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Old 07-08-2011, 08:50 AM
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Default Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

Most people here know that Carson Palmer has had to deal with some very poor defensive play while with the Bengals. In his 6 seasons as our starting QB the average rank of the defense was 19th in scoring and 22nd in yards. Only once has he had a defense that finished in the top half of the league in scoring.

Most people also know that he has been victimized by poor special teams play. The most notable of this being the final two weeks of the '06 season when Carson's clutch last minute scoring drives that would have tied the Broncos game and won the Steelers game were ruined by a botched XP and a missed chip shot 35 yd FG. A win in either one of those games would have sent the Bengals to the playoffs in back-to-back seasons for the first time in over 25 years and capped off one of the greatest "come back" seasons ever.

And of course most people here know that Carson is one of only 3 QBs in NFL history to throw 6 td passes and still lose the game.

However most people probably don't know that in 11 of his 51 career losses (21.6%) Carson has had a passer rating of 100 or better. Only 11 other QBs in NFL history have lost more than 11 games when having a passer rating of 100, but most of them have a lot more than 51 losses. In fact among all QBs with more than 25 career losses only 2 have a higher percentage of losses with a 100 passer rating than Palmer.

Steve Young has the highest percentage. He had a passer rating over 100 in 12 of his 49 career losses (24.5%), but his numbers are skewed by the ridiculous number of games that he had with a 100 passer rating and the overall percentage of games he won. It is hard to complain about getting let down by defense and special teams when you go 63-12 (.840) in games with a 100 passer rating.

But the only other QB with a higher percentage of his losses coming with a 100 passer rating has a career eerily similar to Carson. His career winning percentage (.494) is slightly higher than Pamler's (.474), but his career passer rating is slightly lower (86.0 to 86.9). Thirteen of his 57 career losses (22.8%) came with a passer rating of 100 compared to Palmers 11 of 51 (21.6%). He made the playoffs twice but, like Carson, lost both. Trent Green had a short run as a top QB. He finished in the top 8 in the league in both yards and QB rating every season from '02 through '05, but the Chief's defense average ranking was 29th.



Palmer played poorly last season and deserves some of the credit for the 4-12 season. However the level of blame being heaped on him by some people here is ridiculous. And when you look at his entire career it is clear that Carson Palmer was the victim of more wasted greatness than almost any other QB in history.

Last edited by fredtoast; 07-08-2011 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:11 AM
Joe from Florence Joe from Florence is offline
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

couldn't agree more with you on this one fred.

I've said it all thru the years since Carson has been here that he was the best QB (going by stats) that this team has ever had. Ken is still my favorite, but when you look back 20 years from now and take a non biased look at the QB's this franchise has had, Carson was among the best if not the best.

Last year he wasn't very good, but every QB has bad years....Boomer and Kenny had worse years than Carson had last year and they had mulitple bad years. The problem is that Carson is so fresh on the minds of people on here they let their bias and hatred for him get in the way of the facts.

A guy who becomes the 5th quickest in NFL history to throw for 100 TD's as well as the career compl % he has and the first to ever throw for over 4000 yards in a season for this franchise (and he's done it twice) along with having the most TD's in franchise history for a season (and he has 3 out of the top 3 or so ever in franchise history) as well as the highest QB rating for any QB in franchise history, as well as the highest single season QB Rating for franchise history can't be as bad as some think.

Last edited by Joe from Florence; 07-08-2011 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:18 AM
Who Dey Time Who Dey Time is offline
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

All I will say on this is that if the Mike Zimmer type defense was here from 2005-2007 you would be talking about the best three year strectch in franchise history complete with mutiple playoff wins and maybe even a Super Bowl. The defense during Carson's best years clearly held this team back.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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All I will say on this is that if the Mike Zimmer type defense was here from 2005-2007 you would be talking about the best three year strectch in franchise history complete with mutiple playoff wins and maybe even a Super Bowl. The defense during Carson's best years clearly held this team back.
So did Bob Bratkowski... it's a shame Carson won't be around to reap the benefits of that addition by subtraction
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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So did Bob Bratkowski... it's a shame Carson won't be around to reap the benefits of that addition by subtraction
I know Bratkowski bashing is as much of a sport around this board as Mike Brown bashing but the offense was pretty damn good in '05 and '06 and still good enough in '07. A competent defense during those years would have equaled a lot more wins in both the regular season and post season.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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Originally Posted by Baltus Dinglehammer View Post

Palmer played poorly last season and deserves some of the credit for the 4-12 season. However the level of blame being heaped on him by some people here is ridiculous. And when you look at his entire career it is clear that Carson Palmer was the victim of more wasted greatness than almost any other QB in history.
Fully agree. It's a team effort when you win, and also when you lose.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:23 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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Originally Posted by Who Dey Time View Post
All I will say on this is that if the Mike Zimmer type defense was here from 2005-2007 you would be talking about the best three year strectch in franchise history complete with mutiple playoff wins and maybe even a Super Bowl. The defense during Carson's best years clearly held this team back.
I hope you are not referring to the Mike Zimmer defense from last year, because that was atrocious.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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I hope you are not referring to the Mike Zimmer defense from last year, because that was atrocious.
It was bad, mainly due to injuries last year. But, the Chuck B defense was abysmal over the same 3-year stretch that our offense was quite good.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

Bob Bratkowski's predictable "Ask Madden" offensive scheme and a subpar defense ruined Carson during his best years. If Zimmer were here then and we had an actual OC things would have been different.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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Originally Posted by Baltus Dinglehammer View Post
Most people here know that Carson Palmer has had to deal with some very poor defensive play while with the Bengals. In his 6 seasons as our starting QB the average rank of the defense was 19th in scoring and 22nd in yards. Only once has he had a defense that finished in the top half of the league in scoring.

Most people also know that he has been victimized by poor special teams play. The most notable of this being the final two weeks of the '06 season when Carson's clutch last minute scoring drives that would have tied the Broncos game and won the Steelers game were ruined by a botched XP and a missed chip shot 35 yd FG. A win in either one of those games would have sent the Bengals to the playoffs in back-to-back seasons for the first time in over 25 years and capped off one of the greatest "come back" seasons ever.

And of course most people here know that Carson is one of only 3 QBs in NFL history to throw 6 td passes and still lose the game.

However most people probably don't know that in 11 of his 51 career losses (21.6%) Carson has had a passer rating of 100 or better. Only 11 other QBs in NFL history have lost more than 11 games when having a passer rating of 100, but most of them have a lot more than 51 losses. In fact among all QBs with more than 25 career losses only 2 have a higher percentage of losses with a 100 passer rating than Palmer.

Steve Young has the highest percentage. He had a passer rating over 100 in 12 of his 49 career losses (24.5%), but his numbers are skewed by the ridiculous number of games that he had with a 100 passer rating and the overall percentage of games he won. It is hard to complain about getting let down by defense and special teams when you go 63-12 (.840) in games with a 100 passer rating.

But the only other QB with a higher percentage of his losses coming with a 100 passer rating has a career eerily similar to Carson. His career winning percentage (.494) is slightly higher than Pamler's (.474), but his career passer rating is slightly lower (86.0 to 86.9). Thirteen of his 57 career losses (22.8%) came with a passer rating of 100 compared to Palmers 11 of 51 (21.6%). He made the playoffs twice but, like Carson, lost both. Trent Green had a short run as a top QB. He finished in the top 8 in the league in both yards and QB rating every season from '02 through '05, but the Chief's defense average ranking was 29th.



Palmer played poorly last season and deserves some of the credit for the 4-12 season. However the level of blame being heaped on him by some people here is ridiculous. And when you look at his entire career it is clear that Carson Palmer was the victim of more wasted greatness than almost any other QB in history.
You sure spend a lot of man-love on a guy who used to play here but doesn't any more. You're a one man crusade. Why does it matter so much to you what people think of the guy? Your love hasn't subsided. So be it. Others disagree. So be it.

All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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I hope you are not referring to the Mike Zimmer defense from last year, because that was atrocious.
No, atrocious was what we had before Zimmer got here. Last year's defense was still better than anyone that came before under Marvin, with the POSSIBLE exception of the turnover machine from 2005 (which still couldn't STOP anyone if they didn't get a turnover).
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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You sure spend a lot of man-love on a guy who used to play here but doesn't any more. You're a one man crusade. Why does it matter so much to you what people think of the guy? Your love hasn't subsided. So be it. Others disagree. So be it.

All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
It was a poor game, but everything came together in the 4th. Carson led his team down inside the red zone, Chad dropped a TD. Carson also didn't miss a chip-shot field goal. Oh, and Carson again tried to get his team down to score within 2:00 left in the game, but by that time you could tell the rest of the offense gave up.

It's how Carson played in 09. He managed the game, and in the end won it. Can't put the whole blame on him in that game. He was off-target in that game, but the whole team crumbled except for Benson
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
I never said that Carson does not deserve some blame for the Bengals failings. This post was mainly directed at the people who want to blame EVERYTHING on Carson. You know the ones who always criticize him based on the Bengals won lost record and lack of playoff wins.

And the '09 playoff loss is a good example. The whole team (except Benson) stunk it up that game. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching. Yet some people want to put all the blame on Palmer.

BTW his performance that night was better than any that Boomer had in the '88 playoff games, but a lot of people claim Boomer was better than Carson just because he could win playoff games.

Last edited by fredtoast; 07-08-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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I know Bratkowski bashing is as much of a sport around this board as Mike Brown bashing but the offense was pretty damn good in '05 and '06 and still good enough in '07. A competent defense during those years would have equaled a lot more wins in both the regular season and post season.
The playcalling was still pretty predictable but was still able to make Brat look good, and I believe most of the Bengals success was due to the strong offensive line. Once the o-line started falling apart, so did the offense as a whole (as is most often the case).

The defense last year struggled mainly due to countless offensive three-and-outs, injuries and playing the wrong players (not starting Dunlap last year was a huge ******* mistake).
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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I never said that Carson does not deserve soem blame for the bengals failings. This piost was mainly directed at the people who want to blame EVERYTHING on Carson. you know the ones who always criticize himbased on the bengasl wonn lost record and lack of playoff wins.

And the '09 playoff loss is a good example. The whole team (except Benson) stunk it up that game. Offsense, defense, special teams, and coaching. yet some people want to put all the blame on Palmer.
The kicking game was way worse than Carson that night...
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

Good stuff Fred.






















































...And Joe.
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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You sure spend a lot of man-love on a guy who used to play here but doesn't any more. You're a one man crusade. Why does it matter so much to you what people think of the guy? Your love hasn't subsided. So be it. Others disagree. So be it.

All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
hard to play in the off season.
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:35 PM
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hard to play in the off season.
Okay. Isn't going to any more. Is that better, Cpt. Technicality?
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Old 07-08-2011, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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Originally Posted by Baltus Dinglehammer View Post
I never said that Carson does not deserve some blame for the Bengals failings. This post was mainly directed at the people who want to blame EVERYTHING on Carson. You know the ones who always criticize him based on the Bengals won lost record and lack of playoff wins.

And the '09 playoff loss is a good example. The whole team (except Benson) stunk it up that game. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching. Yet some people want to put all the blame on Palmer.

BTW his performance that night was better than any that Boomer had in the '88 playoff games, but a lot of people claim Boomer was better than Carson just because he could win playoff games.
Wasn't Boomer injured in playoffs that year? I'm only 30, so idk, but my Dad always tells me Boomer was playing hurt in those playoffs.
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:19 PM
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bengals Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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So did Bob Bratkowski... it's a shame Carson won't be around to reap the benefits of that addition by subtraction
Why is it a shame because it was certainly his choice to make. He has been offered the opportunity to be around for it and he is the one that has chosen not to be.
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:21 PM
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bengals Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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Originally Posted by Baltus Dinglehammer View Post
I never said that Carson does not deserve some blame for the Bengals failings. This post was mainly directed at the people who want to blame EVERYTHING on Carson. You know the ones who always criticize him based on the Bengals won lost record and lack of playoff wins.

And the '09 playoff loss is a good example. The whole team (except Benson) stunk it up that game. Offense, defense, special teams, and coaching. Yet some people want to put all the blame on Palmer.

BTW his performance that night was better than any that Boomer had in the '88 playoff games, but a lot of people claim Boomer was better than Carson just because he could win playoff games.
I would be interested in seeing what the average ranking for Peyton Mannings defenses have been.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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You sure spend a lot of man-love on a guy who used to play here but doesn't any more. You're a one man crusade. Why does it matter so much to you what people think of the guy? Your love hasn't subsided. So be it. Others disagree. So be it.

All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
totally agree, the another game against the Bucs this year. I knew the Golden Boy was a long term bust. Come to find out he's content being a quitter.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Carson Palmer.....wasted excellence

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You sure spend a lot of man-love on a guy who used to play here but doesn't any more. You're a one man crusade. Why does it matter so much to you what people think of the guy? Your love hasn't subsided. So be it. Others disagree. So be it.

All your man-love stats are great, but there's one game that I'll never get out of my mind--the playoff game against the Jets and the nauseating performance by your boy. Please 'splain that one away with stats.
"Man love, all that man love".....:

People still bash the guy like it goes without saying that he was hot garbage. So what's the big deal if Baltus looked up some stats and made a thread to the contrary. Sorta the whole point of a forum like this.

But since you and most others jump right on the "QB stinks if the team stinks" bandwagon, you (and a lot of others do this too) like to go straight for the "latent homosexual tendencies" insinuations.

It's slightly amusing at best but very predictable.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:23 PM
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So did Bob Bratkowski... it's a shame Carson won't be around to reap the benefits of that addition by subtraction
Whose bright idea was it to change from the brutalizing ground game that got us into the playoffs in 2009 to an exclusive passing game in 2011 that got us more dropped balls than adolescence?
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:28 PM
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I would be interested in seeing what the average ranking for Peyton Mannings defenses have been.
Just curious, is that for the sake of conversation or to compare to Carson? Don't mean to be on the attack, but what does Manning have to do with this?

We can all concede that Carson is not Manning.
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