America is dying.

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by Bengalzona

I fought with my superior officers constantly on behalf of the soldiers. My evaluations reflected this and I eventually left service before I got Riffed.

Could it be that you fought with your superiors on behalf of your troops because of your prior enlisted duty? I know a lot of the O's that I knew that were prior enlisted always remembered where they came from and how it was being an enlisted person so they always took good care of their troops.

I salute you Bengalzona.

[steelman59]

We had an nco in my unit, he served in nam with the sf's.He said officers only purpose in combat was to stop the bullets so the enlisted guys didn't get hit. Strange guy he was.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

Well I'd have to say you're assuming that I'm applying my statement to all officers. Perhaps I could have worded it better but I said the only one's that I knew that were worth............ But after looking back upon that there was maybe a couple that were in my area of responsibility that weren't prior enlisted that weren't complete morons. You also have to realize that my daily "exposure" to O's were mostly fighter jocks and I think everyone in the AF knows how those guys can be.

I retired an E-7 and no shame in that. The way you say "there's nothing stopping an enlisted person from getting their degree and getting their commission" makes it sound like a commissioned officer is the only way to go. I knew many enlisted guys who had more degrees than our "superior" officers. I'm proud of my enlisted heritage and wouldn't trade it for any commissioned officer rank. The enlisted core is the backbone of the military forces. Also I never had any problems with any O-1 & 2's. They realized they were being mentored (at least in the aircraft maintenance arena) by the senior NCO's and took it to heart. I'm not hating on officers because of their education (seems like a typical officer thought logic and response that enlisted are not well educated and we dislike them because they are ). I'm hating on those officers because of their character and their abilities.

Well perhaps you should be more careful with your statements. Please remember you fired the first salvo in this argument by intimating I was a bad officer. So don't play the victim card or claim innocence in this matter. When I'm talked to with discourtesy I generally respond with it. As for your assumption that I'm implying there's something wrong with being enlisted I'm obviously not, merely stating that hating on someone because they got a degree and a commission is wrong. As I said there are good officers and bad officers, there are good enlisted personnel and bad. You continue to try and make this something that it's not, stating that I'm attacking enlisted personnel. Well stop projecting your obvious distaste for most officers on me. Again, remember this whole argument is your doing.



Lastly, I don't care what side of this argument your on, the fact that I nailed the E-7 part is funny.

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by kevin28_1962

Could it be that you fought with your superiors on behalf of your troops because of your prior enlisted duty? I know a lot of the O's that I knew that were prior enlisted always remembered where they came from and how it was being an enlisted person so they always took good care of their troops.

I salute you Bengalzona.

Thanks Kevin.

To be brutally honest about it, if I hadn't learned this lesson from the sergeant, I probably would have been just like most of the other young 'shavetails'*. I was all too ready to think that I was special and better than rest, despite being prior enlisted. It was really a question of common sense, wisdom and humility (or lack of in my case).

The fact that I fought with my superiors doesn't necessarily make me right or mean that I was serving the soldiers best interests. Look at it this way. In most junior officer positions you are middle management. You may have troops that work under you. But, ultimately there is a commander over you who needs those troops to do what he is ordered to do. If a junior officer develops too close of a relationship with the soldiers, it has the potential to undermine the overall commander's authority. It can also undermine the NCOs' ability to do their jobs.

*- 'Shavetail' is an old cavalry term. Back in the day of horse cavalry, it was the LTs job to shave the business end of the all the horses for hygene. Possibly one of the nastiest and humbling jobs at that time!

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by steelman59

We had an nco in my unit, he served in nam with the sf's.He said officers only purpose in combat was to stop the bullets so the enlisted guys didn't get hit. Strange guy he was.

I knew a Ranger sergeant who was the same way. I always thought it was a front, but he never relented. He never smiled either. I mean never. I sort of appreciate guys like that as they keep others around them honest and focused.

[The Noob Avenger]

[Bengalzona]

Originally Posted by The Noob Avenger

Hey... who invited you into our former military whine fest?

[kevin28_1962]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

Well perhaps you should be more careful with your statements. Please remember you fired the first salvo in this argument by intimating I was a bad officer. So don't play the victim card or claim innocence in this matter. When I'm talked to with discourtesy I generally respond with it. As for your assumption that I'm implying there's something wrong with being enlisted I'm obviously not, merely stating that hating on someone because they got a degree and a commission is wrong. As I said there are good officers and bad officers, there are good enlisted personnel and bad. You continue to try and make this something that it's not, stating that I'm attacking enlisted personnel. Well stop projecting your obvious distaste for most officers on me. Again, remember this whole argument is your doing.



Lastly, I don't care what side of this argument your on, the fact that I nailed the E-7 part is funny.

ah yes it's all my fault. my apologies sir.

Dude when did I say you were attacking enlisted personnel? How the heck did you read that into my statements? Yeah you nailed the E-7 part, but not the "know it all jerk" part.

Also just curious as to what you did in the Force?

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

What ship were you on that had a 1000 officers? A Nimitz class has under 600, any secret super carriers out there the rest of us don't know about?

When they listed the ships company of the USS Constellation in the cruise book, there were 5000 men listed. 4000 enlisted and 1000 officers.

[Dill]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

And I think it needs to.
I spent 4 years in the Navy....4 medals, letter of commendation and an honorable discharge. I didn't do that for money, I did it because I believe in what the country stands for....liberty and freedom. That's the same reaon most vets served. It's not about money, it's about believing in something bigger than yourself. It's not about what you're willing to fight for, it's about what you're willing to die for.
But that's not how our gov't see it...they see the flag and think money...power...abuse.
How many times have we the people been asked, by our gov't, to take one for the team? How many times must those of us that are nine to fivers...ham and eggers...been told to give more money to them so that they can live in luxery houses, drive in luxery cars and live a life of indulgence while we live in squaller?
We're talking about nurses, cab drivers, trash men, ditch diggers, lumberjacks, truck drivers, burger flippers, and yes...housekeepers. All of us and more. All the blue collar guys are being asked to help the rish people - both in gov't and out - to maintain their lifestyle.
When was the last time anyone in our gov't - a gov't that is suppose to be FOR the people - stood up and said, "Hey, we're going to take one for you now. We're going to take pay cuts. We're going to learn how to manage money."
But that's not what happens....when they mismanage money...they just take more.
From the little guy.
These people spend more money - on an individual basis - on lunch than I make all year.
I make 22K a year and that's BEFORE taxes and deductions.
Folks, we have spouses of people in the military LIVING ON MILITARY BASES, that are on welfare and food stamps because their spouses aren't paid enough.
And we're giving money to millionares?!
The gov't wont hestitate to take money from me and give themselves a raise. Or bail out wall street so that wall street can use the money to pay it's executives and ignore it's own nine to fivers?
Veterans - the people that fought for this country - were being asked to pay for their own war injuries. That got killed because of the outrage - but the fact that someone thought this was a GOOD idea - good enough to actually write down and go public with - is indicative of how bad things are.
Tis isn't the way it was suppose to be.
The people we elected to govern the place are either not there or in it for themselves.
And it's killing us.
Like I said, America is dying - and I think it needs to.

I am not going to stand idly by while someone runs down capitalism in this forum.

The politicians I am familiar with put the military front and center and talk long and hard about
liberty and freedom (which might be the same thing). How else are you going to get people to
support the rich, who are the backbone of America? Just supporting abortion won't don't it.

And quite a number of politicians also run on anti-government platforms, similar to yours, Ghost.
Some people say "of course you get bad government when you elect people who don't believe in government."
Hogwash! where I come from government "for" the people is just another codeword for socialism.

So long as Americans prefer a STRONG government and STRONG leaders over leaders who
are FOR the people, then we are safe from the socialist threat of a government that works in the
public/national interest. If people expect the rich to take a hit and not receive a govt bailout, then
it seems like a double standard to give money to those military spouses on on food stamps. Why
should they get money they didn't earn if rich wall street ceos can't either? At least if the rich get it
it, it will trickle down to the rest of us.

If you are truly as patriotic as you say, Ghost, then help true Americans get another president who wants
a STRONG American AND smaller government. **** it up for the good of the country, not the
government.

[BengalTrucker]

Most young officers were not worth their weight in horse sh!#.

The only good young Officers were either Mustangs, or had asked an NCO, or SNCO to teach them what they needed to know. Most of them were as much a danger to their own men as to the enemy. Some officers you respect, but most you respect the rank and not the man.

Just because some fat lazy waste of human excrement in Washington declared you and Officer and a Gentleman, didn't mean you knew the difference between your butt and a hole in the ground.

The worse and most arrogant waste of flesh where officers who Daddies were Officers. I have seen an O-4 who attained his rank because of his father being an O-6 get two men killed because of his stupidty and inability to listen because he knew everything.

I also saw an O-1 take a SNCO to the side and ask him to teach him how to be a Marine Officer.

I think you can guess which of these two officers I respected.

The best Officer I ever meet was a former 0311 who earned his degree and his commision. Major White was a leader and Marine officer in the image of Chesty Puller. He would get down in the dirt with his men and lead from the front like a Marine Officer was supposed to. He earned your respect.

[SociopathicSteelerFan]

Originally Posted by BengalTrucker

Most young officers were not worth their weight in horse sh!#.

The only good young Officers were either Mustangs, or had asked an NCO, or SNCO to teach them what they needed to know. Most of them were as much a danger to their own men as to the enemy. Some officers you respect, but most you respect the rank and not the man.

Just because some fat lazy waste of human excrement in Washington declared you and Officer and a Gentleman, didn't mean you knew the difference between your butt and a hole in the ground.

The worse and most arrogant waste of flesh where officers who Daddies were Officers. I have seen an O-4 who attained his rank because of his father being an O-6 get two men killed because of his stupidty and inability to listen because he knew everything.

I also saw an O-1 take a SNCO to the side and ask him to teach him how to be a Marine Officer.

I think you can guess which of these two officers I respected.

The best Officer I ever meet was a former 0311 who earned his degree and his commision. Major White was a leader and Marine officer in the image of Chesty Puller. He would get down in the dirt with his men and lead from the front like a Marine Officer was supposed to. He earned your respect.

It never ceases to both amaze and amuse me the slew of enlisted personnel who feel justified in criticizing their superiors simply because they feel they know better. As stated before, there are good and bad people on both sides of the "fence". The system is what it is, and it's proven very effective or else it wouldn't still exist in the same form. It's the privilege of the lower ranks to complain about everything as they aren't privy to the reasons behind the decisions that are made, even though they feel they know better.


In short, get over yourself.

[steelman59]

Originally Posted by SociopathicSteelerFan

It never ceases to both amaze and amuse me the slew of enlisted personnel who feel justified in criticizing their superiors simply because they feel they know better. As stated before, there are good and bad people on both sides of the "fence". The system is what it is, and it's proven very effective or else it wouldn't still exist in the same form. It's the privilege of the lower ranks to complain about everything as they aren't privy to the reasons behind the decisions that are made, even though they feel they know better.


In short, get over yourself.

We did no better, because while they sat back and drank their coffee, we went out and did the fighting. They had the smarts but they lacked the combat experience, but they figured their education was more valuable then actual experience. Arlington is full of those types of officers.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by steelman59

We did no better, because while they sat back and drank their coffee, we went out and did the fighting. They had the smarts but they lacked the combat experience, but they figured their education was more valuable then actual experience. Arlington is full of those types of officers.

And arrogance is no substitute for wisdom.

I went to The Little Bighorn this past summer - since I live in WY and am fairly close - and took in the battlesight.

They went through the battle and how Custer saw one of his Col.'s in trouble and just sat there (according to the scouts testimony) and how he divided his forces thinking going up against Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull would be an easy fight.

Some of his men were buried at "Last Stand Hill" while others were buried where they lay when found.

Know where Custer is buried?

West Point.

Yup...over 2000 miles away and serving as a shining example of what a fine officer is.

That don't sit right with me. This man's arrogant decision got 240 men killed and he gets honored. He should be buried with his men.

On a semi-related note...when I was in the Navy I had to call officers "Sir" just as other branches do. How to do this to officers I didnt' respect...that was the problem.

A MasterChief gave me the answer. "Sir' is an acronym" he said. "It means 'Stupid, Idiotic, ******".

"Sometimes when you say 'Sir' you'll mean it as a term of repect and sometimes you'll be using the acronym. Only YOU will know when you're doing each".

I always wondered how a 20 year chief could call a butter bar ensign 'Sir' with a straight face.

I'd have called Custer, "Sir". *wink*