Dear Mike Brown

[CINwillWIN]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

Ah, no, actually you don't. The city does not matter, the FRANCHISE does. Do the teams start over without coaches, players, etc. when they move? No, they don't. Who cares what the fans think? Official records are official records.

Yeah, the FANS in Arizona, have never tasted a championship, but the organization HAS.

How can the Cleveland Browns claim what was done in their city by a franchise that has since left? They can't, those titles belong to the Baltimore Ravens, as they WERE the Cleveland Browns that won those games.

If the Packers moved to another city, and Green Bay gets a new team...is Green Bay still known as "title town"?

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Huh, I went to the Cardinals home page, and there, lo and behold, are stats from the Chicago, St. Louis, and Arizona days....who'd a thunk it?

http://www.azcardinals.com/history/a...e-results.html

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by CINwillWIN

If the Packers moved to another city, and Green Bay gets a new team...is Green Bay still known as "title town"?

Interesting.....if they moved, would they have to drop all of their Lombardi trophies and NFL Championships and leave them in Green Bay?

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

Ah, no, actually you don't. The city does not matter, the FRANCHISE does. Do the teams start over without coaches, players, etc. when they move? No, they don't. Who cares what the fans think? Official records are official records.

Yeah, the FANS in Arizona, have never tasted a championship, but the organization HAS.

How can the Cleveland Browns claim what was done in their city by a franchise that has since left? They can't, those titles belong to the Baltimore Ravens, as they WERE the Cleveland Browns that won those games.

So you don't care about fans and cities.....only franchises......If the Reds would move to another city, to you, the new city lays claim to everything the Reds ever did as if it never happened in Cincinnati........On this, we will agree to disagree......to me, thats rewritting history, very Orwellian.

But for the heck of it, I'll give you the Chicago Cardinals which still leaves 10 out of 32 teams that have never won it all....It's not just Mike Brown.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

1947 (9-3, NFL Champion)
Head Coach Jimmy Conzelman
Sept. 28 Detroit W 45-21
Oct. 5 Chicago Bears W 31-7
Oct. 12 At Green Bay W 14-10
Oct. 19 At L.A. Rams L 7-27
Oct. 26 Boston Yankees W 27-7
Nov. 2 L.A. Rams W 17-10
Nov. 9 At Detroit W 17-7
Nov. 16 Green Bay W 21-20
Nov. 23 At Washington L 21-45
Nov. 30 At N.Y. Giants L 31-35
Dec. 7 At Philadelphia W 45-21
Dec. 14 At Chicago Bears W 30-21
Home: 5-0. Away: 4-3
NFL Championship Game, Comiskey Park, Chicago
Dec. 28 Philadelphia W 28-21
(Postseason 1-0)


Taken from...............




You guessed it:


http://www.azcardinals.com/history/a...e-results.html

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by kevin

So you don't care about fans and cities.....only franchises......If the Reds would move to another city, to you, the new city lays claim to everything the Reds ever did as if it never happened in Cincinnati........On this, we will agree to disagree......to me, thats rewritting history, very Owellian.

LOL....look, I like my city's team. That said, what you are saying is false, and you are arguing it to just keep from being wrong. The Cardinals franchise has, indeed, won two NFL Championships. By your rationale, the Raiders should have vacated their trophies the day they left Oakland for LA. Do you care to wager if Art Modell left his NFL Championship trophies in Cleveland, or are they in Baltimore?

I'm not saying the cities lay claim to anything, but if the franchise is continually operated, but in different cities, then that organization is the outright owners of those titles. IF the Cards had disbanded, THEN moved to St. Louis, you may have a point, but they didn't. In fact, they are one of the longest continually operated NFL franchises in league history, much as our beloved Reds.

Fan opinion means little in the realm of official records and fact. That's all that was meant.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

"The Cardinals were founded in 1898, and are the oldest continuously run professional American football club in the United States.[1] The team was established in Chicago in 1898 and was a charter member of the NFL in 1920. Along with the Chicago Bears, the club is one of two NFL charter member franchises still in operation since the league's founding. (The Green Bay Packers were an independent team until they joined the NFL in 1921)."

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Actually, the Brownies DID keep all of their records, it was negotiated in the deal when Modell left.....interesting.

"Additionally, the agreement stipulated that the Browns' name, colors, uniform design and franchise records would remain in Cleveland. The franchise history includes Browns club records and connections with Pro Football Hall of Fame players. Modell's Baltimore team, while retaining all current player contracts, would, for purposes of team history, appear as an expansion team, a "new franchise.""

[kevin]

and again.....be it 11 teams or only 10 if you count the Chicago Cardinals of yesteryear as Arizona.....at this time about a third of the NFL has never won it all......So it isn't just Mike Brown....winning it all must take a take a heck of a team and alot of luck. Other teams came close this year, maybe missing out by a play of two of a few inches.....

I hope our Bengals someday have the team and also the bounces and the breaks go our way.

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by kevin

and again.....be it 11 teams or only 10 if you count the Chicago Cardinals of yesteryear.....at this time about a third of the NFL has never won it all......So it isn't just Mike Brown....winning it all must take a take a heck of a team and alot of luck. Other teams came close this year, maybe missing out by a play of two of a few inches.....

.....agreed, the only reason I knew that obscure stat is because I've had this discussion before in a "worst owner in sports" thread...lol. I guess the only teams to never play in a Championship game would be the Falcons, Titans/Oilers, Jaguars, and Texans. Theoretically, I wouldn't consider the current Brownies to be NFL Champions, but that's what they negotiated it appears.

The Vikings are an intriguing anomaly. They are credited with winning the 1969 NFL Championship, but they lost the Super Bowl, before the league merger.....not sure what to make of that.

We do have the longest AFC/NFC Championship game drought....

[Wyche'sWarrior]

Originally Posted by kevin

and again.....be it 11 teams or only 10 if you count the Chicago Cardinals of yesteryear as Arizona.....at this time about a third of the NFL has never won it all......So it isn't just Mike Brown....winning it all must take a take a heck of a team and alot of luck. Other teams came close this year, maybe missing out by a play of two of a few inches.....

I hope our Bengals someday have the team and also the bounces and the breaks go our way.

You and me both....what does anger me, is I felt we were building something special with Sam Wyche.....then Mike fires him and sends us into the abyss. All Sammie wanted was to "shop for the groceries".....and judging by what Mike did for years, he should have been given the entire football operations!

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Wyche'sWarrior

.....agreed, the only reason I knew that obscure stat is because I've had this discussion before in a "worst owner in sports" thread...lol. I guess the only teams to never play in a Championship game would be the Falcons, Titans/Oilers, Jaguars, and Texans. Theoretically, I wouldn't consider the current Brownies to be NFL Champions, but that's what they negotiated it appears.

The Vikings are an intriguing anomaly. They are credited with winning the 1969 NFL Championship, but they lost the Super Bowl, before the league merger.....not sure what to make of that.

We do have the longest AFC/NFC Championship game drought....

Well, the problem with the 68 Colts and the 69 Vikings is that they lost their last game, unlike true champions. On those years the best team was indeed the 68 Jets and 69 Chiefs......I will go as far as to say that the first 2 Super Bowls of 66 and 67 weren't that great and the AFL hadn't proven that they had any place on the same field with an NFL team. At that time, the Dallas/ Green Bay NFL Championships were watched with more respect as the true Championship Game, not this new Super Bowl thing. ...Those Landry vs Lombardi, Meridith vs Starr games of 66 and 67 were classics, the people in those games on Ed Sullivan and Johhny Carson. .....Joe Namath and the Jets of 68 of the AFL earned the wiiner takes all for the AFL, as did Hank Strahms Chiefs of 1969. ......The Vikings were such a good team of that era but lost out to Chiefs, Steelers, Raiders. ...The first two Super Bowls of 66 and 67 were less than Super, the first one played to a pretty empty stadium. ...Unfortunatly I'm old enough to remember such stuff. The AFL had no respect until Namath upset the Colts and even then the NFL thought it was a fluke until The Chiefs upset the Vikings the next year.

In the four NFL/ AFL matches......only Packers, Jets and Chiefs can lay claim to walking off the field winners.

[Nately120]

Originally Posted by kevin

...What in the heck could it possibly mean to Arizona fans that this team won light years ago in Chicago....

Lightyears measure distance, you dunderhead!