Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

[savagehenry54]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair enough. Alex Smith's complete career turnaround last year, after being written off as a bust numerous times, shows what can happen when you give a QB the right coaching and supporting cast (although it sounds like they might bench him for Kaepernick soon). I'm sure every QB would love to be like R-berger and play on a team whose D ranks top 5 every single year (seriously, the Steelers' D has only been outside of the top 5 ONE year Ben has been the QB ... and that was 2006 when they ranked 9th and Ben led the league in INTs and posted a losing 7-8 record as a starter. Does kinda make the point about how important D is to a QB's winning record ... 9th isn't even really that bad, but it was a lot harder for him to win that year)

Alex Smith had a 157 rating in the last full game he played prior to getting the concussion. Kapernick throws a few nice passes and he's the starter...kinda messed up really. Apparently Kapernick is Harbaugh's boy, so Jim didn't need much convincing. Plus, he can always go back to Smith on the fly due to Smith's experience. If he wants to see what he has in Kapernick for sure, he's gotta give em the first team reps so even though I think Smith is sorta gettin' screwed, I can understand.

If it goes right, they'll end up getting a good draft pick for Smith in a trade.

[Bengals Mike]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Fair enough. Alex Smith's complete career turnaround last year, after being written off as a bust numerous times, shows what can happen when you give a QB the right coaching and supporting cast (although it sounds like they might bench him for Kaepernick soon).

to be fair with Alex Smith, he did have 6 different offensive coordinators in his first 6 years there so he was pretty much having to learn a new offense every year with no continuity from one year to the next, I dont know if this can be pinpointed to his success now that he finally has more than 1 year with the same coordinator but it didn't help him either, my guess is having a former QB as his head coach also helps with Harbaugh's expertise there now as well

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

Alex Smith had a 157 rating in the last full game he played prior to getting the concussion. Kapernick throws a few nice passes and he's the starter...kinda messed up really. Apparently Kapernick is Harbaugh's boy, so Jim didn't need much convincing. Plus, he can always go back to Smith on the fly due to Smith's experience. If he wants to see what he has in Kapernick for sure, he's gotta give em the first team reps so even though I think Smith is sorta gettin' screwed, I can understand.

If it goes right, they'll end up getting a good draft pick for Smith in a trade.

How do you bench a QB that's completing 70% of his passes with a 104 passer rating? I get that Harbaugh drafted Kaep, but still. Some team is going to get a solid QB via trade next year. Won't be the Cards though. That poor team just can't catch a break at QB.

[wolfkaosaun]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

How do you bench a QB that's completing 70% of his passes with a 104 passer rating? I get that Harbaugh drafted Kaep, but still. Some team is going to get a solid QB via trade next year. Won't be the Cards though. That poor team just can't catch a break at QB.

Who knows. I actually am very much a Kaepernick fan and wanted him in Cincy (Nevada football fan here as well). Kaepernick has a high ceiling, but I don't think you go to him just yet. Although, maybe stick with him for one more game to make sure Smith is fully healthy.

[BumpyTrumpy]

...Palmer never had a chance at excellence.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by BumpyTrumpy

...Palmer never had a chance at excellence.

Coaching and ownership made sure of that.

[eoxyod]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

How do you bench a QB that's completing 70% of his passes with a 104 passer rating? I get that Harbaugh drafted Kaep, but still. Some team is going to get a solid QB via trade next year. Won't be the Cards though. That poor team just can't catch a break at QB.

Alex Smith is a fat jockey that guides the uber talented horse to a Kentucky Derby win
Colin Kaepernick is the more unexperienced jockey with immense ability as a jockey who will take that same horse and win the triple crown

[BengalsRocker]

Originally Posted by Original Bengal fan

Anyone who thinks it is not possible for Carson to light us up is toooo emotional he will want to win this game in the worst way and has the ability, he can get hot and everyone has seen it that has followed the Bengals when he was here. Fred is right on. I wonder how good this team would be with him as QB Andy is more mobile it would be hard to say he throws a better ball than Carson and Carson has a better arm than Andy. You will never know what really happened. I do believe on some of those deep balls to AJ Carson would have made those throws for TDs that Andy under threw. But Andy has the ability to extend plays which would have been sacks with Carson. I will be at the game but although I am disappointed how he left I do not have the hate some have he was fun to watch at times when he was here. I do not think Gruden would be crying if he was his QB now.

He would have made those throws in 2005. Not now. Even Carson throws passes these days way off the mark. I've watched him. I'm still seeing passes overthrown and too high... or don't you remember those high passes? The ones that usually got picked or missed wide open receivers not so long ago.

As far as Carson's lack of mobility. Palmer would have been absolutely killed here last year. Not to mention Dalton throws on the run much better.
.

[Nately120]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Alex Smith is a fat jockey that guides the uber talented horse to a Kentucky Derby win
Colin Kaepernick is the more unexperienced jockey with immense ability as a jockey who will take that same horse and win the triple crown

Alex Smith isn't a barn-burning #1 overall pick like he SHOULD be, but he's been playing some fairly good football, and he played his arse off in the playoffs last season. 5 TDs to 0 INTs inthe post-season against the Saints and the eventual SB-winning Giants? I wouldn't be so quick to sneeze at that, personally.

[Nately120]

Originally Posted by khamla

I wonder if Carson regrets moving out and just sitting pat. He would have made more money here also had a better winning team.

I doubt it. He spent the better (worse?) part of a decade dealing with Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis...I think he just had it with those two and the fact that the somwhat-good Bengals currently have 2 more wins than the god-awful Raiders isn't much to lose sleep over, is it?

He's in SoCal, he's still bringing in big money, and he's still seen as a martyr to his lousy team/owner/WRs/OC. Hain't nothing changed, except he got away from two people he couldn't stand working for any longer. Everyone wins, I guess.

[VCU Rams]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Alex Smith is a fat jockey that guides the uber talented horse to a Kentucky Derby win
Colin Kaepernick is the more unexperienced jockey with immense ability as a jockey who will take that same horse and win the triple crown

based on one game by kaep?

[BumpyTrumpy]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Coaching and ownership made sure of that.

Nah, nothing would have helped his terrible decision making. Something that usually comes with time, but never came to CP.

[Nately120]

Originally Posted by BumpyTrumpy

Nah, nothing would have helped his terrible decision making. Something that usually comes with time, but never came to CP.

You recall earlier in this season where Dalton seemed like Mr. Bad Decision, don't you? It's a very situation thing...or did Dalton get stupid during the postseason and offseason and then snap out of it a few weeks ago?

[bfine32]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Alex Smith is a fat jockey that guides the uber talented horse to a Kentucky Derby win
Colin Kaepernick is the more unexperienced jockey with immense ability as a jockey who will take that same horse and win the triple crown

Silly Really

[Karp]

Originally Posted by eoxyod

Alex Smith is a fat jockey that guides the uber talented horse to a Kentucky Derby win
Colin Kaepernick is the more unexperienced jockey with immense ability as a jockey who will take that same horse and win the triple crown

I don't know how many horse tracks that you have been around fella, but I haven't seen any fat jockeys in my day.

[Robbie Sharp]

Back on topic, Roethlisberger was doing a pretty good job with a shaky defense and an absolutely horrible offensive line until he got injured. IF a QB is really that good, they mask a lot of bad on a team, and get the job done. Manning did it last year on the Giants. Sure, that defense has a lot of big names, but the stats show they aren't as good as perhaps everyone thinks they should be.; he carried that team to win the big one last year. Meanwhile in Denver, big brother is elevating his team to another level, and I'm not hearing any excuses, though he could legitimately use several to explain any loss. Carson had a bad owner, Carson had a bad line, Carson had bad defenses,Carson had bad coaching, Carson had bad weapons even though he got the ones he asked for,those are all excuses why he didn't quite get the job done. He went to Oakland and the same excuses have resurfaced again, once again after supposedly getting what he wanted and was traded to a West coast "contender" Once again, all you have are excuses, but no real results. I thought perhaps these were reasons why he couldn't get it done here, and even felt sorry for him for a time. Then, I watched his lack of emotion.his sorry interviews, and I felt sorry for the team itself; it became obvious he wasn't "that guy" to lead this team. He's a great fantasy QB, and not much more. Enjoy your stay in Oakland, and enjoy your chilly welcome back to the stadium you supposedly refused to set foot in again. Maybe after tomorrow, you can actually achieve THAT goal, with no excuses!

[BumpyTrumpy]

Originally Posted by Nately120

You recall earlier in this season where Dalton seemed like Mr. Bad Decision, don't you? It's a very situation thing...or did Dalton get stupid during the postseason and offseason and then snap out of it a few weeks ago?

Which has what to do with CP's wasted excellence or lack thereof?

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Back on topic, Roethlisberger was doing a pretty good job with a shaky defense and an absolutely horrible offensive line until he got injured. IF a QB is really that good, they mask a lot of bad on a team, and get the job done.

Roethlisberger also had Cowher, and now Tomlin as Head Coaches, both of whom are SB winning and very good at motivating players. The Rooney's are also very great owners, and Ben has never had to deal with a defense outside of the top 10. His combined passer rating in 14 playoff games is a really average 83.7. In the 3 SBs he's been in, his respective ratings were: 22.6, 93.2, 77.4. Not exactly elite numbers.

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Manning did it last year on the Giants. Sure, that defense has a lot of big names, but the stats show they aren't as good as perhaps everyone thinks they should be.; he carried that team to win the big one last year.

The Giants defense was unstoppable in the playoffs last season. Something clicked for them at that was all she wrote. He played well because the defense was playing well. Eli isn't an elite QB.

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Meanwhile in Denver, big brother is elevating his team to another level, and I'm not hearing any excuses, though he could legitimately use several to explain any loss.

Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game of football. Comparing him to anyone would be unfair for the other guy. Although, you could say John Fox already had the team on the right track before Manning showed up.

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Carson had a bad owner, Carson had a bad line, Carson had bad defenses,Carson had bad coaching, Carson had bad weapons even though he got the ones he asked for,those are all excuses why he didn't quite get the job done.

-How many other "great" QBs in the modern era have had the worst owner in the NFL? -How many of them had a complete lack of a running game for 4 seasons and still did anything significant during that time?
-The 08 line was crap, and the 10 line was bad too. I don't think it was a coincidence that those we're Palmer's worst 2 seasons.
-If you remove the anomaly that was the 2009 Bengals defense, from 2004-2010 the average rank of the defense was 21st in points allowed, with a high of 17th in 2006.

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

He went to Oakland and the same excuses have resurfaced again, once again after supposedly getting what he wanted and was traded to a West coast "contender" Once again, all you have are excuses, but no real results.

-A front office in turmoil after having lost their owner/gm of decades.
-A rookie HC that installed a zone blocking scheme when their best running back is better suited for a power running game.
-A WC style offense with receivers more suited for an Air Coryell offense.
-Absolutely ZERO run game.
-The worst defense in the NFL, literally.

These aren't excuses, these are facts. Football is a team sport, so expecting any one player to make up for all of these deficiencies is naive at best.

Seriously, name another QB that's had to endure that much adversity and still had a great career? All things considered, I'd say he's fairing quite well. If his knee didn't get shredded, maybe he's a totally different QB and the Bengals have a bunch of playoff wins and possibly a SB. We'll never know though.

[bfine32]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Roethlisberger also had Cowher, and now Tomlin as Head Coaches, both of whom are SB winning and very good at motivating players. The Rooney's are also very great owners, and Ben has never had to deal with a defense outside of the top 10. His combined passer rating in 14 playoff games is a really average 83.7. In the 3 SBs he's been in, his respective ratings were: 22.6, 93.2, 77.4. Not exactly elite numbers.



The Giants defense was unstoppable in the playoffs last season. Something clicked for them at that was all she wrote. He played well because the defense was playing well. Eli isn't an elite QB.



Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game of football. Comparing him to anyone would be unfair for the other guy. Although, you could say John Fox already had the team on the right track before Manning showed up.



-How many other "great" QBs in the modern era have had the worst owner in the NFL? -How many of them had a complete lack of a running game for 4 seasons and still did anything significant during that time?
-The 08 line was crap, and the 10 line was bad too. I don't think it was a coincidence that those we're Palmer's worst 2 seasons.
-If you remove the anomaly that was the 2009 Bengals defense, from 2004-2010 the average rank of the defense was 21st in points allowed, with a high of 17th in 2006.



-A front office in turmoil after having lost their owner/gm of decades.
-A rookie HC that installed a zone blocking scheme when their best running back is better suited for a power running game.
-A WC style offense with receivers more suited for an Air Coryell offense.
-Absolutely ZERO run game.
-The worst defense in the NFL, literally.

These aren't excuses, these are facts. Football is a team sport, so expecting any one player to make up for all of these deficiencies is naive at best.

Seriously, name another QB that's had to endure that much adversity and still had a great career? All things considered, I'd say he's fairing quite well. If his knee didn't get shredded, maybe he's a totally different QB and the Bengals have a bunch of playoff wins and possibly a SB. We'll never know though.

Dude he's gone and if you're a Bengals fan he doesn't like you.

[Shake n Blake]

Originally Posted by shaolinghost

Roethlisberger also had Cowher, and now Tomlin as Head Coaches, both of whom are SB winning and very good at motivating players. The Rooney's are also very great owners, and Ben has never had to deal with a defense outside of the top 10. His combined passer rating in 14 playoff games is a really average 83.7. In the 3 SBs he's been in, his respective ratings were: 22.6, 93.2, 77.4. Not exactly elite numbers.



The Giants defense was unstoppable in the playoffs last season. Something clicked for them at that was all she wrote. He played well because the defense was playing well. Eli isn't an elite QB.



Peyton Manning is the best QB to ever play the game of football. Comparing him to anyone would be unfair for the other guy. Although, you could say John Fox already had the team on the right track before Manning showed up.



-How many other "great" QBs in the modern era have had the worst owner in the NFL? -How many of them had a complete lack of a running game for 4 seasons and still did anything significant during that time?
-The 08 line was crap, and the 10 line was bad too. I don't think it was a coincidence that those we're Palmer's worst 2 seasons.
-If you remove the anomaly that was the 2009 Bengals defense, from 2004-2010 the average rank of the defense was 21st in points allowed, with a high of 17th in 2006.



-A front office in turmoil after having lost their owner/gm of decades.
-A rookie HC that installed a zone blocking scheme when their best running back is better suited for a power running game.
-A WC style offense with receivers more suited for an Air Coryell offense.
-Absolutely ZERO run game.
-The worst defense in the NFL, literally.

These aren't excuses, these are facts. Football is a team sport, so expecting any one player to make up for all of these deficiencies is naive at best.

Seriously, name another QB that's had to endure that much adversity and still had a great career? All things considered, I'd say he's fairing quite well. If his knee didn't get shredded, maybe he's a totally different QB and the Bengals have a bunch of playoff wins and possibly a SB. We'll never know though.

Dalton > Palmer. Time to move on.

[Lawless_1]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Dalton > Palmer. Time to move on.

Everyone wants to go on and on about how Carson was so good his first year.... Carson also was awarded a chance to learn from a great mentor in Kitna who took time to teach him the ins and outs of the NFL. When we drafted Dalton all he got to see was how to be a crybaby and force your way back closer to home and throw your teammates to the curb.

[Ryan Mc]

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Back on topic, Roethlisberger was doing a pretty good job with a shaky defense and an absolutely horrible offensive line until he got injured....

I take your point generally, that the truly great QBs can compensate for a poor supporting cast, but I would dispute that Ben is one of those QBs. Pitt has the #1 defense in the league. They're not "shaky" at all.

Now, I will concede that they got off to a little bit of a slow start to the season - conceding 300+ yards in three of their first 5 games - but Pitt were 2-3 in those games, losing every single one of the aforementioned games their D allowed 300+. It was only after the D clamped down and ascended to #1 that they put a win streak together.

Roethlisberger is like most other QBs ... when his D struggles he finds it much harder to win than when his D dominates. (and "struggles" is relative here. Pitt's WORST defensive performance this year was conceding 359 yards ... 13 teams AVERAGE more yardage than that per game)

Originally Posted by Robbie Sharp

Manning did it last year on the Giants. Sure, that defense has a lot of big names, but the stats show they aren't as good as perhaps everyone thinks they should be.; he carried that team to win the big one last year.

Again, I'd have to disagree. Did you know that in the second half and OT of the NFC championship game last year the Giants had 12 possessions ... and punted on 10 of them? The only possessions they did not punt on were the two occasions the 9ers fumbled punts and the Giants recovered already in FG range. Hard to see that Eli "carried" that team ... defense and special teams kept them in games when Manning was struggling.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by bfine32

Dude he's gone and if you're a Bengals fan he doesn't like you.

I know he's gone, but that shouldn't give people permission to re-write history and make him into some terrible QB that only cared about himself and money. I'm not doing this for him; I have no relationship with him whatsoever, so his feelings mean squat to me. I'm doing this for me because 1) I enjoy debating, and 2) I don't take kindly to character assassinations simply because some fans still feel scorned.

Oh, and since you're telling me in a roundabout way that I should stop defending him, then you should also be telling the people criticizing him to stop as well.

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Dalton > Palmer. Time to move on.

I agree on both statements. Now, If only people would stop being so childish, making things up about Palmer in order to make themselves feel better...(not talking about you)

[Shake n Blake]

Ken Broo just said on 700 wlw that he's talked to people in Carson's neighborhood and they said that no one threw any trash on Carson's lawn. They called it an urban legend. It never happened. Just found that interesting considering the amount of posters on here that have used that to attack fans and defend Palmer's decision.

[shaolinghost]

Originally Posted by Shake n Blake

Ken Broo just said on 700 wlw that he's talked to people in Carson's neighborhood and they said that no one threw any trash on Carson's lawn. They called it an urban legend. It never happened. Just found that interesting considering the amount of posters on here that have used that to attack fans and defend Palmer's decision.

I thought that was a silly thing to talk about anyway. Now if someone/people dumped whole garbage cans full of crap on his lawn, that's a different story. Like you said, though, his neighbors said it never happened, so...

I'm sure everything(fans booing, insults to family, etc...) is being overblown by a lot of people, and those things probably played a very miniscule part in his decision to leave, or quit, the Bengals. Palmer has got to be smart enough to know the few idiots that may have personally insulted his family aren't indicative of an entire fan base, nor would he think the only reason people booed when his 20k yard milestone was announced was because they didn't like him. He even said the booing didn't bother him so much since he knows it's part of the game.

Either way, I hope most people can agree that the main reasons Carson left was because of Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis. Whether he was right or wrong for doing so will be debated for eternity.