Do the big three worship the same god.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Well the Jesus vs Mohamed thread god shut down. However there was an interesting discussion going on at the end, about whether the Big three actually worship the the same god. Now I'm not a follower of any of those religions, but I contend that all three are worshipping the same god.

Anyway here's a good article on it, it's a bit lengthy at 9 pages but well worth the read

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...003355,00.html

[tbone77]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.freequran.com/images/family_tree.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.freequran.com/html/his_family_tree.htm&h=468&w=540&sz=31&hl=en&start= 3&sig2=GtFkHZ866EegWpaMA9p8Gw&um=1&tbnid=v5Y_UFhre 7iiFM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=132&ei=9Il6SK3BPJH2ebX4qVo&pr ev=/images%3Fq%3Dabraham%2Bislam%2Bfamily%2Btree%2Bdes cendants%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26sa%3DN

[tbone77]

http://www.coc1.com/arabisraeliameri...amily-tree.gif


http://www.bible.ca/genealogy-abrahams-tree.gif

[tbone77]

http://brillharts.com/CKC/Week2/Roots.jpg

[Alias]

Originally Posted by tbone77

http://brillharts.com/CKC/Week2/Roots.jpg

Yep, you established that Judaism (and Christianity through it) and Islam all come from Abraham. The only reason I say no is because christians consider Jesus God, and the others don't. So, in my mind, Judaism and Islam worship only part of the God of christianity, even though all 3 would say "we worship the God of Abraham"

[tbone77]

I found a good section in page 2:

If Abraham is indeed father of three faiths, then he is like a father who left a bitterly disputed will.

Judaism and Islam, for starters, cannot even agree on which son he almost sacrificed. Then there is Abraham's Covenant with God. Many Jews (and some conservative Christians) believe it granted the Jewish people alone the right to the Holy Land. That belief fuels much of the Israeli settler movement and plays an ever greater role in Israel's hostility toward Palestinian nationalist claims. "Our connection to the land goes back to our first ancestor. Arabs have no right to the land of Israel," says Rabbi Haim Druckman, a settler leader and a parliamentarian with the National Religious Party. This argument infuriates Palestinian Muslims--especially since the Koran claims that Abraham was not a Jew but Islam's first believer. "The people who supported Abraham believed in one God and only one God, and that was the Muslims. Only the Muslims," says Sheik Taysir Tamimi, Yasser Arafat's liaison for religious dialogue.

Not exempt from the tripartite rancor, early Christians used their understanding of Abraham, who they claimed found grace outside Jewish law, to prove that the older religion begged for replacement--a contention that helped propel almost two millenniums of anti-Semitism.

[Corrupt3d]

Originally Posted by alias

Yep, you established that Judaism (and Christianity through it) and Islam all come from Abraham. The only reason I say no is because christians consider Jesus God, and the others don't. So, in my mind, Judaism and Islam worship only part of the God of christianity, even though all 3 would say "we worship the God of Abraham"

I think the idea of "We Worship the God of Abraham" holds true though, cause in my opinion, you can look at it by saying God didn't have a Son until Jesus was born, before than he was one entity.



Regardless, its a great article and I do believe we all worship the same God.


That's right Skeeter, we believe in the same God.

[Alias]

Originally Posted by Corrupt3d

I think the idea of "We Worship the God of Abraham" holds true though, cause in my opinion, you can look at it by saying God didn't have a Son until Jesus was born, before than he was one entity.



Regardless, its a great article and I do believe we all worship the same God.


That's right Skeeter, we believe in the same God.

Jesus didn't come into existence when he was born to Mary. That was just him becoming incarnate. I posted John 1 in the other thread, but that (and others) show that Jesus has always been around since the beginning, just not in flesh.


John 1:1-17
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but {he came} to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {eve*** to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' " For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."


*edit* John 1:1-5 is cross-referenced to: (other places you can find the ideas expressed in those passages)
# Gen 1:1; Col 1:17; 1 John 1:1; Rev 1:4, 8, 17; 3:14; 21:6; 22:13
# John 1:1 : Rev 19:13; Heb 4:12; 1 John 1:1
# John 1:1 : 1 John 1:2; John 17:5
# John 1:1 : Phil 2:6
# John 1:3 : John 1:10; Psalm 33:6; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2
# John 1:4 : John 5:26; 11:25; 1 John 1:2; 5:11
# John 1:4 : John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
# John 1:5 : John 3:19

[tbone77]

And this from page 4:

So linked is Abraham's name with this new path [devout monotheism] that each of the subsequent two monotheistic religions reached back hungrily to enfold him--and belittle the others' claims on him.

[Jumbro]

I do believe that the "big three" worship the same God. However, I do not in that way believe that each of the three faiths are equal in how "right" they are...or how "righteous". THere are parts of Catholicism that I believe other Christian denominations are missing, parts of Christianity that I believe Muslims and Jews are missing out on.

[tbone77]

From page 6:

Somewhat like Paul, Islam concluded that God chooses his people on grounds of commitment rather than lineage, meaning that Abraham's only true followers are true believers--i.e., Muslims.

[a6pk2go]

Originally Posted by alias

Jesus didn't come into existence when he was born to Mary. That was just him becoming incarnate. I posted John 1 in the other thread, but that (and others) show that Jesus has always been around since the beginning, just not in flesh.


John 1:1-17
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but {he came} to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {eve*** to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' " For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."


*edit* John 1:1-5 is cross-referenced to: (other places you can find the ideas expressed in those passages)
# Gen 1:1; Col 1:17; 1 John 1:1; Rev 1:4, 8, 17; 3:14; 21:6; 22:13
# John 1:1 : Rev 19:13; Heb 4:12; 1 John 1:1
# John 1:1 : 1 John 1:2; John 17:5
# John 1:1 : Phil 2:6
# John 1:3 : John 1:10; Psalm 33:6; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2
# John 1:4 : John 5:26; 11:25; 1 John 1:2; 5:11
# John 1:4 : John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
# John 1:5 : John 3:19

Excellent post!!!

[tbone77]

We might be monotheistic but we definitely have polygamic roots.

Here is the expulsion of Ishmael and his mom Hagar, Abe's concubine honey, from artist Gustave Doré's illustrated Bible of 1866. "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." I guess this rift is still a sticking point for Jews and Muslims. I am thinking about the land between the Nile and the Euphrates.


Is Abraham a uniter?

The Tomb of the Patriarchs, a massive stone structure built by King Herod 2,000 years ago, is the grim living metaphor for dueling Abrahamisms. Despite God's promise that this land would be his people's one day, Abraham in Genesis makes a point of paying Ephron the Hittite 400 silver shekels for a cave in Hebron to serve as a burial plot. He and Sarah were laid there, and later, Scripture adds, so were Isaac and his wife Rebecca, his grandson Jacob and his first wife Leah. Herod erected a grandiose monument at what hethought was the site. For most of the past few hundred years, its Muslim owners, who called it the Mosque of Abraham, allowed Jews to pray near the entrance. When the Israelis took control in 1967, believers of both faiths worshipped side by side. Then in 1994 a radical Israeli settler, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, mowed down 29 Muslims at prayer in thetomb. Custody shifted to a complex scheme granting each side access to parts or all of the tomb on different days but avoiding their meeting. Since the latest intifadeh, the arrangement continues, but the site, hedged about with checkpoints and razor wire in a neighborhood under strict military curfew, presents a message of piety inextricable from violence and mistrust.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by alias

Jesus didn't come into existence when he was born to Mary. That was just him becoming incarnate. I posted John 1 in the other thread, but that (and others) show that Jesus has always been around since the beginning, just not in flesh.


John 1:1-17
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but {he came} to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {eve*** to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' " For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."


*edit* John 1:1-5 is cross-referenced to: (other places you can find the ideas expressed in those passages)
# Gen 1:1; Col 1:17; 1 John 1:1; Rev 1:4, 8, 17; 3:14; 21:6; 22:13
# John 1:1 : Rev 19:13; Heb 4:12; 1 John 1:1
# John 1:1 : 1 John 1:2; John 17:5
# John 1:1 : Phil 2:6
# John 1:3 : John 1:10; Psalm 33:6; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2
# John 1:4 : John 5:26; 11:25; 1 John 1:2; 5:11
# John 1:4 : John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
# John 1:5 : John 3:19

As it says in the article that you are working from two different texts...quoting scripture does not make the other see your point more clearly. It offers no proof to the other, and only proves what you believe.

[Alias]

Originally Posted by RICHMONDBENGAL_07

As it says in the article that you are working from two different texts...quoting scripture does not make the other see your point more clearly. It offers no proof to the other, and only proves what you believe.

Right... but the belief of Christianity, and the assertion in the Bible, that Jesus = God would mean that the other 2 religions, which don't accept that Jesus=God, do not worship the same God as that of Christians.

So I could see how the case could be made that Islam and Judaism worship the same God, but not once you throw in Christianity.

[tbone77]

Regarding the contested patrimony of Abraham the top of page 7 sums it up:

It is enough to make a grown man cry, which Feiler nearly does. "They took a biblical figure open to all," he writes, "tossed out what they wanted to ignore, ginned up what they wanted to stress and ended up with a symbol of their own uniqueness that looked far more like a mirror image of their fantasies than a reflection of the original story." To his horror, he realized that Abraham "is as much a model for fanaticism as he is for moderation."

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by alias

Right... but the belief of Christianity, and the assertion in the Bible, that Jesus = God would mean that the other 2 religions, which don't accept that Jesus=God, do not worship the same God as that of Christians.

So I could see how the case could be made that Islam and Judaism worship the same God, but not once you throw in Christianity.

I understand what you are saying, I don't agree. To me the only difference is the christian believe Jesus is the embodiment of god. All three religions claim lineage to Abraham as being the founder of their religions, hence you would have to believe in Abrahams god, if you are any of those three. Interestingly enough according to the article and IMO all three have manipulated, added and subtracted to try and prove or make their lineage the more correct path to Abraham.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by tbone77

Regarding the contested patrimony of Abraham the top of page 7 sums it up:

Yeah I thought that was interesting as well.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by Jumbro

I do believe that the "big three" worship the same God.

Originally Posted by Jumbro

However, I do not in that way believe that each of the three faiths are equal in how "right" they are...or how "righteous". THere are parts of Catholicism that I believe other Christian denominations are missing, parts of Christianity that I believe Muslims and Jews are missing out on.

I agree with what I highlighted.....the rest is a another debate all together

[Alias]

Originally Posted by RICHMONDBENGAL_07

I understand what you are saying, I don't agree. To me the only difference is the christian believe Jesus is the embodiment of god. All three religions claim lineage to Abraham as being the founder of their religions, hence you would have to believe in Abrahams god, if you are any of those three. Interestingly enough according to the article and IMO all three have manipulated, added and subtracted to try and prove or make their lineage the more correct path to Abraham.

That's fine, and I know a lot of people tout that, but it isn't consistent with the Bible, unless you throw out parts. That, however, would be a whole 'nother discussion.

I've never really considered Abraham to be a founder of Christianity. I mean he was a founder of Judaism, and Christianity branched off from Judaism, but there was nothing that Abraham believed (to my knowledge) that was particularly Christian in nature. In my experience, he is simply shown as someone with a great deal of faith in the promises of God.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by alias

That's fine, and I know a lot of people tout that, but it isn't consistent with the Bible, unless you throw out parts. That, however, would be a whole 'nother discussion.

I've never really considered Abraham to be a founder of Christianity. I mean he was a founder of Judaism, and Christianity branched off from Judaism, but there was nothing that Abraham believed (to my knowledge) that was particularly Christian in nature. In my experience, he is simply shown as someone with a great deal of faith in the promises of God.

I'm sorry I'm not trying to prove the valadity or invaladity of Christ. The point was that the the christian religion traces it's lineage to Abraham as the father or founder, he is mentioned many times in the bible, therefore if the religion believes Abraham to be the orginator, whether it be Muslim, Christian, or Jewish...it only makes sense that you would believe in the same god that Abraham did. If you don't believe Abraham to be the founder, that is your belief or opinion...however Christian religion does trace it's lineage to Abraham

On a side note: If you haven't read the article (and I'm not suggesting you haven't), I really suggest you read it, as a man of faith, I think you will find it interesting. It really hits on the three different roles Abraham plays as a Jew, Muslim, and Christian. And the conflicts between the the Three because of it.

[tbone77]

Assuming Abraham was born 4,000 years ago, there have only been about 200 or so generations since then to interpret the story of Abraham. At the end of the article in the OP, the author points out that each generation has a slightly revised interpretation of Abe (or dramatically revised if we look at the 1st century and the 7th century CE). We are still writing the history (ehm revisionist history) as we speak. And we can choose whatever we want to do with it.

Let's be honest. The story of Abe has been edited, ginned up here, demonized there, reconstituted by Peter and the Christians 2000 years ago, reconstituted again by the Muslims 1300 years ago.....Working in parallel, three religions have claimed and reconstituted the story of Abe in favor of three different, competing agendas. Judaism was the first religion to claim Abe, Christianity was the second, and Islam was the third. Who will be the fourth? Maybe Islam will produce an offshoot, sort of like Judaism did when Peter converted to Christianity. The funny part about all this nonsense is when an elitist and ethnocentric Christian claims to be superior to a Muslim, and vice versa.

The whole turf war between Judeo-Christianity and Islam going back to Sara and Hagar reminds me of siblings fighting over the inheritance of their dead mother's precious ring or siblings squabling over their parent's estate. It's deplorable and infantile. God and Abraham must be ashamed of what we have done in their honor. Look at the razor wire we have snaked through the holy city of Hebron. Look at how so many people on each side try to demonize each other.

Mosque, tomb of Abraham\


Entrance to the mosque side of the Tomb of the Patriarchs, said to be be the burial place of Adam and Eve and Abraham and Sarah. The Tomb is split in half -- one side for Muslims and the other for Jews. Christians can visit either.


On the mosque side of the Tomb of the Patriarchs, looking through to the Jewish side. Note the panels of bullet-proof glass.


The question is did God intend for the big three to battle with each other for thousands of years? What does that say about us? What does it say about the God we worship? What does it say about the big three interpretations, not to mention hundreds of interpretations by hundreds of denominations?

[Alias]

Originally Posted by RICHMONDBENGAL_07

I'm sorry I'm not trying to prove the validaty or invalidity of Christ. The point was that the the christian religion traces it's lineage to Abraham as the father or founder, he is mentioned many times in the bible, therefore if the religion believes Abraham to be the orginator, whether it be Muslim, Christian, or Jewish...it only makes sense that you would believe in the same god that Abraham did. If you don't believe Abraham to be the founder, that is your belief or opinion...however Christian religion does trace it's lineage to Abraham

On a side note: If you haven't read the article (and I'm not suggesting you haven't), I really suggest you read it, as a man of faith, I think you will find it interesting. It really hits on the three different roles Abraham plays as a Jew, Muslim, and Christian. And the conflicts between the the Three because of it.

I did read a bit of it, but then I started watching a movie lol. It was interesting.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Originally Posted by alias

I did read a bit of it, but then I started watching a movie lol. It was interesting.

I understand brother... But when you get the chance, I really suggest reading through it...it'll take maybe 20 mins at best. I read it on my 30 min lunch break ....I think you'll find it interesting at least, and informative. And like I said hits on a lot the points we're discussing..but in better detail. And maybe better explains it better than I am Reading it's entirety though is key.

[jamiethelanky]

Both Islam and Christianity are offshoots of Judaism and are built on an innate monotheism (as is Hinduism and other religions that may refer to a spirit or enlightenment through Theism).

In short, they're the same God.