Spanking children

[bengaljacob]

Originally Posted by HearUsRoar

Jacob? Is that you? That's the final straw bucko.

As you know I am just kidding, but I do not get spanked, i respect my parents enough to know when they are mad I better pipe down, believe me getting my phone or XBOX taken away are very painful. There is something to be said about other punishments, this is coming from a 11 year old.

[philhos]

One thing I think we all need to remember is that true DISCIPLINE of our children requires both punishment AND positive reinforcement. One without the other is most often not going to result in the most disciplined of children. Punishment alone will usually make for scared and/or rebellious kids and positive reinforcement alone usually makes for spoiled brats who think the world owes them a living.

Spanking is a form of punishment. And, as I said, ANY form of punishment without any positive reinforcement is not instilling proper discipline into your child.

[Samhain]

The more I look at people with kids, the more I realize that it ain't the spanking that matters. It's a useful tool, but it's more about respect and maybe a healthy "fear". It's like the line in the classic film "the Great Outdoors". Dan Akroyd's character asks his wife: "How come Chet's kids look at him like he's Zeus and our girls look at me like a rack of garden tools at Sears?" That's how I saw my dad. Like the guy who told it like it was, and the place where the buck ultimately stopped if I went too far. My mom was usually the one dishing out the pain, but when my dad had to get involved, the mere idea of it was uttery terrifying to me. At that point I knew that nobody was looking for my side of the story or any childish explanation. Everyone involved knew I did something wrong and I was going to pay bigtime. It made me think twice every time I was preparing to do something stupid.
Parents ultimately have to be willing to show kids that they won't just let kids off the hook b/c they're too lazy to deal with the problem. If it becomes a battle of wills, mom and dad need to understand that the only option is for the adult to win every time. That way, the kid learns that they won't get off easy for any reason.

[HearUsRoar]

Originally Posted by philhos

One thing I think we all need to remember is that true DISCIPLINE of our children requires both punishment AND positive reinforcement. One without the other is most often not going to result in the most disciplined of children. Punishment alone will usually make for scared and/or rebellious kids and positive reinforcement alone usually makes for spoiled brats who think the world owes them a living.

Spanking is a form of punishment. And, as I said, ANY form of punishment without any positive reinforcement is not instilling proper discipline into your child.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by bengaljacob

As you know I am just kidding, but I do not get spanked, i respect my parents enough to know when they are mad I better pipe down, believe me getting my phone or XBOX taken away are very painful. There is something to be said about other punishments, this is coming from a 11 year old.

You said phone. I must be getting old. I can't imagine being 11 and having my own phone.

[NashvilleBengalfan]

Spanking is sometimes necessary when you are raising children.
Time Out does not always work .

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by philhos

First off, what kid is driving, let alone parking in a handicap spot.

Seriously, though, spanking should be used mostly as a result of disobeying repeatedly. If I tell my kids not to do something and they do it anyway, that doesn't mean instant spanking (although, it depends on the severity of the "crime" they committed). However, if I've told them 3 times and they STILL are doing something they shouldn't, then that means they haven't learned their lesson and they will with a spanking.

And they will also learn, because it's not just a matter of spanking them. It's a matter of telling them WHY they are being spanked. Then they will learn the reasons for the spanking.

And, BTW, speaking from experience, when I spank my kids it most certainly does NOT hurt me more than it hurts them. Any parent that says so is full of crap.

Now this makes a little more sense to me. I can see some reason behind it. And I do like the fact that you are also telling them why they are being spanked, instead of relying simply on spanking. I don't think this will be my plan (I don't plan on spanking my children at all, I'm sure that's a surprise by now), but I can respect this idea.

Glad you also admit it hurts them more. I never believed that one, and I also now feel like that comment puts the feelings/emotions of the parent above those (and the physical pain) of the child.

[a6pk2go]

God is smarter than me and anyone on this board. His WORD the BIBLE says a little about it in Proverbs Chapter 22

Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child but the rod will drive it far from him.

You have to teach you children at an early age. I think there is a trainnig age from 1-8
A bending age from 9-12 and then a breaking age from 13-18. If you spent time teaching them right from wrong they will learn and do the right things when they get older. I got my share of spanking........heck I led my class in grades 7-8 in whippings and knocks on the head by a class ring from a teacher which isn't something to brag about.

Children need to have a rod use on them and not with the hand. The hand is supposed to show them how to love and when the rod is brought out they know they messed up. Once you discipline them you need to show them that you love them and how much they are loved. If you are whipping them with your hand they don't know wheter you are going to smack them or what is going to happen. It is all a part of the training a child should get.

Love with your hands and use the rod of correction with a rod. The younger the child is the smaller the rod needs to be. If you do this on a reg basis they will learn you mean business when the rod is brought out.

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by busamboy

Grounding you do to teenagers to take away privileges, kids don't understand privileges yet. So they are not going to understand a time out. A time out is not worse than telling a kid he has to go to bed. How is that punishment. Going to bed is the worse punishment you would be giving the kid in his eyes. You don't hit boys after a certain age, and i don't feel that you should hit girls at all because that may allow them to accept being hit by future boyfriends. Regardless of how you look at it, Men are different than women, even with all the civil rights trying to make us equals. But 2 different people can never be equals because everyone is different. I am different from you and you are different from any women. If you beat your kids from age say, 5 to 10, you should only have to beat them maybe a maximum of 3 times for the same thing. If they keep doing the same thing there are consequences. It lays down the law, and the kid knows exactly what is coming from you. I got beat as a kid, and I got beat for doing a couple of other things wrong more than once. But there was some things that I did that just wasn't worth the punishment. Kids learn risk vs reward, they understand grownup privileges once you move on from the spanking to grounding. It is an easy transition. For any girls that I have, I will have to take my wifes word on how she should be raised. But girls tend to not want to make their father sad, so there is a lot she will stay away from because she cares about a fathers feelings if it is a loving family. Teenage boys on the other hand, don't think like that, don't care to think like that as they tend to only worry about their selves. And also, just to comment on it, yes it does make your son grow up more tough, but in a good way. I don't know about you, but everyone that I know that got beat as a kid when they did something wrong does not let people walk over them. They are seen as leaders because they are more likely to understand right from wrong, but that is debatable. But a man that has gone through his trials and tribulations, or spankings in this case, stand taller because of it. Ask anybody that has gone through the military if they feel and act more like a man. It shows too. A kid that gets spanked for doing wrong just tends to understand other people boundaries and gets them to think about other peoples feelings and emotions and how their actions affect more than just thierselves. If you spank your kid the right way, and not just beat the crap out of them for no reason. They know that you don't enjoy it, even at a young age they can tell that.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on a lot of things, but I'm fine with that. I'm still a little confused on your take on time outs/going to bed. Kids may not completely understand the idea of privileges, but they do understand the idea of not getting to do what they want to do (which happens when they are in time out or have to go to bed early). If they do something bad, and because of that you take away something they want to do, then they can learn if they do something bad they don't get to do something they want to do. I don't see how spanking them to get them to learn not to do something is more effective (and with less possible long-term side effects) than that.

I understand your point on hitting girls, but don't you think hitting boys can make them more likely to accept being treated poorly in ways as well? I realize everyone is different, but when you treat them differently, that assumes you know something about them. Look at Nick Mangold's sister (Nick is the center for the NY Jets, formerly of OSU for those who don't know) - she plays high school football. What if her parents had told her girls don't play football and never let her play? She would not get the opportunity to do something she loves doing. On a more personal note, I grew up in the atmosphere of "boys aren't emotional" and "boys don't cry" - well, guess what, meeting my wife and learning to be in touch with my emotions has been the most rewarding experience of my life - I'm closer to myself and everyone else around me because of it.

I could (and will, if you want) go more into the "differences" you list between boys and girls - but you are talking nurture more than nature here. Boys are often socialized to be a certain way, and girls are often socialized to be another way. To put blanket statements out there saying "teenage girls feel this way" and "teenage boys feel this way" is just as dangerous as saying "all african-americans feel this way" or "all homosexuals feel this way". It simplifies things and prohibits everyone from having their own identity. Each person has their own identity, and nothing is more amazing than not placing/assuming an identity upon someone and instead learning who they really are.

On some of your other points, I know people who were spanked/beaten as children, and don't let people walk all over them. They are also not willing to listen to other people and tend to have very one-sided relationships, especially with their wives (the ones I know at least, I'm not making a blanket statement here). And not everyone "stands taller" because of spankings. My spankings as a kid made me feel like I was a bad person, in the long run, and I shrunk because of it. It severely lowered my self-value.

I also hate the idea of being "more like a man". I'm a man. Not just physiologically, but also in the fact that I respect people, I love my family (and others), and I take care of my family. Whether or not I am "tough" does not define me as a man - and I don't think it should. If you ask me, "acting like a man" is way over-rated. I'd rather simply be a man, and not have to act like what society tells me a man should be.

[Jasonew6]

Originally Posted by barryllium

A friend of my wife's recently said, "If I could give one piece of advice to parents, it would be spank your children." When my wife told me about this, I almost fell out of my seat. Really, that would be your one piece of advice? Not "love your children" or "be patient" or anything like that?

Most parents already love their children, and being patient isn't "controvertial" like spanking is.

Originally Posted by barryllium

Anyway, this has me thinking - why spank children to begin with? What does it really teach children when they are spanked. I was spanked as a child, and all it really taught me was that being spanked hurts. That, and if you are bigger than someone you can get what you want by force.

I'm wondering if anyone really has a reason to spank children - because I just don't see it (and I'm willing to accept I just might not understand). I realize you really cannot reason with a 2-3 year old - but that doesn't mean spanking is the only other option. I've heard the argument that not spanking children doesn't "teach them discipline" - but aren't there other things that teach children discipline? And how do you teach a child that violence is wrong when violence is what you use to discipline? It all makes me think of a quote I once heard (and I can't remember who said it or the exact wording), but it essentially is "people aren't very creative when violence is an option".

I'm not trying to condemn anyone who has ever spanked their children - it's been widely accepted for a long time. I'm merely stating that I simply don't understand it, and am looking for people's insight either way. So - why spank children?

I will say this. I was spanked as a child. But almost never for the same thing twice. And while there are times I was spanked for things I don't think I would spank my child for, I do intend to use spanking as a form of discipline. At least at first. For some kids it works, for some it doesn't. For some kids all you need is to give them a "mean look". It depends on the child, and what they respond to.

When I do use spanking, it will likely be only in instances of outright defiance, or for repeated offenses when other means of discipline did not work.

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by a6pk2go

God is smarter than me and anyone on this board. His WORD the BIBLE says a little about it in Proverbs Chapter 22

Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child but the rod will drive it far from him.

You have to teach you children at an early age. I think there is a trainnig age from 1-8
A bending age from 9-12 and then a breaking age from 13-18. If you spent time teaching them right from wrong they will learn and do the right things when they get older. I got my share of spanking........heck I led my class in grades 7-8 in whippings and knocks on the head by a class ring from a teacher which isn't something to brag about.

Children need to have a rod use on them and not with the hand. The hand is supposed to show them how to love and when the rod is brought out they know they messed up. Once you discipline them you need to show them that you love them and how much they are loved. If you are whipping them with your hand they don't know wheter you are going to smack them or what is going to happen. It is all a part of the training a child should get.

Love with your hands and use the rod of correction with a rod. The younger the child is the smaller the rod needs to be. If you do this on a reg basis they will learn you mean business when the rod is brought out.

I by no means am going to try to turn this into a religious debate here. I really don't want to. But what if the "rod" is only a figurative "rod"? Why does it need to be a literal "rod"?

And then there's the whole issue of the bible being written by man, and we can prove it's the word of god just as simply as we can prove that it's not - in other words, neither is provable. A lot of wisdom can be gotten from the bible, for me I get the most out of it when I take it figuratively more than literally. By this, I mean, never use your hands to discipline a child (as you have said). But be very stern and powerful in how you discipline them (figuratively using a rod). Nothing is more decisive, in my mind, then explaining a consequence in advance, and then following through when it is necessary.

[a6pk2go]

[quote=philhos;392728]First off, what kid is driving, let alone parking in a handicap spot.

Seriously, though, spanking should be used mostly as a result of disobeying repeatedly. If I tell my kids not to do something and they do it anyway, that doesn't mean instant spanking (although, it depends on the severity of the "crime" they committed). However, if I've told them 3 times and they STILL are doing something they shouldn't, then that means they haven't learned their lesson and they will with a spanking.

And they will also learn, because it's not just a matter of spanking them. It's a matter of telling them WHY they are being spanked. Then they will learn the reasons for the spanking.

And, BTW, speaking from experience, when I spank my kids it most certainly does NOT hurt me more than it hurts them. Any parent that says so is full of crap. [/quote



What gets me is why a parent counts three times or gives them three chances before they do something about the situation. They get one chance, if they stop doing what they are doing then they know you mean business. It does take doing the same thing over and over when they are younger but I can tell the ones who things beating them over the head or letting them have their way isnt going to help them later in life.

A lot of kids don't really learn anything until they have their own. If you teach them the right thing to do and explain why when they are younger your life will have a lot less stress later when they turn into a teenager.

Get rid of the counting and show them you are the parent and you will have their respect and also teach their children when they have them later.

[Carp]

A spanking hurts alot less than the alternative if a child keeps up a certain misbehavior. I would rather my hand dish a little snap than what the WORLD can dish out to a unresponsive child.

In public, my mother would just cart us off to the restroom for a good ol' fashion swat.
Come to think of it...I haven't gone #2 in a public restroom since.

Really not a huge deal if done for the right reasons that many of you have mentioned.
Just personal choice.

Happy spanking and grounding to all

[eoxyod]

Being 13, I can remember being spanked
I was only spanked about 5 times though because after I was spanked, I knew not to do what I knew was wrong and I thought before I did anything

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by a6pk2go

What gets me is why a parent counts three times or gives them three chances before they do something about the situation. They get one chance, if they stop doing what they are doing then they know you mean business. It does take doing the same thing over and over when they are younger but I can tell the ones who things beating them over the head or letting them have their way isnt going to help them later in life.

A lot of kids don't really learn anything until they have their own. If you teach them the right thing to do and explain why when they are younger your life will have a lot less stress later when they turn into a teenager.

Get rid of the counting and show them you are the parent and you will have their respect and also teach their children when they have them later.

Giving a child a chance allows them to be human. What if every time you did something wrong I punched you in the face? Does that allow you to learn and be human? Being a parent isn't just about teaching a child how to do certain things and teach them to immediately know right from wrong. Being a parent also (and more importantly in my mind) involves allowing them to be human beings and accepting/understanding the humanity in everyone.

To me, it's like the whole idea of giving a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish. Trying to teach a child each specific right and wrong is giving them fish. Helping a child how to more rationally decide right from wrong and understand their own (and others) humanity is teaching them to fish.

[busamboy]

Originally Posted by Jasonew6

Most parents already love their children, and being patient isn't "controvertial" like spanking is.



I will say this. I was spanked as a child. But almost never for the same thing twice. And while there are times I was spanked for things I don't think I would spank my child for, I do intend to use spanking as a form of discipline. At least at first. For some kids it works, for some it doesn't. For some kids all you need is to give them a "mean look". It depends on the child, and what they respond to.

When I do use spanking, it will likely be only in instances of outright defiance, or for repeated offenses when other means of discipline did not work.

Sounds good to me, can't argue with that one.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by a6pk2go

God is smarter than me and anyone on this board. His WORD the BIBLE says a little about it in Proverbs Chapter 22

Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child but the rod will drive it far from him.

You have to teach you children at an early age. I think there is a trainnig age from 1-8
A bending age from 9-12 and then a breaking age from 13-18. If you spent time teaching them right from wrong they will learn and do the right things when they get older. I got my share of spanking........heck I led my class in grades 7-8 in whippings and knocks on the head by a class ring from a teacher which isn't something to brag about.

Children need to have a rod use on them and not with the hand. The hand is supposed to show them how to love and when the rod is brought out they know they messed up. Once you discipline them you need to show them that you love them and how much they are loved. If you are whipping them with your hand they don't know wheter you are going to smack them or what is going to happen. It is all a part of the training a child should get.

Love with your hands and use the rod of correction with a rod. The younger the child is the smaller the rod needs to be. If you do this on a reg basis they will learn you mean business when the rod is brought out.

You had to go there didn't you, I was wandering who'd be the first to post some scripture. Man can we just get through one thread without scripture.

[busamboy]

Originally Posted by barryllium

Giving a child a chance allows them to be human. What if every time you did something wrong I punched you in the face? Does that allow you to learn and be human? Being a parent isn't just about teaching a child how to do certain things and teach them to immediately know right from wrong. Being a parent also (and more importantly in my mind) involves allowing them to be human beings and accepting/understanding the humanity in everyone.

To me, it's like the whole idea of giving a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish. Trying to teach a child each specific right and wrong is giving them fish. Helping a child how to more rationally decide right from wrong and understand their own (and others) humanity is teaching them to fish.

Why not teach them how to do something the right way the first time everytime? (Punching someone in the face is hardly a corrective measure and has no place in this argument) A person that is corrected on the first time will not form habits and grow up with self pride. There is a difference between forcing them to do that with every aspect of their lives, but as a form of punishment there is nothing wrong with punishing them hard the first time they do it. It gets it straight in their mind that they are not to do what ever it is again and there is no mistake about it. If it happens again, the consequence is worse.

[busamboy]

Originally Posted by bengal in KY

Being 13, I can remember being spanked
I was only spanked about 5 times though because after I was spanked, I knew not to do what I knew was wrong and I thought before I did anything

Then you are well on your way to becoming a fine person.

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by busamboy

Why not teach them how to do something the right way the first time everytime? (Punching someone in the face is hardly a corrective measure and has no place in this argument) A person that is corrected on the first time will not form habits and grow up with self pride. There is a difference between forcing them to do that with every aspect of their lives, but as a form of punishment there is nothing wrong with punishing them hard the first time they do it. It gets it straight in their mind that they are not to do what ever it is again and there is no mistake about it. If it happens again, the consequence is worse.

Have you ever done something wrong, and then learned the right way to do it without being spanked/physically disciplined? Spanking isn't the only answer, it's just a convenient and easy one. I've made a stupid joke around my wife, and her telling me that my joke hurt her feelings is far more effective than anything else could be. And wouldn't you feel like your humanity was being diminished if every time you did something wrong someone physically disciplined you? Maybe I'm wrong, but it would be that way for me.

I don't see how punching someone in the face doesn't have a place in this argument. If someone at my job does something wrong (like makes a sexually inappropriate comment towards a woman), and I punch them as a form of punishment, how is that completely different than spanking a child when they do something wrong? Try to divide them all you want, but the idea is the same: someone does something wrong, violence is used as the punishment.

Just because you are someone's parent doesn't make the physical pain or emotions any different when physical discipline is involved.

[HearUsRoar]

Originally Posted by barryllium

Have you ever done something wrong, and then learned the right way to do it without being spanked/physically disciplined? Spanking isn't the only answer, it's just a convenient and easy one. I've made a stupid joke around my wife, and her telling me that my joke hurt her feelings is far more effective than anything else could be. And wouldn't you feel like your humanity was being diminished if every time you did something wrong someone physically disciplined you? Maybe I'm wrong, but it would be that way for me.

I don't see how punching someone in the face doesn't have a place in this argument. If someone at my job does something wrong (like makes a sexually inappropriate comment towards a woman), and I punch them as a form of punishment, how is that completely different than spanking a child when they do something wrong? Try to divide them all you want, but the idea is the same: someone does something wrong, violence is used as the punishment.

Just because you are someone's parent doesn't make the physical pain or emotions any different when physical discipline is involved.

Punching an adult (someone with the ability to reason) in the face and spanking a child (someone without the ability to reason) on the butt are two different things. Not just literally different, but different from a rationalizing standpoint as well.

[busamboy]

Originally Posted by barryllium

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on a lot of things, but I'm fine with that. I'm still a little confused on your take on time outs/going to bed. Kids may not completely understand the idea of privileges, but they do understand the idea of not getting to do what they want to do (which happens when they are in time out or have to go to bed early). If they do something bad, and because of that you take away something they want to do, then they can learn if they do something bad they don't get to do something they want to do. I don't see how spanking them to get them to learn not to do something is more effective (and with less possible long-term side effects) than that.

I understand your point on hitting girls, but don't you think hitting boys can make them more likely to accept being treated poorly in ways as well? I realize everyone is different, but when you treat them differently, that assumes you know something about them. Look at Nick Mangold's sister (Nick is the center for the NY Jets, formerly of OSU for those who don't know) - she plays high school football. What if her parents had told her girls don't play football and never let her play? She would not get the opportunity to do something she loves doing. On a more personal note, I grew up in the atmosphere of "boys aren't emotional" and "boys don't cry" - well, guess what, meeting my wife and learning to be in touch with my emotions has been the most rewarding experience of my life - I'm closer to myself and everyone else around me because of it.

I could (and will, if you want) go more into the "differences" you list between boys and girls - but you are talking nurture more than nature here. Boys are often socialized to be a certain way, and girls are often socialized to be another way. To put blanket statements out there saying "teenage girls feel this way" and "teenage boys feel this way" is just as dangerous as saying "all african-americans feel this way" or "all homosexuals feel this way". It simplifies things and prohibits everyone from having their own identity. Each person has their own identity, and nothing is more amazing than not placing/assuming an identity upon someone and instead learning who they really are.

On some of your other points, I know people who were spanked/beaten as children, and don't let people walk all over them. They are also not willing to listen to other people and tend to have very one-sided relationships, especially with their wives (the ones I know at least, I'm not making a blanket statement here). And not everyone "stands taller" because of spankings. My spankings as a kid made me feel like I was a bad person, in the long run, and I shrunk because of it. It severely lowered my self-value.

I also hate the idea of being "more like a man". I'm a man. Not just physiologically, but also in the fact that I respect people, I love my family (and others), and I take care of my family. Whether or not I am "tough" does not define me as a man - and I don't think it should. If you ask me, "acting like a man" is way over-rated. I'd rather simply be a man, and not have to act like what society tells me a man should be.

I don't really know how to respond to this. You make valid points on many fronts, but it still doesn't change the fact that parents know what is best for their children. Some kids learn from spanking and some just deal with the pain and move on. Here is an analogy, Any smart child will associate pain as a consequence. Kids never touch pots on the stove or touch the wall of the oven when it is on, why because it is stupid and senseless if they have already been burned before. A huge warning pops up in their brain that says, you know, touching that just is not worth the consequence of the after effect. They learn from a very young age. But if you do the same when it is not hot, there is no consequence. The child will not learn to not touch it or he will get burned, until it finally happens. That is the best was that I can use an analogy for how I believe that spanking does wonders in a boys early development. If you do not do something that puts up that huge warning sign in his brain and makes him think that it is senseless to do something that is against the rules.

I see that you said you got beat as a child, I also got abused as a child. (not sexually, just beat for no reason) Trust me I understood the difference between a beating being a consequence and a senseless act. When I was spanked I was older, from 8 to like 12. Then it didn't work anymore. I was moving onto other things where mistakes become something that are not written in stone. If you were beat any older than that, I could understand how it would affect you because you were probably getting beat from things you already learned you lesson from just because those lessons come with responsibility. Once I hit 13, I had to write sentences. I didn't care for them, so I kept doing the exact same things. Until my mom made me write 2,000 and then 3,000 of them (which takes a while might I add) at a time before I could go play. It is imperative to me that I have my boys ready to become a teenager, if they are still doing the same stupid mistakes that they were doing at 8, then I am failing them, not the other way around. If a timeout works for your kid, then that is a good job for the kid, but when he starts to take advantage of your weakness, like kids are doing as a society these days, it is hard to go back and correct what has already been missed.

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by HearUsRoar

Punching an adult (someone with the ability to reason) in the face and spanking a child (someone without the ability to reason) on the butt are two different things. Not just literally different, but different from a rationalizing standpoint as well.

If a child has no ability to reason, though, how can spanking actually teach anything? And if spanking can teach them something, doesn't it stand to reason that something else (something perhaps relatable to the "offense") would work as well?

[Jumbro]

Originally Posted by philhos

I agree completely!

I also find it interesting that when a child gets in trouble at school, many parents ask the school what the SCHOOL did or yelling at the SCHOOL, instead of reaming the kid out for getting into trouble. If my girls were ever to get into trouble at school (hasn't happened yet, knock on wood), you better believe I'm not going to care too much what the school did (unless they went overboard on punishment) and I'm going to make sure that my girls don't EVER get into trouble again.

As a teacher, it is AWESOME man. You kick a kid out of an assembly for misbehaving and send them to the office. Before the assembly is even over, your principal calls you in to the office where the child and the parent is. On the way to the office, the child TEXTED the parent (1-no cell phones allowed 2-parent willing conversed via text, on the not allowed cell phone) and the parent left work and showed up at the school to yell at the teacher for hating her child.

Parents used to trust teachers and the judgement of teachers...now they expect us to do what they want us to do just because they aren't home to do it.

HELICOPTER PARENTS STINK

[barryllium]

Originally Posted by busamboy

I don't really know how to respond to this. You make valid points on many fronts, but it still doesn't change the fact that parents know what is best for their children. Some kids learn from spanking and some just deal with the pain and move on. Here is an analogy, Any smart child will associate pain as a consequence. Kids never touch pots on the stove or touch the wall of the oven when it is on, why because it is stupid and senseless if they have already been burned before. A huge warning pops up in their brain that says, you know, touching that just is not worth the consequence of the after effect. They learn from a very young age. But if you do the same when it is not hot, there is no consequence. The child will not learn to not touch it or he will get burned, until it finally happens. That is the best was that I can use an analogy for how I believe that spanking does wonders in a boys early development. If you do not do something that puts up that huge warning sign in his brain and makes him think that it is senseless to do something that is against the rules.

I see that you said you got beat as a child, I also got abused as a child. (not sexually, just beat for no reason) Trust me I understood the difference between a beating being a consequence and a senseless act. When I was spanked I was older, from 8 to like 12. Then it didn't work anymore. I was moving onto other things where mistakes become something that are not written in stone. If you were beat any older than that, I could understand how it would affect you because you were probably getting beat from things you already learned you lesson from just because those lessons come with responsibility. Once I hit 13, I had to write sentences. I didn't care for them, so I kept doing the exact same things. Until my mom made me write 2,000 and then 3,000 of them (which takes a while might I add) at a time before I could go play. It is imperative to me that I have my boys ready to become a teenager, if they are still doing the same stupid mistakes that they were doing at 8, then I am failing them, not the other way around. If a timeout works for your kid, then that is a good job for the kid, but when he starts to take advantage of your weakness, like kids are doing as a society these days, it is hard to go back and correct what has already been missed.

Saying "parents know best" is sketchy, at best. I agree that many parents think they know best. But did the parents in this article know best (they didn't get medical care for their child for a treatable form of diabetes - because they said their religion didn't allow it - and the child died)? From personal experience, someone I know underfed their child (despite ours and other family members advice) because they wanted to put their child on a feeding schedule and didn't want their infant "eating too much" - and now that child is 2 and suffering horrible developmental delays (as in doesn't talk, barely babbles). So to say parents know best is a touchy subject with me.

In the end, a parent willing to research, take advice, read books, and be open to the fact that they might not know best is the parent that "knows best". My parents did several things well, but they also did several things unwell. My wife and I have chosen to work as a team to best learn from those who's job it is to study child development (both psychologically and physiologically) to help us learn what the best things to do are (by reading their books, studying their research) - because we know we cannot be expected as parents with jobs in other fields to be able to know the best things to do as a parent on our own.

You are right, a child learns to do things because in doing it before, they learned something undesirable happens (like your stove/pot burn analogy). To assume spanking is the best or only way to instill this "huge warning" in their brain is closed-minded at best. And to assume that spanking is the only way to do this for a boy (when apparently there must be a way to do this for a girl, based on your arguments) to me assumes that boys must be less smart or rational than girls. So why not use the same punishments on a boy you would use on a girl?

I did get beat as a child once, when I was 12. Before that, I was spanked many a time. After I was 12, I was bigger than my parents, so the one time my father tried to physically discipline me after that (I was roughly 13), I shoved him on the ground. Our relationship was never the same after that - a huge wall went up on his end once he realized he could not physically discipline me anymore, and he became emotionally detached from me. I did the same. It is an issue in our relationship still today, 16 years later. Him spanking me lowered any respect I had for him, and as soon as he wasn't bigger than me anymore, I was able to show that.

I agree that a parent fails their children if they are still making the same mistakes at 13 that they did at 8 - but spanking is not the only way to assure this (and you did admit this, as you said if a timeout works then great). If you teach children that physical discipline should earn respect, though, that only works as long as you are capable of doing that. What do you do when the children are older? To say that using "time outs" is a weakness is false. Punishments have to evolve with the child - time outs will work for a while, but then when they get older, it becomes a grounding. Or the car is taken away. Or something else - but it doesn't need to become spanking at any point. The thing that works the best is establishing a mutual feeling of respect (spanking is one-sided respect), and teaching how bad actions cause hurt feelings, disappointment, and a consequence fitting of the "crime".

Your comment of "but when he starts to take advantage of your weakness, like kids are doing as a society these days, it is hard to go back and correct what has already been missed" has more to do with parental negligence as a whole, not an absence of spanking. With both parents working full time (many time necessary, but can still be overcome), with more parental ideas coming out with the focus being on the parents and not the children, and in many cases less of an emotional connection being established between parents and their children (not to mention the poor example being set by many failing/failed marriages where the parents don't handle it in a very adult way), many children are not given many tools to continue to enter the world with as they get older.