America is dying.

[Rayne]

And I think it needs to.

I spent 4 years in the Navy....4 medals, letter of commendation and an honorable discharge. I didn't do that for money, I did it because I believe in what the country stands for....liberty and freedom. That's the same reaon most vets served. It's not about money, it's about believing in something bigger than yourself. It's not about what you're willing to fight for, it's about what you're willing to die for.

But that's not how our gov't see it...they see the flag and think money...power...abuse.

How many times have we the people been asked, by our gov't, to take one for the team? How many times must those of us that are nine to fivers...ham and eggers...been told to give more money to them so that they can live in luxery houses, drive in luxery cars and live a life of indulgence while we live in squaller?

We're talking about nurses, cab drivers, trash men, ditch diggers, lumberjacks, truck drivers, burger flippers, and yes...housekeepers. All of us and more. All the blue collar guys are being asked to help the rish people - both in gov't and out - to maintain their lifestyle.

When was the last time anyone in our gov't - a gov't that is suppose to be FOR the people - stood up and said, "Hey, we're going to take one for you now. We're going to take pay cuts. We're going to learn how to manage money."

But that's not what happens....when they mismanage money...they just take more.

From the little guy.

These people spend more money - on an individual basis - on lunch than I make all year.

I make 22K a year and that's BEFORE taxes and deductions.

Folks, we have spouses of people in the military LIVING ON MILITARY BASES, that are on welfare and food stamps because their spouses aren't paid enough.

And we're giving money to millionares?!

The gov't wont hestitate to take money from me and give themselves a raise. Or bail out wall street so that wall street can use the money to pay it's executives and ignore it's own nine to fivers?

Veterans - the people that fought for this country - were being asked to pay for their own war injuries. That got killed because of the outrage - but the fact that someone thought this was a GOOD idea - good enough to actually write down and go public with - is indicative of how bad things are.

This isn't the way it was suppose to be.

The people we elected to govern the place are either not there or in it for themselves.

And it's killing us.

Like I said, America is dying - and I think it needs to.

[Benton]

That's pretty strong wording there Ghost.

Are there problems? Sure.

Has this country had problems before? Sure.

Some of the same/similar problems? Yep.

Did we eventually correct things? Yes.

Let me ask you something. What do you do to alleviate the things you mentioned? Are you relyng on the government to fix those or are you trying to help out military families, trying to get a better job, speaking with your elected officials or organizing people to speak with them?

Or are you just posting on a football message board and hoping we all become... what? Canadian? Korean? Mexican? Maybe we could get England to part of us back.

[BennyBengals]

Originally Posted by Joe from Benton

That's pretty strong wording there Ghost.

Are there problems? Sure.

Has this country had problems before? Sure.

Some of the same/similar problems? Yep.

Did we eventually correct things? Yes.

Let me ask you something. What do you do to alleviate the things you mentioned? Are you relyng on the government to fix those or are you trying to help out military families, trying to get a better job, speaking with your elected officials or organizing people to speak with them?

Or are you just posting on a football message board and hoping we all become... what? Canadian? Korean? Mexican? Maybe we could get England to part of us back.

Nah we've got problems at the moment too!

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Joe from Benton

That's pretty strong wording there Ghost.

Are there problems? Sure.

Has this country had problems before? Sure.

Some of the same/similar problems? Yep.

Did we eventually correct things? Yes.

Let me ask you something. What do you do to alleviate the things you mentioned? Are you relyng on the government to fix those or are you trying to help out military families, trying to get a better job, speaking with your elected officials or organizing people to speak with them?

Or are you just posting on a football message board and hoping we all become... what? Canadian? Korean? Mexican? Maybe we could get England to part of us back.

I don't mind if taxes go up, but they're going to people that don't need the money and we're ignoring the ones that do.

All poloticians take a pay cut down to 20 grand a year, including the president. Companies that go under, got under. The others will get the business. I can't do much to fix the problem - but the people that can, aren't.

[fredtoast]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I don't mind if taxes go up, but they're going to people that don't need the money and we're ignoring the ones that do.

You must have missed the point that hs been made around here many, many times.

All people who have lots of money earned it through hard, honest work.

All people who don't have money are just lazy.

This is America where anyone that works hard will do good and prosper, and the only way you can get into hard times is by being lazy.

So if we do anything to help the poor people we are just rewarding lazines.

[jmccracky]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

And I think it needs to.

I spent 4 years in the Navy....4 medals, letter of commendation and an honorable discharge. I didn't do that for money, I did it because I believe in what the country stands for....liberty and freedom. That's the same reaon most vets served. It's not about money, it's about believing in something bigger than yourself. It's not about what you're willing to fight for, it's about what you're willing to die for.

But that's not how our gov't see it...they see the flag and think money...power...abuse.

How many times have we the people been asked, by our gov't, to take one for the team? How many times must those of us that are nine to fivers...ham and eggers...been told to give more money to them so that they can live in luxery houses, drive in luxery cars and live a life of indulgence while we live in squaller?

We're talking about nurses, cab drivers, trash men, ditch diggers, lumberjacks, truck drivers, burger flippers, and yes...housekeepers. All of us and more. All the blue collar guys are being asked to help the rish people - both in gov't and out - to maintain their lifestyle.

When was the last time anyone in our gov't - a gov't that is suppose to be FOR the people - stood up and said, "Hey, we're going to take one for you now. We're going to take pay cuts. We're going to learn how to manage money."

But that's not what happens....when they mismanage money...they just take more.

From the little guy.

These people spend more money - on an individual basis - on lunch than I make all year.

I make 22K a year and that's BEFORE taxes and deductions.

Folks, we have spouses of people in the military LIVING ON MILITARY BASES, that are on welfare and food stamps because their spouses aren't paid enough.

And we're giving money to millionares?!

The gov't wont hestitate to take money from me and give themselves a raise. Or bail out wall street so that wall street can use the money to pay it's executives and ignore it's own nine to fivers?

Veterans - the people that fought for this country - were being asked to pay for their own war injuries. That got killed because of the outrage - but the fact that someone thought this was a GOOD idea - good enough to actually write down and go public with - is indicative of how bad things are.

This isn't the way it was suppose to be.

The people we elected to govern the place are either not there or in it for themselves.

And it's killing us.

Like I said, America is dying - and I think it needs to.

I don't want America to die by any means. I want us to prosper. I also want fairness. But, you make really good points about this and have me thinking about it.

[HearUsRoar]

Originally Posted by fredtoast

You must have missed the point that hs been made around here many, many times.

All people who have lots of money earned it through hard, honest work.

All people who don't have money are just lazy.

This is America where anyone that works hard will do good and prosper, and the only way you can get into hard times is by being lazy.

So if we do anything to help the poor people we are just rewarding lazines.

Quit your belly-aching.

The majority of people who are wealthy earned it the honest way.

The majority of people who are poor are good people.

Stop the woe-is-me attitude and you might actually sway someone's opinion one of these days.

[GreggyDigital]

The death of America is greatly exaggerated.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

And I think it needs to.

I spent 4 years in the Navy....4 medals, letter of commendation and an honorable discharge. I didn't do that for money, I did it because I believe in what the country stands for....liberty and freedom. That's the same reaon most vets served. It's not about money, it's about believing in something bigger than yourself. It's not about what you're willing to fight for, it's about what you're willing to die for.

what money? you must be from the younger generation and must be talking about those big incentive bucks to join. We didn't have that when I enlisted.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Ghost is really given to hyperbole. Lets not act like anything going on now is any worse or different then it was 100 years ago. The US government used to be more corrupt, abuse of power was more prevalent and flagrant. Certain citizens weren't even allowed to vote and some didn't even count as a whole human being.


Quit succumbing to the "back in the old days" BS. It's not helpful, nostalgia is nice for certain things but public policy and perception is not one of them. Instead of whining about it why don't you do something to make the country better? Volunteer your time, be a Big Brother(Sister?), adopt a highway. If everyone who whines about the state of the nation actually did something about it we'd have a lot less to whine about.

[Bengalzona]

When I enlisted in the early '80s it was because there was a recession and a high school grad in the midwest couldn't buy a job. When I went through ROTC in the late 80s, it was because I wanted a secure job when I got out of school. It was a good choice because when I got out of college, there was another recession and even WalMart turned me down. That may sound mercenary, but it is honest.

I appreciate this country and the freedoms that we have (particularly the freedom of religion). And those who fought and died for that freedom are heroes to be honored. However, my biggest loyalty is to my friends who served with me.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Ghost is really given to hyperbole. Lets not act like anything going on now is any worse or different then it was 100 years ago. The US government used to be more corrupt, abuse of power was more prevalent and flagrant. Certain citizens weren't even allowed to vote and some didn't even count as a whole human being.


Quit succumbing to the "back in the old days" BS. It's not helpful, nostalgia is nice for certain things but public policy and perception is not one of them. Instead of whining about it why don't you do something to make the country better? Volunteer your time, be a Big Brother(Sister?), adopt a highway. If everyone who whines about the state of the nation actually did something about it we'd have a lot less to whine about.

were you a commissioned officer like your old man?

[Bengalzona]

BTW - Ghost, I do agree with your comments about politicians. They serve themselves and the highest bidder. Unfortunately, this is the way it has always been throughout time. The shrewd riding on the backs of the gullible.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

were you a commissioned officer like your old man?

Yup, but my career was significantly shorter.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Yup, but my career was significantly shorter.

I figured as much. The only O's that I knew that were worth their weight were the one's that were prior enlisted. All others had a superiority complex.

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I figured as much. The only O's that I knew that were worth their weight were the one's that were prior enlisted. All others had a superiority complex.

That superiority complex has a purpose. I don't necessarily agree with it totally, but there is a purpose for it.

Unfortunately for me, I often had to defend my commanding officers and their actions a lot. Being an Adjutant really suhchs!

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

what money? you must be from the younger generation and must be talking about those big incentive bucks to join. We didn't have that when I enlisted.

What money.

Exactly.

If you join the military and they don't pay a lot - obviously it wasn't for the money.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I figured as much. The only O's that I knew that were worth their weight were the one's that were prior enlisted. All others had a superiority complex.

We had 1000 of them on board and I knew 2 that were worth thier salt....one was the Capt. and he was prior enlisted. Snipe at that. The other was my Lt. and he told us up front that he'll get the credit for what we do, but don't have a clue what it is. He also told us he'd take care of us and get us what we needed to get the job done. We did our job, he got promoted and he took us out to dinner a few times. Dinner for 50 guys a few times over....plus he got us a boatload of time off in port San Diego.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I figured as much. The only O's that I knew that were worth their weight were the one's that were prior enlisted. All others had a superiority complex.

Kind of an blanket statement to make you think? I knew some outstanding officers and I knew some outstanding enlisted personnel. I also knew some horrible officers and equally horrible enlisted personnel. One of the worst people I knew in the Armed Forces was a Warrant Officer. You sound like one of those grumpy old E-7's who think every butter bar is a know it all jerk simply because they're young and outrank them. There's nothing stopping any enlisted person from getting their degree and getting his/her commission. Don't hate on someone because of their education.

[Benton]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I don't mind if taxes go up, but they're going to people that don't need the money and we're ignoring the ones that do.

All poloticians take a pay cut down to 20 grand a year, including the president. Companies that go under, got under. The others will get the business. I can't do much to fix the problem - but the people that can, aren't.

It's not going to change. Any time anyone chooses how to spend someone elses money, they aren't going to be spending it how you want. And if politicans went down to $20 grand a year you'd have the same problem you have now for different reasons-- they wouldn't be doing their job because they'd off working. I don't agree with them making what they do, but taking them down that much might actually make things worse.

As far as fixing the problem, why can't you? Volunteer to give a few hours to a food bank. If you don't have one, start one. Collect toys at Christmas. Offer to watch a single parent's kid so they can go to work and don't have to pay daycare.

There's plenty of things people can do if they really want to fix things and none of them involve the government.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

We had 1000 of them on board and I knew 2 that were worth thier salt....one was the Capt. and he was prior enlisted. Snipe at that. The other was my Lt. and he told us up front that he'll get the credit for what we do, but don't have a clue what it is. He also told us he'd take care of us and get us what we needed to get the job done. We did our job, he got promoted and he took us out to dinner a few times. Dinner for 50 guys a few times over....plus he got us a boatload of time off in port San Diego.

What ship were you on that had a 1000 officers? A Nimitz class has under 600, any secret super carriers out there the rest of us don't know about?

[jmccracky]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Kind of an blanket statement to make you think? I knew some outstanding officers and I knew some outstanding enlisted personnel. I also knew some horrible officers and equally horrible enlisted personnel. One of the worst people I knew in the Armed Forces was a Warrant Officer. You sound like one of those grumpy old E-7's who think every butter bar is a know it all jerk simply because they're young and outrank them. There's nothing stopping any enlisted person from getting their degree and getting his/her commission. Don't hate on someone because of their education.

I see what you're saying. But Kevin is cool. IMO.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by jmccracky

I see what you're saying. But Kevin is cool. IMO.

I don't really have a problem with him either, but I don't think that cuts both ways.

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

I figured as much. The only O's that I knew that were worth their weight were the one's that were prior enlisted. All others had a superiority complex.

One of the most important lessons I learned was in O-training at Ft. Lewis. Our TAC NCO was Special Forces sergeant and a Vietnam vet. He pulled me aside one day after an argument with another cadet (it was pretty competitive) and said,

"Do you think that if somebody puts you in charge of a company someday that you are going to be the best natural leader or the smartest person among 300 people? Maybe, but don't count on it. I mean, what are the odds? 300 to 1? Get for real. No, your claim to importance is that you have a higher level of training and access to more information. As far as leadership, your job is to find the natural leaders in the group, encourage and develop that talent, and recruit them into accomplishing the mission. You are there as a symbol of authority. That is not the same as being the chosen leader. If you are able to do these things successfully, you will be a good officer and you might even make some people think your a good leader."

I memorized what he said verbatim because it shook me up. I had been going through training thinking I was s special and so smart to be selected to be an O. <beep> Wrong answer! I don't think they teach this kind of wisdom in the classes at the academies or in ROTC programs. They should.

As an LT, I was put in command of a platoon at one point. I had no problem with motivation or respect. And, no, I was not among the most natural leaders in the platoon. However, I was able to gain their respect (most were already NCOs).

I fought with my superior officers constantly on behalf of the soldiers. My evaluations reflected this and I eventually left service before I got Riffed.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Kind of an blanket statement to make you think? I knew some outstanding officers and I knew some outstanding enlisted personnel. I also knew some horrible officers and equally horrible enlisted personnel. One of the worst people I knew in the Armed Forces was a Warrant Officer. You sound like one of those grumpy old E-7's who think every butter bar is a know it all jerk simply because they're young and outrank them. There's nothing stopping any enlisted person from getting their degree and getting his/her commission. Don't hate on someone because of their education.

Well I'd have to say you're assuming that I'm applying my statement to all officers. Perhaps I could have worded it better but I said the only one's that I knew that were worth............ But after looking back upon that there was maybe a couple that were in my area of responsibility that weren't prior enlisted that weren't complete morons. You also have to realize that my daily "exposure" to O's were mostly fighter jocks and I think everyone in the AF knows how those guys can be.

I retired an E-7 and no shame in that. The way you say "there's nothing stopping an enlisted person from getting their degree and getting their commission" makes it sound like a commissioned officer is the only way to go. I knew many enlisted guys who had more degrees than our "superior" officers. I'm proud of my enlisted heritage and wouldn't trade it for any commissioned officer rank. The enlisted core is the backbone of the military forces. Also I never had any problems with any O-1 & 2's. They realized they were being mentored (at least in the aircraft maintenance arena) by the senior NCO's and took it to heart. I'm not hating on officers because of their education (seems like a typical officer thought logic and response that enlisted are not well educated and we dislike them because they are ). I'm hating on those officers because of their character and their abilities.