

What did Collins do that was so bad when he played RT?

I thought he played pretty well.

Maybe my memory is out of whack?

He was a decent pass blocker, but not a great run blocker. They need a RT that can run block well. Without the right side, the run game would have been even worse last season.

Another thing to consider is this: If they use AC as a starter, that's a solid backup gone. Who fills in if Whit goes down? Roland? Wharton? A late round rookie? I may not love Collins as a first string starter, but he's a major asset as a backup. Two more steps back.

If this team really believed that Collins was an acceptable starter at RT, then they never would have drafted Smith in the first place. He was here the season before, and he saw some acton. They knew what they had then, they knew it wasn't good enough, and they got another guy.

[THE PISTONS]

Originally Posted by Samhain

He was a decent pass blocker, but not a great run blocker. They need a RT that can run block well. Without the right side, the run game would have been even worse last season.

Another thing to consider is this: If they use AC as a starter, that's a solid backup gone. Who fills in if Whit goes down? Roland? Wharton? A late round rookie? I may not love Collins as a first string starter, but he's a major asset as a backup. Two more steps back.

If this team really believed that Collins was an acceptable starter at RT, then they never would have drafted Smith in the first place. He was here the season before, and he saw some acton. They knew what they had then, they knew it wasn't good enough, and they got another guy.

The depth is a good point. We're thin at some spots on the offensive line and LB right now. RB has no quality depth unless it's Peerman. Same with Safety.

We are good on the Defensive Line and CB. WR could go either way.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Samhain

He was a decent pass blocker, but not a great run blocker. They need a RT that can run block well. Without the right side, the run game would have been even worse last season.

Another thing to consider is this: If they use AC as a starter, that's a solid backup gone. Who fills in if Whit goes down? Roland? Wharton? A late round rookie? I may not love Collins as a first string starter, but he's a major asset as a backup. Two more steps back.

If this team really believed that Collins was an acceptable starter at RT, then they never would have drafted Smith in the first place. He was here the season before, and he saw some acton. They knew what they had then, they knew it wasn't good enough, and they got another guy.

When he started the season in 2009 Benson ran for over 4.1 ypc in every game except for the 1st game of the season against Denver.

This included a 4.8 ypc against the Steelers and a blowout against the Bears (5.1).

Others were GB (4.9), CLE (4.1), BALT (4.4).

[gardner30]

They drafted Smith in '09 after AC started the last 6 or so games in 2008 and stunk pretty bad.

My point though was that he played pretty darn good in '09 when Smith was hurt.

That was the last time he got consistent playing time.

He got better.

Wharton played LT/RT/G in Carolina and could fill the swing role decent enough.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

They drafted Smith in '09 after AC started the last 6 or so games in 2008 and stunk pretty bad.

My point though was that he played pretty darn good in '09 when Smith was hurt.

That was the last time he got consistent playing time.

He got better.

Wharton played LT/RT/G in Carolina and could fill the swing role decent enough.

They can stand whoever they want over there and pretend that everything's going to be okay. Fact is that the odds favor a drop off with either player you mentioned. Neither will be as good as Andre.

That's an unacceptable situation for a team that wants to pass itself of as a contender for a division title, much less a championship.

Do you really believe that this team will be better if we have the same o-line minus Andre plus one of those two? Really? Do you honestly think it will even be on the level it was last season? You don't get better by replacing talented guys with backups and retreads.

If they go with Wharton or Collins, they'd better improve bigtime in the passing game, b/c they'll be leaning on it in a big way. Not to say that can't happen, but I don't see the run game being too effective with that plan.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Samhain

They can stand whoever they want over there and pretend that everything's going to be okay. Fact is that the odds favor a drop off with either player you mentioned. Neither will be as good as Andre.

That's an unacceptable situation for a team that wants to pass itself of as a contender for a division title, much less a championship.

Do you really believe that this team will be better if we have the same o-line minus Andre plus one of those two? Really? Do you honestly think it will even be on the level it was last season? You don't get better by replacing talented guys with backups and retreads.

If they go with Wharton or Collins, they'd better improve bigtime in the passing game, b/c they'll be leaning on it in a big way. Not to say that can't happen, but I don't see the run game being too effective with that plan.

I'm trying to delude myself into thinking they will be fine because I have a feeling either AC or Wharton will be the starting RT in 2013.

It doesn't look like Smith is willing to take the Bengals offer, which is probably a fair one, and he might go elsewhere just out of spite.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by gardner30

I'm trying to delude myself into thinking they will be fine because I have a feeling either AC or Wharton will be the starting RT in 2013.

It doesn't look like Smith is willing to take the Bengals offer, which is probably a fair one, and he might go elsewhere just out of spite.

Yeah, man I understand. I'm sure I'll talk myself into thinking it's just great, too if it goes down that way. Hell, I've almost talked myself into being okay spending a high pick on a RT when I thought surely they'd be able to get a nice upgrade somewhere else.

I really don't see why they aren't bringing in a vet or two for a visit. Maybe they see them as bad fits. Who knows. What I do know is that they budgeted to pay a RT some significant money this offseason. That statement isn't based off of pie in the sky "they need to spend 55 million right now!" numbers. That's based off of setting money aside for extensions, paying injury settlements, and budgeting for rookies numbers. It was baked into the cake. I don't see why they can't get a proven vet to do the job. They could certainly afford it and remain on target with what they want to spend.

[OSUfan]

Originally Posted by gardner30

These are not going to be easy negotiations.

Both players have questions, MJ consistency and is he a 1 year wonder, Andre health/weight.

Both players will be trying to get "Elite" money, MJ will ask for a Charles Johnson type contract (6 yrs 72 mil), Andre will want at least David Stewart money (7 yrs 38 mil) but will be watching to see what Sebatian Vollmer gets.

I expect the Bengals have numbers for both and, knowing Katie and MB, won't budge too much from those numbers (cap space be-damned).

I would be more upset if they let MJ sign with another team than Andre.

Andre is the better player (right now) but the draft and Free Agency is deep in the Tackle position this year.

I think the team will tag MJ to see if he can repeat his season and roll the dice with Andre knowing that a replacement for him is already on the team in Collins/Wharton or can be obtained easier in the draft/Free Agency than a good DE.

What do you think will happen and how will you react?

I believe they will extend MJ prior to the July 15th deadline. I think MJ wants to be here and they want him to be here. I think a fair deal will be reached by both sides and that MJ understands the money that will be involved in keeping this young core together. MJ is a class act and will work with the FO to get a deal done.

Not sure of the consistency issues you speak of with MJ. He has done everything this team has asked of him even the attempted transition to LB. Now that he has been put in place at DE only he has improved with each season. He gives 100% on each and every down and works in the offseason to improve himself.

He understood the wear and tear on his body being lighter and he made it a point in the offseason to add bulk to his frame in a responsible manner in which he could keep the bulk on. He is a pro which makes him the better player right now than Andre.

Andre.....I do not care either way. If he is brought back I hope the contract is nothing more than 5-6 mil with incentives that could get it to about 6.5. Those incentives should include offseason participation and conditioning.

[mulligan]

Originally Posted by Samhain

He was a decent pass blocker, but not a great run blocker. They need a RT that can run block well. Without the right side, the run game would have been even worse last season.

Another thing to consider is this: If they use AC as a starter, that's a solid backup gone. Who fills in if Whit goes down? Roland? Wharton? A late round rookie? I may not love Collins as a first string starter, but he's a major asset as a backup. Two more steps back.

If this team really believed that Collins was an acceptable starter at RT, then they never would have drafted Smith in the first place. He was here the season before, and he saw some acton. They knew what they had then, they knew it wasn't good enough, and they got another guy.

You are comparing a 2008 rookie 4th rounder (Collins) to a top 10 pick in the 2009 NFL draft.

Of course, the top 10 pick (Andre Smith) should be more polished and pro-ready than a 4th round player (Colllins).

But, as time goes on, it is possible for the raw-player (Collins) to become a decent NFL player.

Does Smith have a higher ceiling than Collins? Absolutely.
But does Smith have a great tendency to gain weight and havee a questionable work ethic? Absolutely.

[degolfisfun]

I will NOT be upset if either doesn't sign a longterm contract IF we sign a comparable FA - not draft - replacement. As I've said for a month now, our potential biggest issue is the $11 M ONE YEAR deal we laid on MJ. If we don't get a longterm contract here and SOON, we have lost the farm. The tie-up of $11M - about $4M more than his value - and the lost opportunity to sign a comparable alternative. Even though Hobson and the Bengals swear MJ will sign a longterm deal here in the next month or so, I really question whether that is going to happen. I can easily see this being $11 M for one year and then he's gone. What a potential disaster .... There were RBs and Safeties out that we could have signed 2 very, very good ones for $11M.

Andre is less of an issue because we have no invested value here. My biggest rub here is why haven't we signed one of the comparable $6M alternatives - Vollmer would have been just fine at $5-6M - and just moved on. Why are we still screwing with this?

No, No. No draft choice replacements for Andre. We have other priority needs with the first 3-4 picks. After that it is too big of downgrade to consider..

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by mulligan

You are comparing a 2008 rookie 4th rounder (Collins) to a top 10 pick in the 2009 NFL draft.

Of course, the top 10 pick (Andre Smith) should be more polished and pro-ready than a 4th round player (Colllins).

But, as time goes on, it is possible for the raw-player (Collins) to become a decent NFL player.

Does Smith have a higher ceiling than Collins? Absolutely.
But does Smith have a great tendency to gain weight and havee a questionable work ethic? Absolutely.

So Collins became a player the caliber of Andre Smith by sitting on the bench for the vast majority of the last 3 years? That would be nice, but I wouldn't be willing to bank on it happening that way.

The team knew that Collins may improve over time as well. They knew he was raw and needed to get work in. Still, they drafted Smith. Because Smith was a better player.

I don't believe for a second that this team is dumb enough to go into the season with Anthony Collins as a starter, barring injury of course. They will draft a replacement for Andre, or spend the money they'd offered to him on a veteran (I'd prefer this route).

If they do indeed start Collins, then we can revisit these conversations during the regular season when it plays out on the field. If Collins goes in and looks like Willie Andreson reborn, then I'll give you props. If he goes out there and looks like what he his, ie a career backup forced into duty due to atrition and a failure to replace a big loss with a comparable talent, then I'll be sure to let you know. In the odd event that he starts, that is. I'm sure I won't be the only one here to point him out when it comes to pass.

[Luvnit2]

Originally Posted by Samhain

So Collins became a player the caliber of Andre Smith by sitting on the bench for the vast majority of the last 3 years? That would be nice, but I wouldn't be willing to bank on it happening that way.

The team knew that Collins may improve over time as well. They knew he was raw and needed to get work in. Still, they drafted Smith. Because Smith was a better player.

I don't believe for a second that this team is dumb enough to go into the season with Anthony Collins as a starter, barring injury of course. They will draft a replacement for Andre, or spend the money they'd offered to him on a veteran (I'd prefer this route).

If they do indeed start Collins, then we can revisit these conversations during the regular season when it plays out on the field. If Collins goes in and looks like Willie Andreson reborn, then I'll give you props. If he goes out there and looks like what he his, ie a career backup forced into duty due to atrition and a failure to replace a big loss with a comparable talent, then I'll be sure to let you know. In the odd event that he starts, that is. I'm sure I won't be the only one here to point him out when it comes to pass.

It does happen more than we realize.

One example close to home is James Harrison. It took him a long time to start and even get off the practice squad and then he becomes an all pro.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by Luvnit2

It does happen more than we realize.

One example close to home is James Harrison. It took him a long time to start and even get off the practice squad and then he becomes an all pro.

Yes, but is this the exception or the rule? You're hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with that approach. it's not impossible, but it is unlikely.

There's zero reason not to have a quality veteran starter at RT this year, barring injury, of course. They have the money and there are a half dozen of these guys out there looking for work, likely all of them better than a career backup and likely all of them available at a bargain price.

Defaulting to a fallback option is unacceptable if you want to improve this offense.