Save Cook for Philly

[McC]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Brad I did acknowledge Nightwatchs post and responded to it you must have overlooked it. I understand, based on the interpretation of the highlight plays, that your not very perceptive.

You guys do realize that Robinson started most of his games against some pretty bad defenses right? 2 of those teams are picking in the top 5 of the draft. Also BJGE had a healthy ankle.

You guys have convinced me that this team needs an ALL-PRO Center. They should draft one with the 1st Rd pick. Forget the guys who can score TDs or the guys that can make game changing plays on Defense. We don't need a JJ Watt or a Ray Rice. We need a Nick Mangold to get to the SuperBowl!

We will see what the coaches and FO do about the Center position in the offseason, I'm betting nothing.

You REALLY seem to be taking the whole Cook thing to heart. If you didn't see what everyone else saw, that's on you. And yes, an All-Pro C would do infinitely more for the offense than more skill players. Andy can't throw well from his ***.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

Thats a leap youre making on your own. I simply pointed out the obvious...the O line was better when Robinson was playing. Anyone who knows about football knows that the O line needs to "jell". They need to reach a comfort level with each other, "know" what the guy next to them will do, communicate well, etc. The O line had settled in well with Robinson. Then they disrupt that flow by taking out the key signal caller on the line.

My problem wasnt with Cook. Nor was my observation a statement against Cook. I just think the coaches should not have "fixed" something that wasnt broken at the time. They could have avoided the whole "dont lose your starting job to injury" debate by saying that since Robinson was doing well that gave them the luxury of bringing Cook back slowly as he recovered. That way, everyone would have saved face.

Disrupting a successful O line was a poor coaching decision. Im sure they thought it would get better after a couple games as Cook settled back in. But after three games of poor O line play, they should have gone back to Robinson in the final game to get him back in the flow. Then allowed Robinson to play the playoff game.

Lets put the "Bengals ran the ball better with Robinson in there" statement to the test.

Games Robinson played with rushing breakdown:

1st Steelers game Robinson took over for injured Faine in the 2nd Half.

Pit (2nd ranked run D) - BJGE had 18 carries 69 yrds 3.8 avg, BJGE longest runs of 12 & 14 yrds came in the 1st Qtr when Faine was in.

Den (3rd) - 17-56 3.3

NYG (25th) - 15-50 3.3

KC (27th) - 25-101 4.0

Oak (18th) - 19-129 6.8

SD (6th) - 25-118 4.7

DAL (21st) Rotated - 12-89 7.4

Phi (22nd) Rotated - 25-106 4.2

Cooks 1st start was against the Steelers and aslo BJGE injured his ankle.

Pit (2nd) - 15-14 0.7

Bal (20th) - BJGE did not play

Hou (7th) - 11-63 5.7

So this data tells me that the line as a whole figured something out in the KC game and it carried over the rest of the season no matter who the Center was (except against the elite run D of the Steelers or when backup RBs were used).

When Cook rotated in with Robinson they had success running the football. They had success running the football in the playoff game.

Pit doesn't allow anyone to run well on them and shut down the run game against both Centers (as you know, Pit does this to every team). Baltimore game shouldn't count because backups were running the ball.

It doesn't matter what Center is in there between Cook and Robinson, that isn't my debate.

I'm saying that the Bengals can win with either one starting.

Neither is that bad.

If they draft a Center high or pay big money for one in free agency they would be wasting picks/money for other position needs that can effect the game more.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by McC

You REALLY seem to be taking the whole Cook thing to heart. If you didn't see what everyone else saw, that's on you. And yes, an All-Pro C would do infinitely more for the offense than more skill players. Andy can't throw well from his ***.

It seemed to me the Tackles were struggling more than the interior sans the Texans game.

Remember Philly and Denver? The 2nd Pit game resulted in multiple sacks from both G positions as well as from LT and C (Polomalu disguised blitz from over Center)

Connor Barwin didn't strip sack Dalton rushing in from the Center in the playoff game.

Yes Watt had a great game but that had to do with the Guards just as much as the Center and he is probably the DPOY.

I would think a better blocking scheme should have been used for Watt.

Something like the Patriots coaches did.

[tlotharw]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Brad I did acknowledge Nightwatchs post and responded to it you must have overlooked it. I understand, based on the interpretation of the highlight plays, that your not very perceptive.

You guys do realize that Robinson started most of his games against some pretty bad defenses right? 2 of those teams are picking in the top 5 of the draft. Also BJGE had a healthy ankle.

You guys have convinced me that this team needs an ALL-PRO Center. They should draft one with the 1st Rd pick. Forget the guys who can score TDs or the guys that can make game changing plays on Defense. We don't need a JJ Watt or a Ray Rice. We need a Nick Mangold to get to the SuperBowl!

We will see what the coaches and FO do about the Center position in the offseason, I'm betting nothing.

I agree. The Center position is the second most important spot on the offense. Paul Brown knew it; starting his team with the first pick, center Bob Johnson. It was not happenstance that the only consecutive Outland Trophy winner, Dave Rimington anchored the great offensive line for the teams in the mid-80's.

Unfortunately, I also agree with you about the coaching staff. They completely screwed up the line that was playing practically lights-out with Robinson at center as they desperately worked to get Cook back in the line up. So, I am sure they will do nothing but start Cook next year.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by tlotharw

I agree. The Center position is the second most important spot on the offense. Paul Brown knew it; starting his team with the first pick, center Bob Johnson. It was not happenstance that the only consecutive Outland Trophy winner, Dave Rimington anchored the great offensive line for the teams in the mid-80's.

Unfortunately, I also agree with you about the coaching staff. They completely screwed up the line that was playing practically lights-out with Robinson at center as they desperately worked to get Cook back in the line up. So, I am sure they will do nothing but start Cook next year.

The game has changed.

Not many teams consider the Center as a corner piece of their o-line.

The LT position has taken that.

The last 10 years only a hand full of Centers were drafted in the 1st Rd.

It just isn't valued as it once was.

[tlotharw]

Originally Posted by gardner30

The game has changed.

Not many teams consider the Center as a corner piece of their o-line.

The LT position has taken that.

The last 10 years only a hand full of Centers were drafted in the 1st Rd.

It just isn't valued as it once was.

You and the Bengals were on the same page the last part of the season.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by gardner30

So this data tells me that the line as a whole figured something out in the KC game and it carried over the rest of the season no matter who the Center was (except against the elite run D of the Steelers or when backup RBs were used).

You can choose which stats you want to use to bolster just about any point. YPC doesnt tell the story because it is an average. For example, in the playoff game BJGE averaged about 5.6 YPC. But the average was high because he had so few carries. If you look at 100 yd games, that's a better indicator of whether or not a team was running the ball well. The O line has to be blocking well to get a back over 100 yds. Whereas if you look at YPC a RB can have 5 carries, but he broke one for a long gain.....upping his YPC. So the O line could have been doing a lousy job, but opened up one good hole. But to get to 100 yds. The o line had to block well for the whole game.

Same thing with sacks given up. So if you look at 100 yd games and how many sacks the O line gave up, then they were definitely playing better as a unit with Robinson at C.

It doesn't matter what Center is in there between Cook and Robinson, that isn't my debate.

Yeah...it kinda does.

I'm saying that the Bengals can win with either one starting.

Neither is that bad.

I agree with that. But that only applies if one starts from the beginning. Rotating them or switching starters just before playoffs doesnt work. The Bengals wont have success doing that.

[McC]

Cook--a little better than crap, which is what he followed. Robinson--a little better than that. Neither are the answer. Get a real C and the change will be significant and completely worth the investment.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

You can choose which stats you want to use to bolster just about any point. YPC doesnt tell the story because it is an average. For example, in the playoff game BJGE averaged about 5.6 YPC. But the average was high because he had so few carries. If you look at 100 yd games, that's a better indicator of whether or not a team was running the ball well. The O line has to be blocking well to get a back over 100 yds. Whereas if you look at YPC a RB can have 5 carries, but he broke one for a long gain.....upping his YPC. So the O line could have been doing a lousy job, but opened up one good hole. But to get to 100 yds. The o line had to block well for the whole game.

Same thing with sacks given up. So if you look at 100 yd games and how many sacks the O line gave up, then they were definitely playing better as a unit with Robinson at C.



Yeah...it kinda does.



I agree with that. But that only applies if one starts from the beginning. Rotating them or switching starters just before playoffs doesnt work. The Bengals wont have success doing that.

Generally, you need volume to get 100 yard games.

So your saying if the Bengals would have given BJGE more carries against the Texans he wouldn't of gotten 100 yrds because?

The Patriots Stevan Ridley averaged 4.4 ypc but only had four 100 yrd games

I guess he and the Patriots running game is terrible.

Its probably because Dan Connelly is an average Center.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Generally, you need volume to get 100 yard games.

Thats the point. The running game is working, so you keep feeding the RB the ball. Even though his YPC can avg out lower, it is still a better indicator of blocking success. Like I said You can have a high avg YPC from one or two good blocks, but that doesnt necessarily mean the O line was blocking well the majority of the game...a high total rushing yds does.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

Thats the point. The running game is working, so you keep feeding the RB the ball. Even though his YPC can avg out lower, it is still a better indicator of blocking success. Like I said You can have a high avg YPC from one or two good blocks, but that doesnt necessarily mean the O line was blocking well the majority of the game...a high total rushing yds does.

So, by your logic, the potent Patriots rushing attack was only good 4 games this year.

Gotcha

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by gardner30

So, by your logic, the potent Patriots rushing attack was only good 4 games this year.

Gotcha

Glad you finally agree.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

Glad you finally agree.

Pretty weak considering the Patriots were 7th in the league in rushing offense.

With, I might add, the 33rd ranked Center from last year, according to PFF, starting for them.

I don't have the rankings for 2012 but I doubt Connelly improved THAT much from last year.

But hey, the offense lives and dies by the Center according to you guys.

[bradfritz21]

Originally Posted by gardner30

The game has changed.

Not many teams consider the Center as a corner piece of their o-line.

The LT position has taken that.

The last 10 years only a hand full of Centers were drafted in the 1st Rd.

It just isn't valued as it once was.

Left tackle is important, but the center is the cornerstone of the line. Not many centers are taken in the first round, but that's just because left tackle is a more skilled position and it's harder to find a good one.

The center makes the calls at the line and gets things going, and if he can't handle his man, it disrupts the entire play because the defender can go either way and has the best chance to make a play on the ball. Especially in our division that has monster nose tackles because they need to be moved to open holes or controlled because they're the closest pass rushers to the quarterback.

The center is still as important as it always has been because it's the focal point of the offensive line.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by bradfritz21

Left tackle is important, but the center is the cornerstone of the line. Not many centers are taken in the first round, but that's just because left tackle is a more skilled position and it's harder to find a good one.

The center makes the calls at the line and gets things going, and if he can't handle his man, it disrupts the entire play because the defender can go either way and has the best chance to make a play on the ball. Especially in our division that has monster nose tackles because they need to be moved to open holes or controlled because they're the closest pass rushers to the quarterback.

The center is still as important as it always has been because it's the focal point of the offensive line.

Unless the Center is a MAJOR glaring weakness, Ghiuchec like if you will, anything higher than a 3rd Rd pick is simply too high for a pure Center.

There are just too many other premium positions to use your high picks on.

IMO, the Center is not that much of a weakness on this team and with the depth at Guard the Bengals should have with the return of Wharton, there just isn't a reason to take an interior lineman high like so many people want to do on this board.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Originally Posted by gardner30

The game has changed.

Not many teams consider the Center as a corner piece of their o-line.

The LT position has taken that.

The last 10 years only a hand full of Centers were drafted in the 1st Rd.

It just isn't valued as it once was.

What a lame statement, you should know the reason why C's haven't been drafted high prior to the last few years. Prior to the most current CBA it was not worth grabbing a starting C in the first round due to the absurd contracts players would get. With the new wage scale, I'm sure we're going to see more of them drafted in the first round along with typically other lower paying positions on NFL teams.

Case in point, last year the Bengals grabbed a G in the first, when was the last time they did that?

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by gardner30

Pretty weak considering the Patriots were 7th in the league in rushing offense.

With, I might add, the 33rd ranked Center from last year, according to PFF, starting for them.

I don't have the rankings for 2012 but I doubt Connelly improved THAT much from last year.

But hey, the offense lives and dies by the Center according to you guys.

No, the offense lives and dies by the execution of the unit as a team. The subunit of the O line has a signal caller caller called the center. But hey, according to you the Bengals can plug anyone in there at anytime of the season and the unit will function just as efficiently.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

No, the offense lives and dies by the execution of the unit as a team. The subunit of the O line has a signal caller caller called the center. But hey, according to you the Bengals can plug anyone in there at anytime of the season and the unit will function just as efficiently.

No just Cook or Robinson.

Both are good enough to win with.

I'm sure the Bengals will agree.

If they don't win the Super Bowl next year it won't be because Cook or Robinson is the starting Center.

It will be because they failed to get another difference maker in the draft or Free Agency.

[goalpost]

Coming off the days of GutCheck. Cook seemed like a reasonable sign, even though he was just adequate. But we can look at better options now. Keep Robinson and add a reasonably high draft choice with a higher ceiling seems to be the way to go.

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Mike M (the other one)

What a lame statement, you should know the reason why C's haven't been drafted high prior to the last few years. Prior to the most current CBA it was not worth grabbing a starting C in the first round due to the absurd contracts players would get. With the new wage scale, I'm sure we're going to see more of them drafted in the first round along with typically other lower paying positions on NFL teams.

Case in point, last year the Bengals grabbed a G in the first, when was the last time they did that?

If the Center was such an important position then teams wouldn't worry about paying 1st Rd money to them.

They didn't seemed concerned about paying 1st Rd Tackles in the old wage scale.

I think some of you guys spent too much time reading Hobsons "They lost Richie Braham so now they stink" articles. Lol.

[Beaker]

Originally Posted by gardner30

No just Cook or Robinson.

Both are good enough to win with.

I'm sure the Bengals will agree.

If they don't win the Super Bowl next year it won't be because Cook or Robinson is the starting Center.

It will be because they failed to get another difference maker in the draft or Free Agency.

And I told you I agree...as long as you plug one in from the beginning and dont switch it up with 4 games left or platoon them. But you fail to acknoledge that the O line did not perform as well over the last 4 games when they did that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Originally Posted by gardner30

If the Center was such an important position then teams wouldn't worry about paying 1st Rd money to them.

They didn't seemed concerned about paying 1st Rd Tackles in the old wage scale.

I think some of you guys spent too much time reading Hobsons "They lost Richie Braham so now they stink" articles. Lol.

The market dictates the salary by position. Most centers make about 2 mil per year, where as Tackles make substiantially more. So prior to the CBA it did not make good business sense to take a Center high, when you're going to be stuck paying them more than the market value for proven All Pro's. This is why they were typically drafted at the end of round 1 and in the later rounds.

I have nothing against Cook other than I think they should've left Robinson in there to finish out the season. IF BPA = Center in the draft then I'm not opposed to upgrading. However, We should all know by now how the ownership/coach work, so we most likely will not get a better Center in any of the next few drafts. I view LB as the spot that needs the most attention in the upcoming draft.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Mike M (the other one)

The market dictates the salary by position. Most centers make about 2 mil per year, where as Tackles make substiantially more. So prior to the CBA it did not make good business sense to take a Center high, when you're going to be stuck paying them more than the market value for proven All Pro's. This is why they were typically drafted at the end of round 1 and in the later rounds.

I have nothing against Cook other than I think they should've left Robinson in there to finish out the season. IF BPA = Center in the draft then I'm not opposed to upgrading. However, We should all know by now how the ownership/coach work, so we most likely will not get a better Center in any of the next few drafts. I view LB as the spot that needs the most attention in the upcoming draft.

You're probably right, but before last year, we had never drafted a G in the 1st, so...

[gardner30]

Originally Posted by Beaker

And I told you I agree...as long as you plug one in from the beginning and dont switch it up with 4 games left or platoon them. But you fail to acknoledge that the O line did not perform as well over the last 4 games when they did that.

I don't think they did.

They averaged 4.5 ypc in the running game the 4 games that Cook started or rotated with BJGE running the football.

They ran the ball the best when they were platooning, 7.4 ypc and 4.2 ypc.

If you want to talk sacks, Cook gave up 2 in the last 4 games, less than Smith and Boling, same as Zeitler and one more than Whit.

I don't have the info on the pressures he gave up but I don't recall him giving up more pressure than anyone else.

What I'm saying is that the line stunk overall in pass pro down the stretch but nothing really changed run blocking wise.

Everyone seemed to struggle, not just Cook.